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RE: Muslim Demographics - A Christian Response - 7/14/2009 1:55:40 PM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
Actually, I started this thread to open people's eyes to the fact that fear-mongering is used to scare Christians into evangelism of Muslims. Not to say that there is no such thing as a good Muslim and the thread got hijacked by the Muslim haters.
ROFL! One post in ten does not equal domination.
Sorry, but why do people make such sweeping comments like this? There are extremists on both ends of all issues. We should speak of the issues without antagonism to opposing views. We are to spread the truth in love.
BTW, God bless you for your missionsary work, TheosCentric.
Sure there are extremists on both sides of the issue, but there are some who quickly rose to the defense of the video in question, even suggesting that it wasn't using fear to try to get people to evangelize Muslims, which it is clearly trying to do.
I don't know, maybe I am making a sweeping generalization, but there are too many people on this board who seem to think that all Muslims are terrorists and their countries should be turned into parking lots, a few of which have posted in this very thread. It makes me ill at times to know that there are professing Christians who would harbor such hate.
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God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: Muslim Demographics - A Christian Response - 7/14/2009 3:35:07 PM
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WesP
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quote:
there are too many people on this board who seem to think that all Muslims are terrorists and their countries should be turned into parking lots, a few of which have posted in this very thread. It makes me ill at times to know that there are professing Christians who would harbor such hate.
I understand and agree with you completely, but let me share something with you. In myself, I find it difficult to avoid angry judgment of child molesters, sociopaths, etc. Historically, they remain unrepentant and counterproductive for the duration of their lives, but it is not my place to judge them. I can certainly stand in judgment of their actions, but beyond that is beyond my scope. I battle my flesh in that judgment even though I have no authority. My point is that all of us have certain things that get us riled up. Should we speak wrathful judgments on whole groups of people? No. Should we evangelize them? Sure.
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Peace,
Wes
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RE: Muslim Demographics - A Christian Response - 7/14/2009 4:05:59 PM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
but there are some who quickly rose to the defense of the video in question, even suggesting that it wasn't using fear to try to get people to evangelize Muslims, which it is clearly trying to do.
I disagree. Ignorance would be the only avenue for fear. I see it as a list of facts. There are myriads of other facts out there that show us other situations that demand evangelization. I see it as a spotlight on certain failures in spreading the word of God. Regardless of what anyone tells me, there is no reason to have fear. God is the Protector of His people. A few moments of pain stacked against an eternity of celebration leaves little to bother about. 
Well, the problem is that the facts used in the video have been clearly manipulated in order to show the rise in Muslims as higher than what it is. Such as, they used the demographics for one city for a whole country. IOW, the video is lying. Which is my point.
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God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: Muslim Demographics - A Christian Response - 7/14/2009 4:49:55 PM
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WesP
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quote:
Well, the problem is that the facts used in the video have been clearly manipulated in order to show the rise in Muslims as higher than what it is. Such as, they used the demographics for one city for a whole country. IOW, the video is lying. Which is my point.
I have not attempted to verify any facts, so I cannot respond to that. I just took the whole video as display of increase vs. decrease.
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Wes
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RE: Muslim Demographics - A Christian Response - 7/14/2009 6:32:50 PM
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tacitus
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The death penalty for apostasy the prevailing thought in many places, but it is not without opposition (those who oppose point out that the penalty of death is not mentioned in any of the 20 times apostasy is mentioned in the Koran.
Of course, it's still a terrible law wherever it is applied.
I tend to see Islam as being at the stage Christianity was 400 years ago, when people were regularly severely punished, and even put to death for apostasy under Christian law of the land. (It was particularly bad in years when Mary and Elizabeth switch England between Catholicism and Protestantism.)
That's not to excuse Islam in anyway, but it's an interesting way to look at some of the parallel between the two religions.
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RE: Muslim Demographics - A Christian Response - 7/15/2009 5:55:11 AM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
As I have said before, I am sure there are many good Muslims.
But a reasonable person might not want to be living in an Islam-dominated country. Once it dominates, or gets close to domination, unpleasant things begin happening. Note, in that link, the beheadings were punishment for leaving Islam. Is it unreasonable to fear a religion which allows the death penalty as punishment for such a "crime"? Islam allows it. Not all Muslim governments follow it, but Islam allows it.
