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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 7/1/2009 3:31:19 PM
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rawr.ben
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
At times harshness is used to bring about repentance...
True, but in the case of someone who just died, the family members still have a chance for repentance, but harshness rarely, if ever, is effective during someone's grieving stage.
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rawr.ben
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 7/1/2009 3:37:09 PM
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stampinlady
Posts: 2587
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From: Northern IL
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And about repentance, we don't bring people to repentance, that's God's job.
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Deb
"When the fufillment comes the types and shadows cease."
Author unknown
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 7/1/2009 3:39:22 PM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2728
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
And about repentance, we don't bring people to repentance, that's God's job.
Also true, but of course, God uses man as a vessel to carry His message.
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 7/1/2009 3:47:33 PM
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poetessfree
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
quote:
No child or adult really needs to hear what a rascal their loved one was. Seriously...why would someone do that? Surely, not the same person who would tell them the love of Christ, only to use it to slander their loved one.
I take issue with this only because I think it could help healing wounds later on or using this person's bad lifestyle as a lesson. I don't think there's anything wrong when speaking the truth in the proper context and situation. Maybe I'm still not getting the point of this thread. 
the point of this thread, yet again, is if there isn't anything positive/uplifting/encouraging/comforting to say about someone who has recently passed, don't say anything at all. AT LEAST, for the sake of common decency, wait for the mourning period to pass, which is traditionally 30 days. When one must feel that they should "tell the truth" regarding a recently deceased person to whomever in a negative light, discussing past transgressions, I question the motive and intent of that person's heart.
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The Sum of us is greater than all of our parts
Maya Angelou
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 7/1/2009 4:02:27 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 1877
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quote:
ORIGINAL: poetessfree
the point of this thread, yet again, is if there isn't anything positive/uplifting/encouraging/comforting to say about someone who has recently passed, don't say anything at all. AT LEAST, for the sake of common decency, wait for the mourning period to pass, which is traditionally 30 days. When one must feel that they should "tell the truth" regarding a recently deceased person to whomever in a negative light, discussing past transgressions, I question the motive and intent of that person's heart.
From what I've read, that's the point that you and others are trying to make. Others disagree. The actual point of the thread from what I gathered from the OP was to discuss whether or not it's appropriate to speak ill of the dead.
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 7/1/2009 5:23:19 PM
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WhiteRoseBlessings
Posts: 18172
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From: Here . . . but subject to change; stay tuned
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
quote:
ORIGINAL: poetessfree
the point of this thread, yet again, is if there isn't anything positive/uplifting/encouraging/comforting to say about someone who has recently passed, don't say anything at all. AT LEAST, for the sake of common decency, wait for the mourning period to pass, which is traditionally 30 days. When one must feel that they should "tell the truth" regarding a recently deceased person to whomever in a negative light, discussing past transgressions, I question the motive and intent of that person's heart.
From what I've read, that's the point that you and others are trying to make. Others disagree. The actual point of the thread from what I gathered from the OP was to discuss whether or not it's appropriate to speak ill of the dead.
Yep.
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 7/2/2009 3:09:53 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6366
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
True, but in the case of someone who just died, the family members still have a chance for repentance, but harshness rarely, if ever, is effective during someone's grieving stage.
Which I never advocated.... Again I was speaking of the principle of repentance itself, since another person interjected into the subject and didn't seem to have a handle on it...
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John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 7/2/2009 3:14:23 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6366
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
And about repentance, we don't bring people to repentance, that's God's job.
Really... So when Paul told them to remove the man from the church because he refused to repent(1 Corinthians 5) they were doing something wrong? They should have left it in God's hands? Same goes for when Paul rebuked Peter regarding his pride issue with Gentiles? Paul was wrong to stir Peter to repent of his pride? I believe the word of God points out quite clearly that the body of Christ is a means of bringing about repentance, not always, but surely a means...
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John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 7/2/2009 3:23:20 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6366
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: poetessfree
the point of this thread, yet again, is if there isn't anything positive/uplifting/encouraging/comforting to say about someone who has recently passed,
Actually that is more your agenda than the point of the OP...
Here's the OP....
Does the Bible say that it is wrong to speak ill of the dead?
Is it worse to say something negative about a person after they are gone, or while they are still alive? I would think when they were dead it wouldn't matter anymore.
When they are dead, their fate is settled, one way or the other, so I'd think prayers at that point are pretty futile.
