Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead?

Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? (Full Version)

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Consecrated2God -> Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? (6/27/2009 2:47:59 PM)
This isn't about Michael Jackson per se, but about the deaths of the sinful in general. The Michael Jackson thread did get me to thinking about it again, but the same pattern has come up when other people have died or have been facing death. I remember similar comments being posted when Saddam Hussein was executed--that it was wrong to talk bad about him now that he was gone and that we should be said and pray for his family. Does the Bible say that it is wrong to speak ill of the dead? Is it worse to say something negative about a person after they are gone, or while they are still alive? I would think when they were dead it wouldn't matter anymore. When they are dead, their fate is settled, one way or the other, so I'd think prayers at that point are pretty futile. If not the Bible, from where does the idea that we mustn't speak ill of the dead come?

stellaluna -> RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? (6/27/2009 2:52:39 PM)
I don't know if it's scriptural as much as courtesy following a death. After all, even the nastiest people probably have family and friends (a mom?) who are sad that they have died. It does no good in the days after a death to point out how "bad" a person was to people that may be grieving. And frankly, it makes the person criticizing look pretty low and lacking compassion.

a_sparrow -> RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? (6/27/2009 3:01:14 PM)
quote: I don't know if it's scriptural as much as courtesy following a death. After all, even the nastiest people probably have family and friends (a mom?) who are sad that they have died. It does no good in the days after a death to point out how "bad" a person was to people that may be grieving. And frankly, it makes the person criticizing look pretty low and lacking compassion. Yes. Refraining from criticizing the dead immediately after the death is a matter of behaving with love toward the newly bereaved. IMO.

Miss Giggles -> RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? (6/27/2009 3:03:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stellaluna I don't know if it's scriptural as much as courtesy following a death. After all, even the nastiest people probably have family and friends (a mom?) who are sad that they have died. It does no good in the days after a death to point out how "bad" a person was to people that may be grieving. And frankly, it makes the person criticizing look pretty low and lacking compassion. I agree 100%

rawr.ben -> RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? (6/27/2009 3:21:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God Does the Bible say that it is wrong to speak ill of the dead? I don't know that the Bible really says that is so; though, I do not see any examples of speaking ill of people who had died. quote: Is it worse to say something negative about a person after they are gone, or while they are still alive? I would think when they were dead it wouldn't matter anymore. Why wouldn't it matter anymore? Because they can't hear it or defend it? Perhaps I'm old-fashioned, but I still consider there to be something in a name. I was born with a name, I will die with a name, and you can take away everything I own, but I still have my name. I prefer to not bring shame or tarnish someone's name. If anything that I have to say negatively is true, then I am not required to speak it . . . the person's actions will speak for themselves. quote: When they are dead, their fate is settled, one way or the other, so I'd think prayers at that point are pretty futile. Certainly not our prayers for those who loved them. quote: If not the Bible, from where does the idea that we mustn't speak ill of the dead come? Perhaps from superstition, perhaps simply from being well-mannered. Some may have come from pagan backgrounds, that speaking about the dead can still have an effect on their soul in some way. Wherever it came from, I still consider it to be a gentleman thing to do to show respect to those who died and those who loved them.

rcjames -> RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? (6/27/2009 3:50:01 PM)
Slander of anyone is wrong (dead or alive). Speaking the truth of someone is fine is it is spoken to edify the person or someone else; like towarn a parent about a particular type of child abuser, etc. Thanks RC

CoeurdeLeon -> RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? (6/27/2009 3:50:47 PM)
Wrong as in sin? Depends on motive IMO. Hand-rubbing glee or callous comments like "good riddance" probably are. I agree with the others that it's a matter of decency. Good manners can't be explained with biblical reasons nor do I believe they have to be. But just as some people have so little concept of good manners and decency that they see no reason to respect their elders, or hold doors or refrain from discussing bodily functions in detail at a dinner party so others see no reason for forbearing to point out the sins and flaws of the recently deceased. It's pathetic and tells far more about the character of the speaker than it does about the dead.

