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RE: Let me just say this - 7/7/2009 6:01:21 PM
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eschatologist
Posts: 54
Joined: 1/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AMLee
All of these "numbers" and "dates" and "signs" are pure nonsense. If God wanted us to know the exact date and time He would have told us but He didn't....He didn't even tell his own Son! And what does it matter....if your heart is right with God you shouldn't have a problem. And besides, none of us are promised tomorrow. You just might die before any of this comes to pass!
Sorry, but I disagree with your first sentence.
Matthew 24: 32-33, "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."
Jesus is saying here that just like we watch for signs of springtime, the leaves budding, the flowers blooming, etc. so we should watch for signs that His second coming is close. Was Jesus talking nonsense when He said this?
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RE: Let me just say this - 7/7/2009 10:39:40 PM
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DoveMinistries
Posts: 308
Joined: 6/8/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: DoveMinistries
2 Peter 3:8
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
quote:
Just because the bible says that a day is like a thousands years does not mean that a day is exactly a thousand years.
To God that is what it is and what it mean's. And to go on, do you believe then that God did all is work in six days, or is it an expression not literal?
Peter say's do not forget this one thing. Wonder why, he would think it is important enough to remember?
God Bless
R Dove
I dont think that for God one day is literally a thousand years. I think it speaks to the fact that since God operates out of eternity, where time has no meaning because there is no time, one day has no more significance than a thousand years, or even a million.
You are correct. So whats your take on God telling the end from the begining?
God Bless
R Dove
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: Let me just say this - 7/7/2009 11:00:14 PM
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AMLee
Posts: 34
Joined: 4/7/2009
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Let me straighten this up. I never said that the words of the Lord God Almighty were non-sense. I was thinking more like the people that get up and try to make predictions about dates and saying that it had better happen by _______. Or it will happen in the year ______. This is the nonsense I was referring to. I know that we are to be watchful of signs and such. But some people prefer to just make a good book sell. I just know that we should alwyas have our hearts and lives in check with God no matter what. We are not promised tomorrow anyway! Look up and be ready. I prefer it to happen later than sooner.....probably for selfish reasons. I have quiet a few family members that I am praying for and i would love nothing more than to have that peace in my heart.
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RE: Let me just say this - 7/8/2009 8:03:56 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 808
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, Reform_Dave (and you, too, WesP).
quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: DoveMinistries
2 Peter 3:8
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
quote:
Just because the bible says that a day is like a thousands years does not mean that a day is exactly a thousand years.
To God that is what it is and what it mean's. And to go on, do you believe then that God did all is work in six days, or is it an expression not literal?
Peter say's do not forget this one thing. Wonder why, he would think it is important enough to remember?
God Bless
R Dove
I dont think that for God one day is literally a thousand years. I think it speaks to the fact that since God operates out of eternity, where time has no meaning because there is no time, one day has no more significance than a thousand years, or even a million.
Sorry, but God does NOT "operate out of eternity" nor does ""time have no meaning because there is no time" in eternity. While time is merely another dimension to God, like length, width, and depth are dimensions to us, God still respects that dimension and measures it!
The concept "there is no time" in eternity comes from a misquoted verse in Revelation:
Rev 10:5-7
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
KJV
However, this verse (vs. 6) does NOT mean that time will no longer exist; it means that there will be NO FURTHER DELAY!
Thus, eternity is not the absence of time; it's an infinite amount of time! How do we know this? The answer is simple: We have verses that describe an eternity of time measurements:
Isa 66:22-23
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
KJV
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Let me just say this - 7/8/2009 9:53:21 PM
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Reform_Dave
Posts: 319
Joined: 6/14/2009
From: Where the mountains touch the sky.
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Reform_Dave (and you, too, WesP).
quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: DoveMinistries
2 Peter 3:8
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
quote:
Just because the bible says that a day is like a thousands years does not mean that a day is exactly a thousand years.
To God that is what it is and what it mean's. And to go on, do you believe then that God did all is work in six days, or is it an expression not literal?
Peter say's do not forget this one thing. Wonder why, he would think it is important enough to remember?
God Bless
R Dove
I dont think that for God one day is literally a thousand years. I think it speaks to the fact that since God operates out of eternity, where time has no meaning because there is no time, one day has no more significance than a thousand years, or even a million.