If not the Bible, from where does the idea that we mustn't speak ill of the dead come?
quote:
don't say anything at all. AT LEAST, for the sake of common decency, wait for the mourning period to pass, which is traditionally 30 days.
So when another person makes an outrages remark, a complete lie in the flow of a discussion about the person who just died and one says, that's a lie that is equates to gossip and slander/speaking ill/whatever everyone is said to be thinking the OP is referring to against the dead person?
quote:
When one must feel that they should "tell the truth" regarding a recently deceased person to whomever in a negative light, discussing past transgressions, I question the motive and intent of that person's heart.
But 31 days later it's ok to tell the truth? Will since you haven't offered a lick of scriptural support it's quite clear you are simply attempting to invoke your concept of what is right and wrong, and commonly on this forum that is called legalism...
quote:
I question the motive and intent of that person's heart.
I wonder if the judgment police will pull you over... Though given what side of the fence you are on, I doubt it since they are very selective bunch....
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 7/2/2009 9:23:57 AM
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poetessfree
Posts: 568
Joined: 12/1/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: poetessfree
the point of this thread, yet again, is if there isn't anything positive/uplifting/encouraging/comforting to say about someone who has recently passed,
Actually that is more your agenda than the point of the OP...
Here's the OP....
Does the Bible say that it is wrong to speak ill of the dead?
Is it worse to say something negative about a person after they are gone, or while they are still alive? I would think when they were dead it wouldn't matter anymore.
When they are dead, their fate is settled, one way or the other, so I'd think prayers at that point are pretty futile.
If not the Bible, from where does the idea that we mustn't speak ill of the dead come?
quote:
don't say anything at all. AT LEAST, for the sake of common decency, wait for the mourning period to pass, which is traditionally 30 days.
So when another person makes an outrages remark, a complete lie in the flow of a discussion about the person who just died and one says, that's a lie that is equates to gossip and slander/speaking ill/whatever everyone is said to be thinking the OP is referring to against the dead person?
quote:
When one must feel that they should "tell the truth" regarding a recently deceased person to whomever in a negative light, discussing past transgressions, I question the motive and intent of that person's heart.
But 31 days later it's ok to tell the truth? Will since you haven't offered a lick of scriptural support it's quite clear you are simply attempting to invoke your concept of what is right and wrong, and commonly on this forum that is called legalism...
quote:
I question the motive and intent of that person's heart.
I wonder if the judgment police will pull you over... Though given what side of the fence you are on, I doubt it since they are very selective bunch....
Here is Scripture for you--
1 Pet 1:15--But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;(my emphasis)
2nd Pet 3:11-[Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
Eph 4:31--Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Col 3:8--But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth
Col 3:12--Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Unfruitful, hurtful words to those that loved the deceased does not benefit those that mourn, but uplifting words will show them loving kindness as is befitting the heart of Christ Jesus,the Messiah and Lord.
One should study and study & study so that the verses above are not just words but words to be lived out, willingly, in all child-like humility and obedience and above all, love. Love. Lord teach us how to love the way You love us. This world needs you so much. The Body needs you, Father, so much. Have mercy now and always, in Jesus' name. Good day sov. Praying that one day, you will get It.
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The Sum of us is greater than all of our parts
Maya Angelou
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 7/2/2009 9:49:51 AM
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StephK
Posts: 2770
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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We are to speak the truth in love. If we are discussing someone famous on an internet message board then I have absolutely no problem with being frank and honest about the destructive lifestyle that led to an early demise. That is what the purpose of forums are, to discuss things.
As far as real life goes I have had to keep my mouth shut to keep from lying. I can use my father as an example of how he was perceived as an upstanding, loving and generous person publicly but he was an abusive and violent person behind closed doors. I won't lie about how he really was to his siblings. I don't bring it up as a rule though. My sister on the other hand has been quite frank with the family members who knew what was going on but refused to notice.
This pretending that everything is okay when it's not often hides sin and keeps it hidden. I can't tell my sister she is wrong when she is being honest about the true nature of my father. That is her way of healing. It's also her way of making sure that the cycle of abuse is broken in the family. Depending on the situation, silence isn't always golden sometimes it is. That is where wisdom comes in.
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Stephanie
Envy is always referred to by its political alias, "social justice."
~ Thomas Sowell
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 7/2/2009 9:53:04 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6339
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
We are to speak the truth in love. If we are discussing someone famous on an internet message board then I have absolutely no problem with being frank and honest about the destructive lifestyle that led to an early demise. That is what the purpose of forums are, to discuss things.