sirwintery -> RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? (6/27/2009 3:54:54 PM)
If the end of a person's life does not bring one to sober reflection, they must not get it. Eternal separation from God is the worst thing that can happen. For the living the loss of a loved one is devastating. So on such a somber occasion, why would any believer choose to engage in practices which Scripture condemns...scoffing, mocking, being foolish, slandering? These things aren't right for the believer when a person is alive. To answer the question in the OP, for me the idea comes from the fact that these things are inappropriate in the first place, and that is magnified by the sobering fact that their life is over. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.... (Hebrews 9:27)

sirwintery -> RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? (6/27/2009 4:28:12 PM)
Found it. The phrase comes to us from the Romans, BUT I'll let Matthew Henry's commentary on 2 Samuel 1 speak about it... This elegy proves David to have been, 1. A man of an excellent spirit, in four things:— (1.) He was very generous to Saul, his sworn enemy. Saul was his father-in-law, his sovereign, and the anointed of the Lord; and therefore, though he had done him a great deal of wrong, David does not wreak his revenge upon his memory when he is in his grave; but like a good man, and a man of honour, [1.] He conceals his faults; and, though there was no preventing their appearance in his history, yet they should not appear in this elegy. Charity teaches us to make the best we can of every body and to say nothing of those of whom we can say no good, especially when they are gone. De mortuis nil nisi bonum—Say nothing but good concerning the dead. We ought to deny ourselves the satisfaction of making personal reflections upon those who have been injurious to us, much more drawing their character thence, as if every man must of necessity be a bad man that has done ill by us. Let the corrupt part of the memory be buried with the corrupt part of the man—earth to earth, ashes to ashes; let the blemish be hidden and a veil drawn over the deformity.

navyblueret -> RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? (6/27/2009 4:38:34 PM)
Shalom, all. Please look at: Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Does it say the 'brother' must be living, or that all is OK, if the brother has died? Nope. We presume 'alive,' but no where does it say. OK, the verse alludes to the fact the 'brother' can still hear your voice, thus alive. All a person can accomplish by denigrating the dead, be the words true, or false, is to place pain upon an innocent party, usually someone related to the deceased, or a close friend. The act does nothing but diminish the character of the speaker, as a person unable to forgive another, and thus, perhaps, unforgivable by the Lord (as in 'as we forgive our debtors'). rcjames says rightly, do not slander, even if correct, alive or dead, except to warn others of potential danger (I paraphrase a bit). A thought just popped in: Do not say about someone anything you would not say to that someone when they have a weapon in their hands. Woooo-Eeeee! That will quiet down a party.[:D] In Messiah. Arley

poetessfree -> RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? (6/27/2009 4:57:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stellaluna I don't know if it's scriptural as much as courtesy following a death. After all, even the nastiest people probably have family and friends (a mom?) who are sad that they have died. It does no good in the days after a death to point out how "bad" a person was to people that may be grieving. And frankly, it makes the person criticizing look pretty low and lacking compassion. Yes it does. Agreeing 100%

poetessfree -> RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? (6/27/2009 4:59:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon Wrong as in sin? Depends on motive IMO. Hand-rubbing glee or callous comments like "good riddance" probably are. I agree with the others that it's a matter of decency. Good manners can't be explained with biblical reasons nor do I believe they have to be. But just as some people have so little concept of good manners and decency that they see no reason to respect their elders, or hold doors or refrain from discussing bodily functions in detail at a dinner party so others see no reason for forbearing to point out the sins and flaws of the recently deceased. It's pathetic and tells far more about the character of the speaker than it does about the dead. Absolutely!!

poetessfree -> RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? (6/27/2009 5:01:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SirWintery Found it. The phrase comes to us from the Romans, BUT I'll let Matthew Henry's commentary on 2 Samuel 1 speak about it... This elegy proves David to have been, 1. A man of an excellent spirit, in four things:— (1.) He was very generous to Saul, his sworn enemy. Saul was his father-in-law, his sovereign, and the anointed of the Lord; and therefore, though he had done him a great deal of wrong, David does not wreak his revenge upon his memory when he is in his grave; but like a good man, and a man of honour, [1.] He conceals his faults; and, though there was no preventing their appearance in his history, yet they should not appear in this elegy. Charity teaches us to make the best we can of every body and to say nothing of those of whom we can say no good, especially when they are gone. De mortuis nil nisi bonum—Say nothing but good concerning the dead. We ought to deny ourselves the satisfaction of making personal reflections upon those who have been injurious to us, much more drawing their character thence, as if every man must of necessity be a bad man that has done ill by us. Let the corrupt part of the memory be buried with the corrupt part of the man—earth to earth, ashes to ashes; let the blemish be hidden and a veil drawn over the deformity. Excellent!!