I was just in an Islam-dominated country less than a week ago (98% Islamic to be approximate), yet there is not Islamic rule of law. It is a democratic country. Islamic dominance does not necessitate problems. The problems come when the lawmakers attempt to make a mountain out of a molehill and call for things such as a banning of burqas and such.
Note: I am not advocating the use of burqas. I was using that as an example of France's ignorance and poor judgment with regard to the assimilation of Muslims into their country. I believe that France is operating in a state of fear of Muslims, refusing to allow them to assimilate. I believe Muslims have assimilated rather well in America and those few cases where there have been trouble with Muslims have usually been cases where someone was operating in a state of fear. We should not fear, but ask questions.
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God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: Muslim Demographics - A Christian Response - 7/15/2009 2:14:07 PM
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ourgreatestSource
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quote:
Note: I am not advocating the use of burqas. I was using that as an example of France's ignorance and poor judgment with regard to the assimilation of Muslims into their country. I believe that France is operating in a state of fear of Muslims, refusing to allow them to assimilate. I believe Muslims have assimilated rather well in America and those few cases where there have been trouble with Muslims have usually been cases where someone was operating in a state of fear. We should not fear, but ask questions.
Well, all countries govs can be ignorante and have poor jugdment regarding "X" issue...those affected by it will share their different complaints about different nations.
Comparisions between US ways and French ways assimilating "their" Muslims orthodox ( women wearing burqas communities) is not good comparison, imo, because they have different histories dealings with different nationalities Muslims. France is around as a nation way before US was and was a Colonizer having immigrants that can claim citizenship because their ancestry or because are their ex-colonies status agreements. I would compare French and British ways and their ex-colonies dealings, the relationships with their many immigrants and citizens inside the 2 ex Empires countries. But that is the way I see the situation going on.
US is a very young "Superpower", to some minds it's an Empire also.
Some countries have very independent ex-colonies, others have different outcomes, we are dealing with unique situations although to outsiders "all" may look the same. Ex Colonizers have their own ways, some still protecting (and using ex-colonies).Countries do not go helping others without having at least, a tiny compensation (and profits). Some "exes" try to keep their influences running, because business $$$ advantages, in "x" regions, around the globe. Even when it hurt the local population being helped, what it matters is the interest of the big power country "helping out", some even open doors to "bad leadership" in ex-colonies.Many countries are guilty to behave this way... "good ones", do politics and business the same as the "bad ones", just ask those involved and hurt by it..(please, dont ask the politicians(no no!) but the population. )
France problems and issues is not with Islam, Muslim or burqas alone, but with immigrants, imo. Some countries may use dissatisfaction with "x" as in this case "muslim ways and wear", for their strong nationalism and patriotism (some may carry racism and prejudice also) to be voiced in their strong sentiments, as some/many do not want to lose their identities to lesser cultures and foreigner peoples. You can see around Europe's 1s world old nations, having the same standings regarding their immigrants and what "they doing with our country"., bringing down everything they fought for and love for their nations. Here in the US, you can find the same strong sentiments and some groups are used as "scapegots" also. As much one group assimilate "they" do not look quite right and will remain outsiders, to some or many, nationals.
France is known liberal, some are multicural liberals, others liberal nationalists wanting to remain French. That is very understandable imo, coletive ways and identity going on, very strong to some, that can sound racist and xenophobic to others, still I can see why people get upset by "new people" different them us" sentiments. Burqa represents a retrocess, orthodox religious wear in society that are very progressive, liberal, where religious expression is "to keep private", and laws are made already to keep sure they do. Gov come up with bans.
It is very difficult to really walk in others shoes, really, when we have no attachments of mind and heart for a nation and its peoples groups dynamics. We can try to understand all parts, but we all have our own national, cultural, academic, preferences and positions of choice etc, many perspectives going on, to influence us, even when we are "good" Christian nations/individuals, we do miss the mark big time, regarding other cultures, peoples groups, etc
Anybody, any label, can mess up big time "others", even "democracies"; as the liberals or conservatives; as the Christians, Muslims, Jews, etcs Demographics are manipulated big time by all parts of interest in the matter...I do stick with the Bible acessment of reality as time comes and goes, nothing new under sun and the door and way remais the same: very narrow., not much traveled or traffic going on, not fancy highway, the Lord tries a lot our patience by we having to wait for things, dealing with different unpleasant people way longer than we wish to..process takes ages..."Lord have mercy, please move faster, I might have to help You with my case, rush help..!"..that was my prayer many times. 
