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RE: Honduras - 6/30/2009 12:46:50 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
I'm not sure if confidence is the chief factor here. Rather, we simply can't stay in Iraq forever.
Sooner or later, we have to go (the Iraqis themselves are celebrating our departure) and then whatever happens after will be the acid test. I truly hope that Iraq can keep itself together, but am not betting on anything.
I am willing to bet; if Iraq falls apart within a year after forces pull out, I will gladly apologize to the left and acknowledge their wisdom on the matter; if it doesn't I think those here who have condmened Bush for his actions should apologize for doing so.
quote:
And what if Iraq falls into a mullah-led nation a la Iran in 1979? I hope it doesn't happen, but you're acting as if the future of Iraq is clear as day, when it is in fact clear as mud.
I am confident of what happened there because I pay attention to the day to day progess; but this has nothing to do with Obama's contradictory response to events in Honduras.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Honduras - 6/30/2009 2:24:47 PM
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ourgreatestSource
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Hopefuly there will be no USA or any other country (Venezuela) interference in Honduras situation. Even the ex-president own party was not agreeing with him lately, etc. yeh, the man was democraticaly voted in 2006 but by 2009 he became persona non grata, had to leave country in his pyjamas because was trying to mess up with Constitution. Why someone would try a referendum, to something not allowed by law, as a 2nd term to be a president..and months before the election to a new president?
No one has the right to mess up with Constitution! Congress and Military in Honduras case were very fast, indeed. Great!
The pendulum may naturaly goes extreme right and then extreme left, both cases can be very authoritative, populist ways, a la Latin America style..  ..I am laughing to not cry...for the LA Peoples, as other world populations, in general.  ..lets not forget Zimbabwe people struggles, the way their politicians and those in power are heavily into long time corruption, heartless. Hopefuly the "democratic world" take sides not with ex-presidents but with Peoples causes and justice.
Best wishes, praying for Honduras.
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"Whoever has no rule over his own spirit Is like a city broken down, without walls." Prov. 25:28
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RE: Honduras - 6/30/2009 3:21:07 PM
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todd_t
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From: The North Woods
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quote:
I am willing to bet; if Iraq falls apart within a year after forces pull out, I will gladly apologize to the left and acknowledge their wisdom on the matter; if it doesn't I think those here who have condmened Bush for his actions should apologize for doing so.
If Iraq holds together over the long-term, I'll be glad for the Iraqi people.
However, as far as Bush goes, I'm convinced more than ever that he was determined (and encouraged by his neo-con cabal) to invade Iraq before 9-11 even happened, and that it had nothing to do with US security. Thus, I will never apologize for criticizing his decision to invade as (IMO) it was under false pretenses.
But that's another argument entirely.
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RE: Honduras - 6/30/2009 3:25:12 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
But that's another argument entirely.
Actually that is another maniacal conspiracy theory entirely.
Thanks
RC
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Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Honduras - 6/30/2009 3:27:14 PM
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rcjames
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It is really disconserting to have our President lined up with the other communist dictators (Chavez and Castro) on the Honduranian situation.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Honduras - 6/30/2009 4:44:46 PM
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todd_t
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From: The North Woods
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quote:
Actually that is another maniacal conspiracy theory entirely.
Some people think Watergate was a conspiracy theory too.
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RE: Honduras - 6/30/2009 4:56:12 PM
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Jhud
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Some people think Watergate was a conspiracy theory too.
Well yes, because it was; and demonstrates how hard it is to keep the littlest actions secret much less a government wide 'cabal'.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Honduras - 6/30/2009 5:23:09 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Honduras isn't run by a delusional thug with nuclear technology, mullah puppet-masters, and a grudge against Israel.
The two situations could not be more unalike.
So we can push countries around if we are stronger than they are, but not if it's actually a risk to us?
You get an "A" in American Foreign Policy, Regime Change and National Defense Strategies in the Twenty-first Century
_____________________________
"They're our next door neighbors and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska." --Sarah Palin.
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RE: Honduras - 6/30/2009 5:28:32 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
I'm trying to decide why I should care. (For real.) Can someone explain?
Do you eat bananas; Honduras is our no.1 importer of bananas.
Thanks
RC
I really like those little cars. My daughter has a Honduras Accord and loves it.
_____________________________
"They're our next door neighbors and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska." --Sarah Palin.
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RE: Honduras - 6/30/2009 5:30:33 PM
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todd_t
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quote:
Well yes, because it was
Well, you certainly got me there. My bad. If Watergate wasn't a conspiracy, then nothing is.
quote:
and demonstrates how hard it is to keep the littlest actions secret much less a government wide 'cabal'.
I don't think Bush's plans to invade Iraq from the get-go were a secret at all. He made his feelings pretty obvious to Tony Blair that he wanted to go in, and was constantly looking for excuses to do so....