Ps103 -> RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? (6/27/2009 10:23:15 PM)
I would say it is unspeakably tacky, hurtful to family that is mourning, and of absolutely no benefit to anyone (except possibly the ego of the person doing the speaking). So, while there may not be specific Scripture that says not to speak ill of the dead, to do so goes against Scriptural principles, so I would refrain--particularly in the immediate period following a death.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? (6/27/2009 11:49:29 PM)
All we have to do is change "speaking ill(the truth) of the dead" to a host of many other actions and you'd end up with people speaking of legalism regarding some folks saying it's wrong to do so...

rawr.ben -> RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? (6/28/2009 1:14:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe All we have to do is change "speaking ill(the truth) of the dead" to a host of many other actions and you'd end up with people speaking of legalism regarding some folks saying it's wrong to do so... No. Some of us follow the "if you can't say something nice . . . " rule. Even if it is true, bad talking someone on the day they died is tactless.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? (6/28/2009 1:54:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rawr.ben No. Some of us follow the "if you can't say something nice . . . " rule. Fine and dandy, but forcing your rules on others is generally considered legalism around here...

rawr.ben -> RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? (6/28/2009 3:29:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: rawr.ben No. Some of us follow the "if you can't say something nice . . . " rule. Fine and dandy, but forcing your rules on others is generally considered legalism around here... I don't think I have the authoritative power to force anyone to do anything on here, but I have asked nicely at times [:)]

ManimalX -> RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? (6/28/2009 4:27:07 AM)
I think there is a pretty distinct line between speaking the truth and gloating over the eternal damnation of a lost soul, as CoeurdeLeon mentioned. a_sparrow also wisely hit on the key issue: it isn't about the dead, but the survivors. As stellaluna pointed out, a reaction of "Well, that sinner is burning in hell now. They sure got what they deserved", is severely uncompassionate. I would add to that description by calling it grotesquely ungraceful and extremely ineffective. There are a few in particular on these forums who are really bad at doing this. Is a nearly contemptible mockery of an unsaved soul going to Hell really going to be beneficial to your witness for Christ? When the grieving family looks to the people who claim to be ambassadors for the God who isn't only Just, but is Love, Mercy, Grace, and Life... and all they find is condemnation and doom? Does that help them know the God who mourns the death of the wicked and who sacrificed His only Son to make a way for any who would accept the gift? There is a way to speak the truth in love, and there is a way to speak the truth in hate, and it is sad that some can't tell the difference. It is not at all becoming of a Christ follower to bellow about "the truth" at the expense of "the way and the life" and in the absence of "love". I think someone famous once aptly pointed out that a message without love is nothing more than a noisy gong and clanging symbol.... Of COURSE the person who died without knowing Christ is destined for eternal damnation, but there is a graceful and loving way to present that truth. It is called "tact", and is a hard skill to master. I suggest certain people who have a problem with tact do some in-depth research into the efforts of Christian missionaries in Japan, China, and other Asian nations that practice a form of ancestor worship. You will find that missionaries who towed the line "All of your ancestors whom you love so much died without a savior and can't hear your prayers because they are burning forever in Hell... now, who wants to know Jesus? Tea anybody?" were severely unsuccessful and did more to harbor resentment towards Christ than attraction. However, the good folks who were able to convey the exact same truth but in a compassionate and mournful way saw many more true conversions. I am all for a little more "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God"..... when the time and place are appropriate.

WhiteRoseBlessings -> RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? (6/28/2009 6:09:21 AM)
Many excellent posts, so far. quote: ORIGINAL: SirWintery If the end of a person's life does not bring one to sober reflection, they must not get it. Eternal separation from God is the worst thing that can happen. For the living the loss of a loved one is devastating. So on such a somber occasion, why would any believer choose to engage in practices which Scripture condemns...scoffing, mocking, being foolish, slandering? These things aren't right for the believer when a person is alive. To answer the question in the OP, for me the idea comes from the fact that these things are inappropriate in the first place, and that is magnified by the sobering fact that their life is over. A[nd i]as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.... (Hebrews 9:27) I think I'll just echo Wintery on this.

stampinlady -> RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? (6/28/2009 10:41:22 AM)
I don't think it's wrong if it's truthful and done out of love for the family.