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"Whoever has no rule over his own spirit Is like a city broken down, without walls." Prov. 25:28
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RE: Muslim Demographics - A Christian Response - 7/15/2009 7:47:07 PM
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jemaevan
Posts: 3
Joined: 4/10/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tacitus
The death penalty for apostasy the prevailing thought in many places, but it is not without opposition (those who oppose point out that the penalty of death is not mentioned in any of the 20 times apostasy is mentioned in the Koran.
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The Koran isn't the only source for Islamic (Sharia) Law. Sharia law is based on the Koran and the Sunnah (Hadith) and they are also a quide for every day life. The Hadith's are the sayings and deeds of Mohammad.
(Hadith) Bukhari 84:64
"During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, where-ever you find them, kill them, for who-ever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection."
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RE: Muslim Demographics - A Christian Response - 7/30/2009 9:23:37 AM
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TheosCentric
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Newsweek has thrown their hat into the fray:
Dispelling the Myth of Eurabia
To listen to Europe's far right, it would be easy to conclude that the continent is poised for another round of bitter conflict with a centuries-old adversary. "The first Islamic invasion of Europe was stopped at [the battle of] Poitiers in 732. The second was halted at the gates of Vienna in 1683. Now we have to stop the current stealth invasion," argues Geert Wilders, the leader of the Dutch Party for Freedom, which claims that Islamic doctrine encourages terrorism.
It's rabble-rousing stuff. But underlying Wilders's polemic is an argument shared by many more mainstream right-leaning thinkers on both sides of the Atlantic. Europe, its will sapped by secularism and anything-goes tolerance, has allowed decades of mass immigration without serious challenge. Too feeble to defend their own values, governments have been ready to appease Muslim opinion and must expect the worst. The argument has been gaining ground for some time—fed by alarmist and highly speculative projections from writers like the Canadian Mark Steyn, author of the bestselling America Alone—that immigration and high birthrates could mean that Muslims will make up 40 percent of Europe's population by 2025. Similar and very public warnings have come from American diplomat Timothy Savage, who claimed that forecasts of a Muslim majority in Western Europe by midcentury "may not be far off the mark" if present trends continue, which would heighten the risk of conflict. The British historian Niall Ferguson has written that "a youthful Muslim society to the south and east of the Mediterranean is poised to colonize—the term is not too strong—a sene-scent Europe." And the American journalist Christopher Caldwell forecasts that an "anchored" and "confident" Islam looks likely to impose its will on an "insecure" and "relativistic" European culture. The gloomiest commentators, including Steyn and the conservative Ameri-can writer Tony Blankley, talk of an emerging "Eurabia" hostile to American interests and in thrall to Islam.
These warnings chime with public fears that Europe has already become an incubator for worldwide terrorism. After all, the September 11 hijackers plotted in Germany, and homegrown terrorists were involved in the Madrid and London attacks. Concern is growing that a swelling immigrant population resistant to assimilation or integration will steal jobs and strain public services. Last year a Pew poll found that about half of respondents in Spain and Germany held negative views of Muslims. In Spain the figure had climbed 15 points, to 52 percent, since 2004. In the June elections to the European Parliament, Wilders's party won 17 percent of the national vote in the Netherlands. The anti-immigrant British National Party, which warned of the "creeping Islamification" of British society, won its first two seats. In Austria the right-wing Freedom Party almost doubled its share of the vote, at 13 percent.
_____________________________
God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: Muslim Demographics - A Christian Response - 8/12/2009 1:32:21 PM
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TheosCentric
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Here's the BBC's take on the same video: Debunking a YouTube hit
This seven-and-a-half minute video "Muslim Demographics" uses slick graphics, punctuated with dramatic music, to make some surprising claims, asserting that much of Europe will be majority Muslim in just a few decades. It says that in the past two decades, 90% of all population growth in Europe has been Muslim immigration.
In France, it says 30% of those aged 20 and younger are Muslim, with the birth rate for Muslim families massively exceeding that across all families. It says France will be an Islamic Republic within 39 years.
In the UK it says the Muslim population has risen 30-fold since the beginning of the 1980s.
But are any of the video's statistics true?
_____________________________
God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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