As far as real life goes I have had to keep my mouth shut to keep from lying. I can use my father as an example of how he was perceived as an upstanding, loving and generous person publicly but he was an abusive and violent person behind closed doors. I won't lie about how he really was to his siblings. I don't bring it up as a rule though. My sister on the other hand has been quite frank with the family members who knew what was going on but refused to notice.
This pretending that everything is okay when it's not often hides sin and keeps it hidden. I can't tell my sister she is wrong when she is being honest about the true nature of my father. That is her way of healing. It's also her way of making sure that the cycle of abuse is broken in the family. Depending on the situation, silence isn't always golden sometimes it is. That is where wisdom comes in.
Excellent post, Stephanie.
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 7/2/2009 10:30:08 AM
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Conundrum
Posts: 85
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Conundrum
You seem to be agreeing with that person, since YOU said, "Sometime the harshest words and actions are used and necessary n order to bring about repentance..." So, whose repentance do YOU have in mind?
I was speaking to the principle of repentance not to a specific person...
Well, I am. People have been using harsh words about specific recently deceased here lately. Whose repentance do they have in mind in this case? Or do they throw out the harsh words willy-nilly, scattering them like seed, in case anyone reading should read, see the "truth" and come to repentance?
quote:
quote:
How about some examples? Give me a couple circumstances.
At times harshness is used to bring about repentance...
Is harshness in "telling the truth" about the recently dead one of those "times" when harshness is used to bring about repentance?
quote:
quote:
Yes, but that doesn't excuse our saying such rotten things.
Whatever a rotten thing may be...
I don't understand this response. Please explain in 20 words or more - I'm kinda dense, and these terse responses don't work well for me. 
quote:
quote:
Passing the blame didn't work for Adam, either. 
What blame?
I said that harsh words for the dead (even if truthful) probably won't bring about the family members' repentance. You said they should look in the mirror. That "passing the blame." Perhaps "blame" is the wrong word; make it "buck."
Meaning:
- one excuses their harsh words as being a means of repentance
- the assertion that repentance won't come about, but probably anger
- those who don't repent should look in a mirror (thereby saying that, even though the harsh words don't bring to repentance thus don't have that justification, the harsh-word-speaker isn't to blame for one's harsh words - even if their basis is false - because the people should repent anyway): THIS is passing the buck.
Sorry; doesn't work. One cannot say, "well, they SHOULD repent!" as an excuse for using harsh words.
quote:
quote:
Does not focusing on a specific person's sin constitute pretending or not being honest? If I say, "I liked Hitler's mustache," does that mean I'm pretending he isn't a sinner? Do I have to qualify everything I say, such as "Hitler was a sinner, a horrid wretched sinner, but I liked his mustache"?
Depends.... Here on this forum, in this thread, no... At a Holocaust memorial, yes...
Cool! So posters on this forum don't have to qualify everything they say nicely about dead celebrities, by the same standard you used? "He was a dirty rotten sinner, but his song, 'Jump and Spin' was great"? No - they can simply say they enjoy the song, since no one will be personally disgusted and offended if there is no qualification made to the statement?
quote:
quote:
Fine. If we agree on this, then let's not play judge and jury with anyone.
You first....
Please point out where I've played judge and jury.
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 7/2/2009 11:49:28 AM
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stampinlady
Posts: 2587
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Northern IL
Status: offline
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quote:
Where did I say not to tell them? I said, at least wait until the mourning period is over so that those who did love the person can grieve in honor and peace. That is showing decency and respect to those in mourning.
And how long is that? Who said anything about spekaing up at a funeral, not me. I think this whole thread has been blown out of proportion. Where did someone suggest that we get up in the middle of a funreral and do "tell all" about the dead person? Maybe I missed alot of posts.
SoverignIsHe, really??? Paul made this man repent??? I think you ned ot reread that portion of scripture dude. No man can make another repent. Yes, we can tell them what God says, but they have to make the choice.
Steph, that was a good post.
_____________________________
Deb
"When the fufillment comes the types and shadows cease."
Author unknown
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 7/2/2009 12:04:31 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6366
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: poetessfree
Here is Scripture for you--
1 Pet 1:15--But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;(my emphasis)
2nd Pet 3:11-[Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
Eph 4:31--Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Col 3:8--But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth
Col 3:12--Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Unfruitful, hurtful words to those that loved the deceased does not benefit those that mourn, but uplifting words will show them loving kindness as is befitting the heart of Christ Jesus,the Messiah and Lord.
