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RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 7/2/2009 2:51:55 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1234
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From: NC via NY
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You can bet Marcy Kaptur will put that money to use - to help ensure her reelection.
quote:
ORIGINAL: its_GO_time
...but I can see how some were convinced that it was the right thing to do...$$$$$ CHA-CHING! $$$$$
_____________________________
"Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen." - Martin Luther
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God
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RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 7/2/2009 9:36:31 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 4497
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
I hate to quote my own post, but there are 97 replies, on this thread, and not one Obama supporter, can tell anyone why "Cap and Trade"(sounds like a quaint little mall store, for soccer moms, don't it?) is such a great thing for the United States of America.
Do you really think anyone who believes in global warming actually reads bills or has a clue about the practical effects of this bill? It's not about that - it's about feeling good, that one is on the right side of this issue, that one's people are empowered - it's not about reality.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 7/2/2009 9:59:44 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2916
Joined: 10/12/2007
From: NYC by way of Chicago
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quote:
ORIGINAL: its_GO_time
I hate to quote my own post, but there are 97 replies, on this thread, and not one Obama supporter, can tell anyone why "Cap and Trade"(sounds like a quaint little mall store, for soccer moms, don't it?) is such a great thing for the United States of America.
-Because Florida is only 20 feet above sea level at its highest point.
-Because cap and trade is part of being a good neighbor.
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RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 7/2/2009 11:01:54 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 1844
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
-Because Florida is only 20 feet above sea level at its highest point.
So it is obvious that you accept being off by a factor of 17 and some change so it is no wonder you buy into the global warming bull (hint use google next time you make an outrageous claim).
I didn't think the highest point was as high as it is but i knew it was well above 20feet. My aircraft was parked 10 feet from the flighline elevation marker which showed 43.5 feet and while standing on that marker i could see the gulf of mexico. Goes to show you that facts need not be applied to your arguements.
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RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 7/2/2009 11:22:44 PM
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mikeman2
Posts: 155
Joined: 9/23/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: its_GO_time
I hate to quote my own post, but there are 97 replies, on this thread, and not one Obama supporter, can tell anyone why "Cap and Trade"(sounds like a quaint little mall store, for soccer moms, don't it?) is such a great thing for the United States of America.
-Because Florida is only 20 feet above sea level at its highest point.
-Because cap and trade is part of being a good neighbor.
So will cap and trade save Florida? Will it make the US a "good" neighbor? My guess is no on both counts and I think deep down you know this as well.
Really what this is all about, I think is the US wanting to be like Europe. They have socialized medicine and cap and trade. So be it. Enjoy!! I just think the politicians in this country can't stand to see the pockets of politicians in Europe lined with money from these policies and not be part of the action.
My guess is that after this is over they will begin to tell us we need to be taxed on the Oxygen we breath. After all, scientific evidence shows that to much oxygen is toxic to our system.
_____________________________
Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on.
-Winston Churchill.
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RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 7/3/2009 12:16:49 AM
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stephanos
Posts: 789
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From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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Highest point in Florida is 345 feet At Briton Hill. But since that is in the pan handle lets get some other stats for you. Orlando is 106 feet above sea level. Sugarloaf Mountian (Near Clermont, Fl just west of Orlando) is at 312 feet. I could go on...But any research into a topographic map will clearly show how stupid the "Florida is only 20 feet above sea level at its highest point" is.
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RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 7/3/2009 8:31:36 AM
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looktotheeast
Posts: 48
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The loss of millions of jobs.....skyrocketing electric bills, fuel at over $7.00 per gallon, and let's not forget the green police.
This bill is purely about squeezing more out of the citizenry and increased government control over every aspect of our lives.
Call you senator and tell them how your feel about the above. They vote on it next.
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RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 7/3/2009 8:33:20 AM
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its_GO_time
Posts: 554
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quote:
-Because Florida is only 20 feet above sea level at its highest point.
-Because cap and trade is part of being a good neighbor.
Please elaborate, on how everyone paying more for energy, and handouts for Obama cronies, will save Florida.
_____________________________
"I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism." -Ronald Reagan
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RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 7/4/2009 3:12:38 AM
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Peloton
Posts: 200
Joined: 4/5/2009
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What was that promise that was made during the Presidential campaign about NO additional taxes for those making under $250k?
That promise is now, already, a lie. Remember several years back when another sitting president said "no new taxes" and we pitched him out? But, it is ok now because it get's us to where we need to be, according to some.
(The tobacco tax was the first of many seeing many working class individuals making less than $250k smoke).
The government couldn't even run a cat house in Nevada they took over and they think they are qualified to run national medical care. Just look at the cost over runs and mismanagement of other government run money pits. What makes anyone think anything is going to change? Oh, wait a minute, we got their word on it this time, we got change. I'll keep my freedom, you keep the change.
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RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 7/4/2009 1:43:01 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 4497
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
-Because Florida is only 20 feet above sea level at its highest point.
-Because cap and trade is part of being a good neighbor.
What specifically about the current bill will make us a good (or bad) neighbor?
