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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 6/28/2009 8:30:55 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: poetessfree
To even be having a discussion with believers about how to respect a person's passing is mind blowing. But here we are, such a shame 
Such legalism...
quote:
Simply, Michael Jackson was a man. There are those(believers), I include myself, who loved to watch him entertain( mostly as a Jackson 5), they didn't idolize him or revere him. They know to Whom they belong. And just like any other man, business CEO, athlete whom we may not know their faith, they all deserve to be respected at death, at least in death, for this is honorable unto God for it is HE Whom we should be pleasing. If we are not, then we need to take inventory of our own hearts and ask God for a renewing and a refreshing through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.
If it is God who one is to please I don't see how that is accomplished by watching a man basically play with himself routinely? Until you name the sin of speaking the truth of one dead or alive you are just making up your own rules... Given what is generally covered under the umbrella of Christians liberty around here I'd say you are not making much of point...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 6/28/2009 11:46:14 PM
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PinkCarnations
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I have no problem telling people what I think of Hitler. However, I will not talk about my negative personal thoughts on a notable figure who has only recently passed way. What purpose would it serve to hurt their family members in that way?
_____________________________
Tact is the knack of winning a point
without making an enemy.
Our Daily Bread, August 11, 2008
Roberta
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 6/29/2009 2:51:41 AM
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shakezula
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so the argument in favor of speaking ill of the dead rests on four premises:
A. idolizing celebrities is wrong. so we should make sure that we give no indication that we ever liked anything about the deceased celebrity.
B. not stating your contempt for a deceased person is inauthentic.
C. to be authentic, we must say everything on our mind about the deceased person.
D. people who try to discourage others from saying bad things about the deceased person are legalistic.
this argument takes me back to 70's. i remember hearing it from my friends in high school when we would sit around and complain about how unfair it was that we had to go to school and church and listen to our parents. i think we all have been teens (or have raised teens) that gave us this line of thinking: society was legalistic and controlling, and the only way to be "real" and 'honest" would be to say "what's really on our mind."
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watch out for the oo moo and the blehblehbleh
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 6/29/2009 5:06:42 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6471
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shakezula
so the argument in favor of speaking ill of the dead rests on four premises:
A. idolizing celebrities is wrong.
Of course...
quote:
so we should make sure that we give no indication that we ever liked anything about the deceased celebrity.
I for one have enjoyed those explaining their like for a man who played with himself on stage...
quote:
B. not stating your contempt for a deceased person is inauthentic.
Someone posting the man's songs had anything to do with the bible was pretty funny...
quote:
C. to be authentic, we must say everything on our mind about the deceased person.
How phony should one be? Let's lie and tell everyone that there is no hell and we are going to heaven...
quote:
D. people who try to discourage others from saying bad things about the deceased person are legalistic.
On what basis is whatever said a "bad thing"?
quote:
this argument takes me back to 70's. i remember hearing it from my friends in high school when we would sit around and complain about how unfair it was that we had to go to school and church and listen to our parents. i think we all have been teens (or have raised teens) that gave us this line of thinking: society was legalistic and controlling, and the only way to be "real" and 'honest" would be to say "what's really on our mind."
Nice attempt...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 6/29/2009 7:54:10 AM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4888
Joined: 4/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PinkCarnations
I have no problem telling people what I think of Hitler. However, I will not talk about my negative personal thoughts on a notable figure who has only recently passed way. What purpose would it serve to hurt their family members in that way?
Do you think it a degree of evilness that makes the distinction for you, or how recently he passed away? If Hitler had passed away yesterday, would you feel it would be too early to voice criticisms of him?
_____________________________
"A faith that can be destroyed by suffering is not faith."--Richard Wurmbrand
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Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 6/29/2009 9:34:50 AM
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PinkCarnations
Posts: 10727
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
ORIGINAL: PinkCarnations
I have no problem telling people what I think of Hitler. However, I will not talk about my negative personal thoughts on a notable figure who has only recently passed way. What purpose would it serve to hurt their family members in that way?
Do you think it a degree of evilness that makes the distinction for you, or how recently he passed away? If Hitler had passed away yesterday, would you feel it would be too early to voice criticisms of him?
It's funny that you would mention that. I was thinking about Jeffery Dahmer shortly after I logged off last night and the things that I said about him after he was killed. I am not sure if I had the Internet back then or not. I'm not so sure that I would have gone onto a website and posted negative stuff about him. However, I know that I would not have gone onto a website and posted praises about him either.
I don't know about Ed McMahon's personal life, so I can't say anything positive or negative about it.
What I do know about Farrah Fawcett and Micheal Jackson's lifestyles are immoral. So far, the only thing that I've really said in either thread is that I pass on my condolences towards their families.