Prairiehiker -> RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? (6/28/2009 12:15:10 PM)
Is speaking ill of someone who just passed away mean there's a part of them that are rejoicing because the person is dead? I think everyone who speaks ill of a dead person has no clue about the grace we've been given. Remember that we were all destined for hell if it weren't for the grace of God and anyone who can speak ill of dead person doesn't have a clue what eternity in hell means. I used to be angry at the thought that Hitler or Hugh Heffner, or that guy who imprisoned his daughter in a dungeon for 18 years might go to heaven. But if you imagine what hell is like...a life without all the goodness of God for all eternity...you would not speak ill of them. You would mourn for them. And if you imagine that a person is going to be in heaven, you'd rejoice for them. Is it wrong, meaning is it a sin? God would judge the condition of their hearts, but I think it is wise to ban those people from attending my funeral [:D]

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? (6/28/2009 1:37:27 PM)
I believe a lot of the issue here is people reflect on themselves when people die and realize they offered the people who have passed along nothing in the way a hand in a possible way with God... I image a lot of folks who supported and cheered on a Mr. Jackson while he blazed a path to wrath are now thinking of God, yet prior had no time for God regarding Mr Jackson, since their focus was on the man in question...

poetessfree -> RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? (6/28/2009 6:54:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ManimalX I think there is a pretty distinct line between speaking the truth and gloating over the eternal damnation of a lost soul, as CoeurdeLeon mentioned. a_sparrow also wisely hit on the key issue: it isn't about the dead, but the survivors. As stellaluna pointed out, a reaction of "Well, that sinner is burning in hell now. They sure got what they deserved", is severely uncompassionate. I would add to that description by calling it grotesquely ungraceful and extremely ineffective. There are a few in particular on these forums who are really bad at doing this. Is a nearly contemptible mockery of an unsaved soul going to Hell really going to be beneficial to your witness for Christ? When the grieving family looks to the people who claim to be ambassadors for the God who isn't only Just, but is Love, Mercy, Grace, and Life... and all they find is condemnation and doom? Does that help them know the God who mourns the death of the wicked and who sacrificed His only Son to make a way for any who would accept the gift? There is a way to speak the truth in love, and there is a way to speak the truth in hate, and it is sad that some can't tell the difference. It is not at all becoming of a Christ follower to bellow about "the truth" at the expense of "the way and the life" and in the absence of "love". I think someone famous once aptly pointed out that a message without love is nothing more than a noisy gong and clanging symbol.... Of COURSE the person who died without knowing Christ is destined for eternal damnation, but there is a graceful and loving way to present that truth. It is called "tact", and is a hard skill to master. I suggest certain people who have a problem with tact do some in-depth research into the efforts of Christian missionaries in Japan, China, and other Asian nations that practice a form of ancestor worship. You will find that missionaries who towed the line "All of your ancestors whom you love so much died without a savior and can't hear your prayers because they are burning forever in Hell... now, who wants to know Jesus? Tea anybody?" were severely unsuccessful and did more to harbor resentment towards Christ than attraction. However, the good folks who were able to convey the exact same truth but in a compassionate and mournful way saw many more true conversions. I am all for a little more "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God"..... when the time and place are appropriate. Superbly written, God bless.

poetessfree -> RE: Is it wrong to speak ill of the dead? (6/28/2009 7:15:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe I believe a lot of the issue here is people reflect on themselves when people die and realize they offered the people who have passed along nothing in the way a hand in a possible way with God... I image a lot of folks who supported and cheered on a Mr. Jackson while he blazed a path to wrath are now thinking of God, yet prior had no time for God regarding Mr Jackson, since their focus was on the man in question... I would venture to say that a lot of the issues are not about believers idolizing a man, because that is what much of your disdain seems to be, if I am wrong, apologies, but about believers liking secular celebrities. The issue is that he was an entertainer, some people loved watching him dance, his choregraphed work, his songs, his videos, etc. Much when people love to watch their favorite sports person. So let us shift to the other Mike. There are thousands of kids who still wear Michael Jordan tennis shoes and will pay a high price even as much as $500 a pair. What about those who love Miley Cyrus? Or Lebron James? Or Derek Jeter? Or Tony Romo? Or Wayne Gretsky?(sorry not up on the latest Hockey). Or American Idols? I speak only of believers in Christ who happen to like certain entertainers, athletes, entrepreneurs. Some people admire Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, etc. Not everyone wants to emulate them but simply to model their success for their own businesses or careers. Will we speak ill of Jordan when he passes just because he wasn't a little weird? Or how about Elvis? Elvis OD'd but I am sure he was respected in death. To even be having a discussion with believers about how to respect a person's passing is mind blowing. But here we are, such a shame [>:] Simply, Michael Jackson was a man. There are those(believers), I include myself, who loved to watch him entertain( mostly as a Jackson 5), they didn't idolize him or revere him. They know to Whom they belong. And just like any other man, business CEO, athlete whom we may not know their faith, they all deserve to be respected at death, at least in death, for this is honorable unto God for it is HE Whom we should be pleasing. If we are not, then we need to take inventory of our own hearts and ask God for a renewing and a refreshing through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

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