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 7/4/2009 5:35:46 PM
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litfire2000
Posts: 675
Joined: 7/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: its_GO_time
I hate to quote my own post, but there are 97 replies, on this thread, and not one Obama supporter, can tell anyone why "Cap and Trade"(sounds like a quaint little mall store, for soccer moms, don't it?) is such a great thing for the United States of America.
-Because Florida is only 20 feet above sea level at its highest point.
-Because cap and trade is part of being a good neighbor.
I hate to be a sticler, but, Florida's highest point is 345 feet above sea level. Highest point
_____________________________
Ps. 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem
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RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 7/4/2009 7:55:51 PM
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stephanos
Posts: 789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: litfire2000
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: its_GO_time
I hate to quote my own post, but there are 97 replies, on this thread, and not one Obama supporter, can tell anyone why "Cap and Trade"(sounds like a quaint little mall store, for soccer moms, don't it?) is such a great thing for the United States of America.
-Because Florida is only 20 feet above sea level at its highest point.
-Because cap and trade is part of being a good neighbor.
I hate to be a sticler, but, Florida's highest point is 345 feet above sea level. Highest point
Already advised Blessedinnyc about that...Still no response...
BTW the average height above sea level for Florida is 100 feet.
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RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 7/6/2009 6:40:06 PM
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its_GO_time
Posts: 554
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quote:
Please elaborate, on how everyone paying more for energy, and handouts for Obama cronies, will save Florida.
Global warming hasn't affected the crickets; they sure are a chirpin'
_____________________________
"I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism." -Ronald Reagan
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RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 7/6/2009 8:22:41 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2916
Joined: 10/12/2007
From: NYC by way of Chicago
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Sorry. I meant to say Miami.
Still, we can expect hundreds of thousands of acres of beaches to go underwater. Anyone want to estimate their value? $5K/foot of frontage on average? If so, we have 5800 miles of frontage, or 29 million feet, for a total cost of ~$150 Billion- and that's just the oceanfront property.
Let's also not forget the NYC subway system, which probably has a replacement cost on the order of $10-$20 billion in lower Manhattan.
And then there are our trade partners, many of which have coastal areas with lots of people or manufacturing. Their economies will have to shut down while people and industry migrate inland.
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RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 7/6/2009 9:37:04 PM
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its_GO_time
Posts: 554
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Ron Paul's opinion, of the Cap and Tax nightmare. from the article;
"The administration has pointed to Spain as a shining example of this type of progressive energy policy. Spain has been massively diverting capital from the private sector into politically favored environmental projects for the better part of a decade, and many in Washington apparently like what they see. However, under no circumstances should anyone serious about economic recovery emulate an economy that is now approaching 20 percent unemployment, where every green job created, eliminated 2.2 real jobs and cost around $800,000 each!"
Change we can believe in?
_____________________________
"I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism." -Ronald Reagan
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RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 7/6/2009 9:58:53 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2916
Joined: 10/12/2007
From: NYC by way of Chicago
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quote:
ORIGINAL: its_GO_time
Ron Paul's opinion, of the Cap and Tax nightmare. from the article;
"The administration has pointed to Spain as a shining example of this type of progressive energy policy. Spain has been massively diverting capital from the private sector into politically favored environmental projects for the better part of a decade, and many in Washington apparently like what they see. However, under no circumstances should anyone serious about economic recovery emulate an economy that is now approaching 20 percent unemployment, where every green job created, eliminated 2.2 real jobs and cost around $800,000 each!"
Change we can believe in?
I respect Ron Paul, but on this issue, I have to disagree.
The #1 priority should be long-term environmental, economic, and diplomatic sustainability.
Cap-and-trade helps cover parts 1 and 3, and if it hurts #2 by reducing fossil fuel consumption, that would indicate that our current economy is unsustainable.
Obviously, we have to be pragmatic about the climate issue- it's stupid to not fund economically viable nuclear power plants if we're funding wind turbines. But if global warming is real (and we may disagree about this here, but the media, gov't agencies, scientific institutions, and populace all seem to feel a certain way), it's also stupid to not try and mitigate things when global warming will certainly do hundreds of billions in damage to our economy and probably trillions. We don't have to be anywhere near as gung-ho as Spain, but the production possibilities curve suggests that by taking just small steps, the US can still make a decent sized dent.
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RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 7/7/2009 9:39:50 AM
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its_GO_time
Posts: 554
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quote:
Obviously, we have to be pragmatic about the climate issue
When has the government been pragmatic about anything? You're assuming that these bought and paid for politicians, have our best intrests at heart.
_____________________________
"I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism." -Ronald Reagan
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RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 7/7/2009 10:04:50 AM
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_jjp_
Posts: 1844
Joined: 10/25/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Obviously, we have to be pragmatic about the climate issue- it's stupid to not fund economically viable nuclear power plants if we're funding wind turbines. But if global warming is real (and we may disagree about this here, but the media, gov't agencies, scientific institutions, and populace all seem to feel a certain way), it's also stupid to not try and mitigate things when global warming will certainly do hundreds of billions in damage to our economy and probably trillions. We don't have to be anywhere near as gung-ho as Spain, but the production possibilities curve suggests that by taking just small steps, the US can still make a decent sized dent.