Without much elaboration, the (British government) memo also says the president raised three possible ways of provoking a confrontation. Since they were first reported last month, neither the White House nor the British government has discussed them.
"The U.S. was thinking of flying U2 reconnaissance aircraft with fighter cover over Iraq, painted in U.N. colours," the memo says, attributing the idea to Mr. Bush. "If Saddam fired on them, he would be in breach."
It also described the president as saying, "The U.S. might be able to bring out a defector who could give a public presentation about Saddam's W.M.D," referring to weapons of mass destruction.
A brief clause in the memo refers to a third possibility, mentioned by Mr. Bush, a proposal to assassinate Saddam Hussein. The memo does not indicate how Mr. Blair responded to the idea.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/27/international/europe/27memo.html
In short, Napoleon wanted his war and he got it.
< Message edited by todd_t -- 6/30/2009 5:37:48 PM >
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RE: Honduras - 6/30/2009 5:33:11 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 4661
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
You get an "A" in American Foreign Policy, Regime Change and National Defense Strategies in the Twenty-first Century
Thank heavens it hasn't always been this way; we would still be a colony, with slaves - that speaks German or Russian.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Honduras - 6/30/2009 5:50:14 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2971
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From: NYC by way of Chicago
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
Actually that is another maniacal conspiracy theory entirely.
Some people think Watergate was a conspiracy theory too.
Or Valerie Plame- or the notion that Iraq didn't have WMDs and the White House influenced the intelligence process.
Most graduates of elite northeastern liberal arts schools aren't arrogant or cynical about the intellect of others, but you do tend to run into people in this mold more often out of certain schools than out of your typical state schools or community colleges. I've met several of these people, and I believe that if Bush is like them, it would have been perfectly in character for him to be cynical about the intelligence of voters and try to adjust the intelligence on Iraq as well as take down Valerie Plame. The chicanery around Medicare Part D may also indicate a certain outlook on the world.
Naturally, Obama isn't exempt, either, but he's taken a very conservative and hands-off approach so far. That said, we have 3.5 or 7.5 years to go to see if we can get any more insight on his true colors.
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RE: Honduras - 6/30/2009 5:53:19 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2971
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Some people think Watergate was a conspiracy theory too.
Well yes, because it was; and demonstrates how hard it is to keep the littlest actions secret much less a government wide 'cabal'.
I would also note that under Nixon, Democrats controlled both houses of congress and conservative Republicans didn't support his liberal policies. If half of congress had been Nixon supporters, he would have never had to resign.
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RE: Honduras - 6/30/2009 6:17:49 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 4661
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
I would also note that under Nixon, Democrats controlled both houses of congress and conservative Republicans didn't support his liberal policies. If half of congress had been Nixon supporters, he would have never had to resign.
So?
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Honduras - 6/30/2009 6:24:32 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2971
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
So?
You don't remember how conservatives used their bully pulpits to charge that Democrats who had questions about Valerie Plame were conspiracy theorists or were anti-Americans who hated the president?
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RE: Honduras - 6/30/2009 6:24:55 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 4661
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Or Valerie Plame- or the notion that Iraq didn't have WMDs and the White House influenced the intelligence process.
Most graduates of elite northeastern liberal arts schools aren't arrogant or cynical about the intellect of others, but you do tend to run into people in this mold more often out of certain schools than out of your typical state schools or community colleges. I've met several of these people, and I believe that if Bush is like them, it would have been perfectly in character for him to be cynical about the intelligence of voters and try to adjust the intelligence on Iraq as well as take down Valerie Plame. The chicanery around Medicare Part D may also indicate a certain outlook on the world.
Naturally, Obama isn't exempt, either, but he's taken a very conservative and hands-off approach so far. That said, we have 3.5 or 7.5 years to go to see if we can get any more insight on his true colors.
I a cynical of the intelligence of people who buy hog-swallop conspiracy theories to justify heir political beliefs; we know Valerie Plame wasn't outed by Bush, it's a matter of public record. Any contention to the contrary is full blown, grassy-knoll-commies-floridating-the-water nonsense
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Honduras - 6/30/2009 6:25:59 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 4661
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
You don't remember how conservatives used their bully pulpits to charge that Democrats who had questions about Valerie Plame were conspiracy theorists or were anti-Americans who hated the president?
What does that have to do with Nixon?
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Honduras - 6/30/2009 6:29:03 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2971
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
You don't remember how conservatives used their bully pulpits to charge that Democrats who had questions about Valerie Plame were conspiracy theorists or were anti-Americans who hated the president?
What does that have to do with Nixon?
Nixon has everything to do with the fact that Democrats controlled a house of Congress during Watergate.