Sorry, but God does NOT "operate out of eternity" nor does ""time have no meaning because there is no time" in eternity. While time is merely another dimension to God, like length, width, and depth are dimensions to us, God still respects that dimension and measures it!
The concept "there is no time" in eternity comes from a misquoted verse in Revelation:
Rev 10:5-7
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
KJV
However, this verse (vs. 6) does NOT mean that time will no longer exist; it means that there will be NO FURTHER DELAY!
Thus, eternity is not the absence of time; it's an infinite amount of time! How do we know this? The answer is simple: We have verses that describe an eternity of time measurements:
Isa 66:22-23
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
KJV
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
Actually i believe your view of eternity as infinite time is correct, after having read more about it, yet interestingly enough i believe my main point still stands in that with an infinite amount of time, a thousand years has no more significance than one day. Think of it like this, if you had an unending supply of money, then one million dollars has little, if any, value. Thanks for your post Retrobyter, eternity is even more interesting to me with your view on it. It's going to be quite something to experience 
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RE: Let me just say this - 7/8/2009 10:53:42 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 808
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, Reform_Dave.
Good enough! You're welcome, and you are SO right! It's going to be so much fun; I can't wait!!!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Let me just say this - 7/9/2009 10:02:21 AM
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WesP
Posts: 1440
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
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Good morning, Roy!
I am still there with you. I cannot disagree with your position in any way. There is always more to learn and consider. Thanks!
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
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RE: Let me just say this - 7/10/2009 7:22:14 AM
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SonicStudent
Posts: 728
Joined: 10/20/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AMLee
Let me straighten this up. I never said that the words of the Lord God Almighty were non-sense. I was thinking more like the people that get up and try to make predictions about dates and saying that it had better happen by _______. Or it will happen in the year ______. This is the nonsense I was referring to. I know that we are to be watchful of signs and such. But some people prefer to just make a good book sell. I just know that we should always have our hearts and lives in check with God no matter what. We are not promised tomorrow anyway! Look up and be ready. I prefer it to happen later than sooner.....probably for selfish reasons. I have quiet a few family members that I am praying for and i would love nothing more than to have that peace in my heart.
This I agree with. As if I'd have written it myself. I get fed up with 'end time' authors. Note I didn't say eschatology authors. Because the dates and scenarios they present seem to be without sober learning or any real faithfulness to God's word. They create a scenario, loosely from scripture, make approx dates, then when world situations change, or their dates arrive without things going to their plan, do they say sorry and retreat? NO! Of corse not! They write a new book!
I too dearly want to be with the Lord and this life of temptation over, but at the same time, I have young children. 5 of them! I want to see them grow, and experience being a grandad, and I don't feel that is wrong, but if now were the end or soon, I also know that what the Lord will give me will by far be greater than this life. Than you God :)
Personally, I don't believe that the word has to mean 1,000 years being a day as literal to the day by any means. However, it may be a scale that may be close, although it's obvious to me that he's saying he is in eternity and time is by no means the same as on earth.
Blessings
Mark
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies. Rom 8:33
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RE: Let me just say this - 7/10/2009 10:29:39 AM
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SonicStudent
Posts: 728
Joined: 10/20/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Sorry, but God does NOT "operate out of eternity" nor does ""time have no meaning because there is no time" in eternity. While time is merely another dimension to God, like length, width, and depth are dimensions to us, God still respects that dimension and measures it!
The concept "there is no time" in eternity comes from a misquoted verse in Revelation:
Rev 10:5-7
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
KJV
However, this verse (vs. 6) does NOT mean that time will no longer exist; it means that there will be NO FURTHER DELAY!
Thus, eternity is not the absence of time; it's an infinite amount of time! How do we know this? The answer is simple: We have verses that describe an eternity of time measurements:
Isa 66:22-23
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
KJV
Hi Roy :) How are you doing these days bro'?
Yep, I agree here, It makes no sense to say there will be no time in Heaven, or the phrase 'forever and ever' would mean nothing. I do think it is silly though, when folks try to indicate that, a thousand years means 'to the day' and try to work out the Lords return and other stuff.