Oh, I did state in the Kicka thread that I was tired of MJ being compared to Elvis because the only thing the two of them had in common was extreme fame and Lisa Marie. I don't think that is really speaking ill of him though........ maybe I'm wrong?
So, maybe it does have something to do with the degree of evilness.
_____________________________
Tact is the knack of winning a point
without making an enemy.
Our Daily Bread, August 11, 2008
Roberta
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 6/29/2009 9:45:12 AM
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sharonjef2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Slander of anyone is wrong (dead or alive).
Speaking the truth of someone is fine is it is spoken to edify the person or someone else; like towarn a parent about a particular type of child abuser, etc.
Thanks
RC
But when does it become gossip? When does talking about someone actually become gossip and therefor sin?
_____________________________
my blog......Picture This.......
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 6/29/2009 9:59:07 AM
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stampinlady
Posts: 2432
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From: Northern IL
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quote:
But when does it become gossip? When does talking about someone actually become gossip and therefor sin?
If you know it's public knowledge is it gossip? If we're speaking about MJ it's a fact that he was a drug addict. If you slam him for his drug abuse becuase you find it disgustiung and that many young fans adored him and looked up to him is that wrong? Imo, no.
_____________________________
Deb
"It's psychosomatic. You need a lobotomy. I'll get a saw !"
Calvin and Hobbes
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 6/29/2009 10:27:20 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 4070
Joined: 12/30/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: staminlady
If you know it's public knowledge is it gossip? If we're speaking about MJ it's a fact that he was a drug addict. If you slam him for his drug abuse becuase you find it disgustiung and that many young fans adored him and looked up to him is that wrong? Imo, no.
"Slam" would be the key word here, I would think.
Perhaps I'm wrong but I think there's a distinct difference between stating fact and slamming someone (dead or alive). I think there's a clear difference between when stating fact is edifying or not, as well.
And I still think that voicing my negative opinion about anyone who has died recently is, in Ps10s's words, "unspeakably tacky".
_____________________________
God made women.
If you don't like it, complain to God.
BelleWeather
What have we to fear?
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 6/29/2009 10:46:27 AM
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shakezula
Posts: 912
Joined: 3/9/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PinkCarnations
What I do know about Farrah Fawcett and Micheal Jackson's lifestyles are immoral.
did you see the documentary farrah made? she seems to have had a genuine faith, and i saw no evidence that she lived immorally.
i'm not sure what to make of jackson. the more i read about his list of ailments, the more i doubt my assumptions about him and feel sorry for him. true, he wasn't a believer. but i don't think he was like most celebrities. i think he had mental impairment, and it affected his judgment. his impairment caused him to make poor choices, rather than most celebs, where their poor choices cause their impairment. we'll find out the truth soon enough. but it seems like his addiction was due to his lupus.
to keep this in line with the topic, i will say this: it is wrong to speak ill of the dead because what we say may be based on misinformation. for those of us who want to speak ill of the dead, they need to ask themselves what they fear will happen if they don't get to say it. i think the only true motive is that they like gossip.
_____________________________
watch out for the oo moo and the blehblehbleh
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 6/29/2009 10:50:33 AM
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WhiteRoseBlessings
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Excellent post, Lioness; I agree.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
For what it's worth, my late husband was a small-town celebrity. Even now, 4 years after his death, I still meet people who knew him or knew of him. He touched many lives while he was alive. Fortunately, I haven't run into anyone yet who didn't like him (I'm sure there were people who didn't care for him; I'm not making him out to be perfect; he was simply a neat, likable human being).
Having said that . . . the very last thing I needed when he took his life was to hear idle gossip and/or speculation about him, his death or his life and events leading up to his death. I even wrote about it in my blog back then; about how very painful it was to hear all the stuff that I was hearing. And I was hearing it, both first-hand and via other ways.
The only other pain I've ever felt in my entire life that surpasses the pain of hearing people's comments was the pain I went through of actually dealing with his suicide . . . and that was beyond horrendous.
I post that here to underline how exceedingly painful people's comments about a person or a person's death can be to the surviving family members.
Lisa, to answer your question (in a roundabout way), when Eric Harris and Dylan Kebloid murdered all those students at Columbine, that was absolutely horrific. But no, I did not feel it necessary (nor appropriate) to publicly voice my opinion about them. In fact, in addition to weeping over everyone who lost their lives that day, I also cried for those boys' families (especially their mothers).
Regarding the public, it's hard enough on me sometimes to be the widow of a very congenial man who took his life. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to be the mother of a mass-murderer.
. . . Or the mother, brother, sister, father, friend of a famous celebrity who lived what appears to be a very confusing life.