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RE: Honduras - 6/30/2009 6:30:33 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 4661
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quote:
Nixon has everything to do with the fact that Democrats controlled a house of Congress during Watergate.
Perhaps, but nothing to do with Valerie Plame...
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Honduras - 6/30/2009 7:28:24 PM
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blessedinnyc
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quote:
I a cynical of the intelligence of people who buy hog-swallop conspiracy theories to justify heir political beliefs; we know Valerie Plame wasn't outed by Bush, it's a matter of public record. Any contention to the contrary is full blown, grassy-knoll-commies-floridating-the-water nonsense
While true, Bush gave the authorization to declassify her status and Scooter Libby engaged in some sort of cover-up that Republican special investigator Peter Fitzgerald ultimately charged him with and a jury found him guilty of. To suggest that the Bush administration never engaged in political chicanery is at least a little forgetful of certain felony convictions and grand jury investigations.
And then there is Iraq. Whether or not Bush actually thought about a second Iraq invasion, there is little dispute over whether some of his closest foreign policy advisors- Condoleeza Rice, Donald Rumsfeld, and Paul Wolfowitz, for example, had already done some lobbying for it and also had done some planning in the hypothetical that Iraq was actually invaded.
If Bush's advisors admit that they planned for a war in Iraq before he even entered office, it is not really that unreasonable to speculate as to whether Bush thought about it at some point before 9/11.
Something tells me that this is one of those conspiracy theories that may be as credible as Al Gore's conspiracy theory about global warming.
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 6/30/2009 7:35:53 PM >
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RE: Honduras - 6/30/2009 9:43:13 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 4661
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
While true, Bush gave the authorization to declassify her status and Scooter Libby engaged in some sort of cover-up that Republican special investigator Peter Fitzgerald ultimately charged him with and a jury found him guilty of. To suggest that the Bush administration never engaged in political chicanery is at least a little forgetful of certain felony convictions and grand jury investigations.
It's also forgetful of what Libby was convicted of - and it wasn't exposing classified information. But facts are annoying, aren't they?
quote:
And then there is Iraq. Whether or not Bush actually thought about a second Iraq invasion, there is little dispute over whether some of his closest foreign policy advisors- Condoleeza Rice, Donald Rumsfeld, and Paul Wolfowitz, for example, had already done some lobbying for it and also had done some planning in the hypothetical that Iraq was actually invaded.
If Bush's advisors admit that they planned for a war in Iraq before he even entered office, it is not really that unreasonable to speculate as to whether Bush thought about it at some point before 9/11.
Something tells me that this is one of those conspiracy theories that may be as credible as Al Gore's conspiracy theory about global warming.
You are so off track it's not even funny; the whole event was a ruse to cover up for the Bush family's involvement in the Kennedy assasinations. There, now you know - I am sure you supsected all along anyway.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Honduras - 6/30/2009 9:52:46 PM
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StephK
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What does Bush, Libby, Nixon, Valerie Plame et al have to do with the fact that Honduras' other branches of government upheld their constitution in stopping a Hugo Chavez wannabe dictator from setting things up so that he could be "president for life" and that our current TOTUS once again is on the wrong side of the issue?
Charles Krauthammer on Honduras: Obama is Wrong
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Envy is always referred to by its political alias, "social justice."
~ Thomas Sowell
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RE: Honduras - 6/30/2009 10:00:59 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2971
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
It's also forgetful of what Libby was convicted of - and it wasn't exposing classified information. But facts are annoying, aren't they?
Nixon also ultimately got in trouble for the coverup. CC: Rose Mary Woods.
quote:
You are so off track it's not even funny; the whole event was a ruse to cover up for the Bush family's involvement in the Kennedy assasinations. There, now you know - I am sure you supsected all along anyway.
And let me guess- Billy Kristol claims Al Gore came up with this at the same time he came up with his conspiracy theory about cigarettes being addictive?
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RE: Honduras - 6/30/2009 10:04:00 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2971
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From: NYC by way of Chicago
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
What does Bush, Libby, Nixon, Valerie Plame et al have to do with the fact that Honduras' other branches of government upheld their constitution in stopping a Hugo Chavez wannabe dictator from setting things up so that he could be "president for life" and that our current TOTUS once again is on the wrong side of the issue?
Charles Krauthammer on Honduras: Obama is Wrong
I'm not sure I totally agree with Obama on this one.
We ultimately need to sit down the ousted President, get him to swear on his grandmother's cookies that he will step down on January 27th, and get him to serve out his term.
Obviously, his attempt at a democratic coup in defiance of the constitution and supreme court crossed the line. I am disappointed that the arrest was carried out by the military instead of following a more legal route, but it would be unacceptable to put him back in power without ensuring that he steps down in January.
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