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies. Rom 8:33
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RE: Let me just say this - 7/11/2009 8:40:45 PM
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AvgJoe
Posts: 34
Joined: 4/22/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AMLee
All of these "numbers" and "dates" and "signs" are pure nonsense. If God wanted us to know the exact date and time He would have told us but He didn't....He didn't even tell his own Son! And what does it matter....if your heart is right with God you shouldn't have a problem. And besides, none of us are promised tomorrow. You just might die before any of this comes to pass!
I just read an article in Christian Odyssey magazine on this very subject. It speaks volumes to your statement. You can check it out here~~~> Where are we now in prophecy?
What many people don’t understand is that “When?” is not the central point of Bible prophecy. The central point of prophecy is “Who?”.
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RE: Let me just say this - 7/12/2009 10:17:31 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2233
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AMLee
All of these "numbers" and "dates" and "signs" are pure nonsense. If God wanted us to know the exact date and time He would have told us but He didn't....He didn't even tell his own Son!
Greetings
quote:
He didn't even tell his own Son!
Where is this written?
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Let me just say this - 7/12/2009 10:43:26 AM
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Reform_Dave
Posts: 319
Joined: 6/14/2009
From: Where the mountains touch the sky.
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: AMLee
All of these "numbers" and "dates" and "signs" are pure nonsense. If God wanted us to know the exact date and time He would have told us but He didn't....He didn't even tell his own Son!
Greetings
quote:
He didn't even tell his own Son!
Where is this written?
LG
Mark 13:29-32
"Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door.I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
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RE: Let me just say this - 7/12/2009 12:50:28 PM
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AvgJoe
Posts: 34
Joined: 4/22/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: AMLee
All of these "numbers" and "dates" and "signs" are pure nonsense. If God wanted us to know the exact date and time He would have told us but He didn't....He didn't even tell his own Son!
Greetings
quote:
He didn't even tell his own Son!
Where is this written?
LG
Mark 13:29-32
"Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door.I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
The commentary, in Nelson's NKJV Study Bible, for verse 32 reads;
As one who was fully God and at the same time fully man, Jesus possessed all the attributes of deity, including omnipotence and omniscience. He knew what was in people's hearts (2:8) and He could still the waves (4:39). When Jesus became a man, however, He voluntarily placed certain knowledge in the hands of the Father (Phil. 2:5-8). Of course today, glorified in heaven, Jesus now knows the day and hour of His return.
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RE: Let me just say this - 7/12/2009 1:25:43 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2233
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: AMLee
All of these "numbers" and "dates" and "signs" are pure nonsense. If God wanted us to know the exact date and time He would have told us but He didn't....He didn't even tell his own Son!
Greetings
quote:
He didn't even tell his own Son!
Where is this written?
LG
Mark 13:29-32
"Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door.I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
Greetings
Thanks Reform_Dave
If I may.. 
This reference in Mark 13 is speaking of the restoration of Israel to the land, by reason the Son doesnt know is because Jesus is hidden from their eyes... and in like manner the time of the restoration of Israel to the land.... is hidden from the Sons eyes.....
The references in Matt 24 amd Mark 13 are different;
One is speaking beforehand = But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone
And one speaking after the occurrence =36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
So with that reference of the Son removed from the mention of not knowing the day or the hour in verse 36 of Matt 24 this is telling us prophetically that this is after the occurrence...and suggests that Mark 13... had already occurred...
Mark 13:29-32
"Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door.
I tell you the truth; this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
But if read the reference to Son is removed.... because Jesus tells them in verse 37 but the reference is speaking of its branch that has already become tender and puts forth leaves, (THEN) you know that summer is near.
SO we have in Mark the restoration to the land of those who were going to be restored at a time that was not know to Jesus... but the Father only
and we have in Matt 24 the rest of the prophecy in Matt 24 where Jesus is telling us that when we see them beginning “to put forth leaves”=..Which means to prosper (which is happing right now as we speak)
.....In order for them to put forth leaves and prosper.... the restoration must have already occurred
SO
Verse 33 adds this reference = 33 So you also, .....This is an addition to that which is not mentioned in Mark...
and in like manner is speaking of a different subject... and along with the removal of the mention of the day and hour being not known by the Son of Man in Mat 24 ... can be seen simply by Jesus is giving the prophecy beginning in verse 37
Matthew 24:32-51
32 "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.
33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors!