Michael Jackson's friends and family needs our very earnest prayers right now. They don't need to be reading vitriolic comments that are completely void of any compassion towards them. History is history; and I'm not saying history needs to be disregarded; on the contrary. However, a message board is hardly a history book or a library.
_____________________________
❖ Let's Discuss the Advent Season ❖
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 6/29/2009 10:57:39 AM
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Qtman
Posts: 6344
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Is it wrong. I don't really know.
But, as has been pointed out by several it is totally lacking in taste.
For those who think is is o.k. I have one question. What possible good does it accomplish?
At my funeral I want the minister to minister to those left behind. I have lived my life and in doing so have preached my own funeral. What people say or do not say at that point will do me no good whatsoever. But they could cause hurt to the family. If I am or was the biggest crook and sinner in the world my family probably knew it so why remind them at this time.
_____________________________
Be what you is and not what you ain't. Cause if you ain't what you is, you is what you ain't. - Jeff Easter
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 6/29/2009 11:03:49 AM
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WhiteRoseBlessings
Posts: 18320
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Here . . . but subject to change; stay tuned
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
Sometimes silence is glorifying to God. Especially is speaking out does nothing but cause hurt to "innocent" family members.
Sam, our crossposts shows that we must be on the same brain wave today. LOL
_____________________________
❖ Let's Discuss the Advent Season ❖
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 6/29/2009 11:29:48 AM
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poetessfree
Posts: 552
Joined: 12/1/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: poetessfree
To even be having a discussion with believers about how to respect a person's passing is mind blowing. But here we are, such a shame
Such legalism...
quote:
Simply, Michael Jackson was a man. There are those(believers), I include myself, who loved to watch him entertain( mostly as a Jackson 5), they didn't idolize him or revere him. They know to Whom they belong. And just like any other man, business CEO, athlete whom we may not know their faith, they all deserve to be respected at death, at least in death, for this is honorable unto God for it is HE Whom we should be pleasing. If we are not, then we need to take inventory of our own hearts and ask God for a renewing and a refreshing through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.
If it is God who one is to please I don't see how that is accomplished by watching a man basically play with himself routinely? Until you name the sin of speaking the truth of one dead or alive you are just making up your own rules... Given what is generally covered under the umbrella of Christians liberty around here I'd say you are not making much of point...
You know very well that most of us have stated that we enjoyed the earlier work of Michael Jackson. The whole point is respecting those that have passed. Regardless of who they are. But you have answered the OP's question over & over again. Of the which, you are not making any point, at all.
_____________________________
The Sum of us is greater than all of our parts
Maya Angelou
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 6/29/2009 12:28:41 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4888
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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quote:
And I still think that voicing my negative opinion about anyone who has died recently is, in Ps10s's words, "unspeakably tacky".
Anyone? Even people like Hitler?
In the Bible, after Pharoah and his entire army died, the Israelites sang songs about it and danced and rejoiced.
_____________________________
"A faith that can be destroyed by suffering is not faith."--Richard Wurmbrand
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 6/29/2009 12:31:23 PM
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stampinlady
Posts: 2432
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Northern IL
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quote:
How does causing a dead person's family member more grief in the midst of very new grief after someone dies . . . how is this doing everything in love and for the glory of God?
Huh? I believe there are times when we should be silent and times when we should speak up.
_____________________________
Deb
"It's psychosomatic. You need a lobotomy. I'll get a saw !"
Calvin and Hobbes
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 6/29/2009 12:36:31 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6471
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sharonjef2007
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Slander of anyone is wrong (dead or alive).
Speaking the truth of someone is fine is it is spoken to edify the person or someone else; like towarn a parent about a particular type of child abuser, etc.
Thanks
RC
But when does it become gossip? When does talking about someone actually become gossip and therefor sin?
When there is no truth...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 6/29/2009 12:44:55 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6471
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shakezula
did you see the documentary farrah made? she seems to have had a genuine faith, and i saw no evidence that she lived immorally.
She posed for Playboy...
quote:
i'm not sure what to make of jackson. the more i read about his list of ailments, the more i doubt my assumptions about him and feel sorry for him. true, he wasn't a believer. but i don't think he was like most celebrities. i think he had mental impairment, and it affected his judgment. his impairment caused him to make poor choices, rather than most celebs, where their poor choices cause their impairment. we'll find out the truth soon enough. but it seems like his addiction was due to his lupus.
Interesting...
quote:
to keep this in line with the topic, i will say this: it is wrong to speak ill of the dead because what we say may be based on misinformation.
That's wrong if the person is dead or alive... You can't make it wrong simply because the person had died...
quote:
for those of us who want to speak ill of the dead, they need to ask themselves what they fear will happen if they don't get to say it. i think the only true motive is that they like gossip.
If so, your speculation of mental impairment is gossip...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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