The vast majority of predictions on sea level rise that i find show a 5 CENTIMETER rise by 2100 and everyone of them makes a comparison to sea levels from the late 1800's which as i have stated many, many, many, many (get the point) times was the end of a very cold period so the fact that coming out of the little ice age shows some changes in ice mass and sea levels doesn't surprise me at all. With that 5 cm rise in sea level even Miami will be alright. How foolish are people going to feel if we destroy economies to curb GW and the earth does what it will do anyway.
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RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 7/7/2009 10:21:47 AM
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_jjp_
Posts: 1844
Joined: 10/25/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Sorry. I meant to say Miami.
You will have to forgive me if I am not overly amazed by the fact that an area built between the everglades and biscayne bay may one day be innundated with water again. The sea has risen and fallen covering and uncovering miami in the past so it is no leap of faith to assume that the very real possibility that it will be covered again does exist regardless of the increase of a trace gas in the atmosphere. One of the great things about the "simpletons" living in the relatively few dry areas of the southern Louisiana marshes is that they are not so arrogant or stupid that they don't realize that being surrounded by water is a pretty darn good indicator that you could easily be underwater one day.
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RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 7/7/2009 11:12:41 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 4497
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Sorry. I meant to say Miami.
Still, we can expect hundreds of thousands of acres of beaches to go underwater. Anyone want to estimate their value? $5K/foot of frontage on average? If so, we have 5800 miles of frontage, or 29 million feet, for a total cost of ~$150 Billion- and that's just the oceanfront property.
Let's also not forget the NYC subway system, which probably has a replacement cost on the order of $10-$20 billion in lower Manhattan.
And then there are our trade partners, many of which have coastal areas with lots of people or manufacturing. Their economies will have to shut down while people and industry migrate inland.
Still waiting to hear how the current bill will specifically change this?
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 7/7/2009 11:44:16 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2916
Joined: 10/12/2007
From: NYC by way of Chicago
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Still waiting to hear how the current bill will specifically change this?
Well, the current bill is cutting investments in fossil fuels; I was willing to invest in coal four years ago, but not anymore. This is ultimately going to push investments towards nuclear and (if economically viable) wind.
quote:
The vast majority of predictions on sea level rise that i find show a 5 CENTIMETER rise by 2100
The Harvard News Gazette reports that it is more likely to be between 1.5 feet and 4.5 feet. This is still much less scary than Al Gore's suggestions about what would happen if Greenland melted, but it is much more than your prediction of 5 cm.
A 1.5 foot sea level rise could take out 100 feet or more of beachfront. The ~6 inch sea level rise we've seen over the past 100 years is already threatening Venice.
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RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 7/7/2009 11:54:35 AM
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_jjp_
Posts: 1844
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
A 1.5 foot sea level rise could take out 100 feet or more of beachfront. The ~6 inch sea level rise we've seen over the past 100 years is already threatening Venice.
I could care less about beachfront property or venice for that matter. The FACT of the matter is that we are basing the need for action off of sea level data from the late 1800's (the temperature rise is based on the same), a time in which the Earth was just beginning to emerge from a prolonged cold period. The temperature of the 1900's is not THE temperature of the Earth, it is simply the temperature it happened to be once we started to become really arrogant and believe that the current temperature that we found suitable to our needs is THE temperature that the Earth should remain. That is a false belief considering that the Earth has varied in temperature for it's entire existence. Mammoths once grazed where now only barren snow and ice remain, glaciers once carved rifts much further south than any human eye has ever seen, the Earth goes through cycles .
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RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 7/7/2009 12:04:26 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2916
Joined: 10/12/2007
From: NYC by way of Chicago
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
I could care less about beachfront property or venice for that matter. The FACT of the matter is that we are basing the need for action off of sea level data from the late 1800's (the temperature rise is based on the same), a time in which the Earth was just beginning to emerge from a prolonged cold period. The temperature of the 1900's is not THE temperature of the Earth, it is simply the temperature it happened to be once we started to become really arrogant and believe that the current temperature that we found suitable to our needs is THE temperature that the Earth should remain. That is a false belief considering that the Earth has varied in temperature for it's entire existence. Mammoths once grazed where now only barren snow and ice remain, glaciers once carved rifts much further south than any human eye has ever seen, the Earth goes through cycles .
Absolutely, but they've happened on geological time. 800 years ago, before even the little Ice Age, Venice was importing spice from the Middle East. Now, it is about to be inundated.
Temperature and climate don't just *happen*. We know that bacteria and archea have enormous influence over the atmosphere. Because God made us steward of all the animals, it is only natural to assume that it might be possible for us to accidentally have the same influence over the atmosphere.
Whether or not you care about beachfront property or Venice, chances are that whatever industry you're involved in is connected in some way. Maybe you sell your wares to someone who works in a sand quarry or someone who fishes calamari, and their product gets shipped off to Venice. Or maybe you sell your wares to someone who makes beach umbrellas. The economy is more closely coupled than we think, and a loss of trillions of dollars worth of real estate and equipment would be harmful to everyone.
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