Because YOU don't like and or agree with what I have said doesn't mean they the above applies... As well I don't recall speaking to any loved one of any deceased person...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 7/2/2009 12:26:28 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6366
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
And how long is that? Who said anything about spekaing up at a funeral, not me. I think this whole thread has been blown out of proportion. Where did someone suggest that we get up in the middle of a funreral and do "tell all" about the dead person? Maybe I missed alot of posts.
Nobody has...
quote:
SoverignIsHe, really??? Paul made this man repent??? I think you ned ot reread that portion of scripture dude. No man can make another repent. Yes, we can tell them what God says, but they have to make the choice.
I fully understand the Scripture I mentioned and I suggest you reread what I posted... God didn't confront Peter, Paul did... So Paul, a man, was the means that led to Peter repenting... The church is to remove a person who will not repent first and foremost in hopes the person repents. That is the body of Christ, men/women, being the means that hopefully leads one to repentance... We don't make anyone repent, but it's not simply God's job as you first posted... It's in fact the job of the body, and at time bothers and sisters in Christ, as Paul did with Peter on a one one basis...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 7/2/2009 12:28:07 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6366
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
We are to speak the truth in love. If we are discussing someone famous on an internet message board then I have absolutely no problem with being frank and honest about the destructive lifestyle that led to an early demise. That is what the purpose of forums are, to discuss things.
Bingo...
quote:
As far as real life goes I have had to keep my mouth shut to keep from lying. I can use my father as an example of how he was perceived as an upstanding, loving and generous person publicly but he was an abusive and violent person behind closed doors. I won't lie about how he really was to his siblings. I don't bring it up as a rule though. My sister on the other hand has been quite frank with the family members who knew what was going on but refused to notice.
This pretending that everything is okay when it's not often hides sin and keeps it hidden. I can't tell my sister she is wrong when she is being honest about the true nature of my father. That is her way of healing. It's also her way of making sure that the cycle of abuse is broken in the family. Depending on the situation, silence isn't always golden sometimes it is. That is where wisdom comes in.
Excellent...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 7/2/2009 12:59:16 PM
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stampinlady
Posts: 2587
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Northern IL
Status: offline
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quote:
Really... So when Paul told them to remove the man from the church because he refused to repent(1 Corinthians 5) they were doing something wrong? They should have left it in God's hands? Same goes for when Paul rebuked Peter regarding his pride issue with Gentiles? Paul was wrong to stir Peter to repent of his pride? I believe the word of God points out quite clearly that the body of Christ is a means of bringing about repentance, not always, but surely a means...
What in the world does this have to do with the OP and anything in this thread? I am fully aware that God has set rules for the church and how to deal with sin, but this isn't what were talking about. AND no one can make another repent.
_____________________________
Deb
"When the fufillment comes the types and shadows cease."
Author unknown
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RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? - 7/2/2009 1:11:06 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 5581
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I fully understand the Scripture I mentioned and I suggest you reread what I posted... God didn't confront Peter, Paul did... So Paul, a man USED BY GOD, was the means that led to Peter repenting... The church is to remove a person who will not repent first and foremost in hopes the person repents. That is the body of Christ, men/women, being the INSTRUMENT BY WHICH GOD WORKS SOMETIMES means that hopefully leads one to repentance GRANTED ONLY BY GOD... We don't make anyone repent, but it's not simply God's job TO USE WHOM HE CHOOSES as you first posted... It's in fact the job of the body, and at time bothers and sisters in Christ, as Paul did with Peter on a one one basis...TO LOVING CONFRONT, REPROOF, ETC.
I know I'm going to regret this...
but I corrected changed your statement above to reflect what stampinlady and myself might agree with. Scripture references below.
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
2 Timothy 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
_____________________________
Rest assured, dear friends, that where your pleasure is, there your heart is.
- Charles Spurgeon
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those darn Klingon's, where is Capt Picard when you need him? 
, but if I feel that I need to explain to my children why know one likes grandma or uncle Joe I will in a way appropriate for their age. 
or if my teen wants to listen/watch certain stars and I know that their lifestyle isn't appropriate I WILL tell them why. I would never tell them lies or make up things about someone simply because I didn't care for them. That would be wrong. 