34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. 36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
37 ....But...
as the days of Noah were ...so also will.... the coming of the Son of Man be.
quote:
He didn't even tell his own Son!
Which is rather assuming at times... when we get statements like these popping in..
I mean even in the rest of passage in Matt 24 Jesus implies that will be made aware to the hour...
50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that ....”he is not aware of,”
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Let me just say this - 7/12/2009 1:32:03 PM
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SonicStudent
Posts: 728
Joined: 10/20/2008
Status: offline
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I really don't see the problem here! Jesus obviously wanted us to recognise the times as they approached, and His instruction is to not be sleeping as to ot even recognise the evil day as it approaches. I understand why the Father would not want us to get bogged down with fruitless attempts at guessing the actual day or the hour, even if we could know, what good would it do? it'll happen anyway!
However, He also gave us knowledge of conditions that would 'all' be occurring at the same time for that final generation, and obviously He wasn't talking of a general evil, but increased compared to normal, and probably more or less world wide as opposed to simply a couple of nations going through these things at any given time, as throughout history.
Jesus wasn't simply having a chat with the disciples and thought He'd intrigue them with a couple of signs that He knew would be present throughout the whole Christian age anyway.
He 'must' have been stamping a hallmark on that given generation, a hallmark of signs as never witnessed with such intensity or so diversely across the globe that we were obviously intended to be awake enough to recognise, and it's a witness and call to drop any lukewarm attitudes to God and get our lives, faith and dependency in Christ knitted into Him, to drop our love affair with the world and renew our first love, hope and be ready for our inheritance that was won us 'completely' by Jesus.
Theonly real question here is - 'Are we seeing these signs increased and in more places than ever before!
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies. Rom 8:33
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RE: Let me just say this - 7/12/2009 1:37:40 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Prophecy is a very important part of the Holy Bible why shouldn't we be concerned with it?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Let me just say this - 7/12/2009 2:00:47 PM
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Reform_Dave
Posts: 319
Joined: 6/14/2009
From: Where the mountains touch the sky.
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: AMLee
All of these "numbers" and "dates" and "signs" are pure nonsense. If God wanted us to know the exact date and time He would have told us but He didn't....He didn't even tell his own Son!
Greetings
quote:
He didn't even tell his own Son!
Where is this written?
LG
Mark 13:29-32
"Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door.I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
Greetings
Thanks Reform_Dave
If I may..
This reference in Mark 13 is speaking of the restoration of Israel to the land, by reason the Son doesnt know is because Jesus is hidden from their eyes... and in like manner the time of the restoration of Israel to the land.... is hidden from the Sons eyes.....
The references in Matt 24 amd Mark 13 are different;
One is speaking beforehand = But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone
And one speaking after the occurrence =36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
So with that reference of the Son removed from the mention of not knowing the day or the hour in verse 36 of Matt 24 this is telling us prophetically that this is after the occurrence...and suggests that Mark 13... had already occurred...
Mark 13:29-32
"Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door.
I tell you the truth; this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
But if read the reference to Son is removed.... because Jesus tells them in verse 37 but the reference is speaking of its branch that has already become tender and puts forth leaves, (THEN) you know that summer is near.
SO we have in Mark the restoration to the land of those who were going to be restored at a time that was not know to Jesus... but the Father only
and we have in Matt 24 the rest of the prophecy in Matt 24 where Jesus is telling us that when we see them beginning “to put forth leaves”=..Which means to prosper (which is happing right now as we speak)
.....In order for them to put forth leaves and prosper.... the restoration must have already occurred
SO
Verse 33 adds this reference = 33 So you also, .....This is an addition to that which is not mentioned in Mark...
and in like manner is speaking of a different subject... and along with the removal of the mention of the day and hour being not known by the Son of Man in Mat 24 ... can be seen simply by Jesus is giving the prophecy beginning in verse 37
Matthew 24:32-51
32 "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.
33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors!
34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. 36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
37 ....But...
as the days of Noah were ...so also will.... the coming of the Son of Man be.
quote:
He didn't even tell his own Son!
Which is rather assuming at times... when we get statements like these popping in..
I mean even in the rest of passage in Matt 24 Jesus implies that will be made aware to the hour...
50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that ....”he is not aware of,”
LG
Thanks Gypsy, i will read more about this when i get a spare moment. I appreciate your reply. Im always willing to learn.
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