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RE: Honduras - 7/1/2009 10:45:37 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
Nixon also ultimately got in trouble for the coverup. CC: Rose Mary Woods.
I am starting to think we are dealing with an extreme case of ADD here.
quote:
And let me guess- Billy Kristol claims Al Gore came up with this at the same time he came up with his conspiracy theory about cigarettes being addictive?
That makes about as much sense as anything else you have offerred so far in this thread.
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Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Honduras - 7/1/2009 1:49:57 PM
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ourgreatestSource
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Deadline for Honduras over "leader"
What a hypocrisy.."international condenation of the coup"...disgusting the double standards some have about democracy, at least from Brasilian Pres. Lula, who is in his way to Brasil after visiting Khadafi in Lybia...yeh right. 
"The president's expulsion has been widely condemned by leaders ranging from US President Barack Obama to Mr Zelaya's regional allies, including Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.
But thousands of people demonstrated in the capital, Tegucigalpa, against the return of the ousted leader, whose popularity has slumped in opinion polls to around 30% in recent months.
The BBC's Stephen Gibbs in Tegucigalpa says they seemed very determined to prevent him being reinstated and appear to outnumber his supporters, at least in the capital. "
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"Whoever has no rule over his own spirit Is like a city broken down, without walls." Prov. 25:28
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RE: Honduras - 7/1/2009 2:02:43 PM
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rcjames
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Well if they would have had an old timey (Real) "Coup" and killed the guy at his desk and drug him through the streets behind a WW!! jeep, instead of being 'Civil" and escourting him out of the country; this this discussion would be mute.
I would imagine that next time those felling a 'Coup" is necessary will revert back to the old tried and proven way.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
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RE: Honduras - 7/1/2009 2:09:56 PM
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blessedinnyc
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Well if they would have had an old timey (Real) "Coup" and killed the guy at his desk and drug him through the streets behind a WW!! jeep, instead of being 'Civil" and escourting him out of the country; this this discussion would be mute.
I would imagine that next time those felling a 'Coup" is necessary will revert back to the old tried and proven way.
Thanks
RC
I take it you are a member of the 0.5% of the US population that actually believes Pinochet's reign of terror in Chile was a good thing.
Military intervention has never really worked well in Latin America, although many of the times it went badly tended to involve US interventionism to remove constitutionally-elected Western European-style socialists.
The US needs to tread carefully in Honduras- both to keep a would-be dictator out of power and also stopping the Latin nationalists from claiming that the US still support military intervention in Latin American politics.
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RE: Honduras - 7/1/2009 6:20:56 PM
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wing2000
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From: ...the beautiful Sonoran Desert
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quote:
What does Bush, Libby, Nixon, Valerie Plame et al have to do with the fact that Honduras' other branches of government upheld their constitution in stopping a Hugo Chavez wannabe dictator from setting things up so that he could be "president for life" and that our current TOTUS once again is on the wrong side of the issue?
Steph...I partially agree with you except there is one crucial point that no one (world wide media included) has addressed.
What is the mechanism by which Honduras can despose of a President according to it's Constitution?
I'm fairly certain it's not the military breaking into the Presidential residence at 5 AM and carting the ruler off to another country.
Yes, the Congress and Supreme Court did rule against the referendam that Pres. Zelaya planned to carry out on Sunday....but it is not clear the Congress nor Court gave the military the authority to dispose the President (...yes the Military is claiming that after the fact...but this is the Honduran military....)
So on the point, President Obama...and indeed all countries that respect Democracy have no choice but to denounce the manner in which Zelaya was disposed.
As for Zelaya...his days were numbered anyway...he has no support from the majority of the people...nor any of the major institutions (Catholic Church, Military, Congress). While he may have had illusions of making Honduras another Venezuela...it was just that...an illusion.
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RE: Honduras - 7/1/2009 6:56:52 PM
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wing2000
Posts: 1024
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From: ...the beautiful Sonoran Desert
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...commentary on the Honduran Military and it's Consitiution:
quote:
But was the coup "unconstitutional" and "not legal"?
The Honduran military insists it was both constitutional and legal. Here's their argument, in a nutshell:
The detention order, signed June 26 by a Supreme Court judge, ordered the armed forces to detain the president, identified by his full name of José Manuel Zelaya Rosales, at his home in the Tres Caminos area of the capital. It accused him of treason and abuse of authority, among other charges.
"It was a clean operation," Colonel Bayardo said, dismissing Mr. Zelaya’s remarks before the United Nations General Assembly on Tuesday in which he described the arrest as a brutal coup. "It was a fast operation. It was over in minutes, and there were no injuries, no deaths. We said, ‘Sir, we have a judicial order to detain you.’ We did it with respect."
.....
The Honduran Constitution indicates that the armed forces a permanent national institution -- professional, apolitical, obedient, and nondeliberating. The last three characteristics are simply fictitious. The armed forces of Honduras form the principal political force of the country and thus exercise a tutelary role over the other institutions of government. The armed forces constitute a de facto power, not subordinated to civilian political power.
In the first place, the armed forces are charged with fulfilling eminently political functions: maintaining the rule of the Constitution, the principles of free suffrage, and the alternation of the office of the presidency of the republic. In any liberal democracy these are the tasks of the judicial branch. Because of the armed forces' role in judging the conduct of civilian government, Honduran democracy finds itself under the permanent threat of a coup d'etat. The armed forces determine, in fact, whether the civilian government is maintaining the Constitution.
...to say the least, their Constitution is a bit behind the times....
Legal but illegitmate
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RE: Honduras - 7/1/2009 7:35:35 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Military intervention has never really worked well in Latin America, although many of the times it went badly tended to involve US interventionism to remove constitutionally-elected Western European-style socialists.
The US needs to tread carefully in Honduras- both to keep a would-be dictator out of power and also stopping the Latin nationalists from claiming that the US still support military intervention in Latin American politics.
What happened/happening in Houndurls is far from a military takeover, the number two elected official (equal to our V.P.) took over, the elected houses are still running the country; it was just an expedited impeachment.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Honduras - 7/1/2009 9:24:40 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2971
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From: NYC by way of Chicago
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Military intervention has never really worked well in Latin America, although many of the times it went badly tended to involve US interventionism to remove constitutionally-elected Western European-style socialists.
The US needs to tread carefully in Honduras- both to keep a would-be dictator out of power and also stopping the Latin nationalists from claiming that the US still support military intervention in Latin American politics.
What happened/happening in Houndurls is far from a military takeover, the number two elected official (equal to our V.P.) took over, the elected houses are still running the country; it was just an expedited impeachment.
Thanks
RC
I see it that way, too, but we are not thinking strategically. Given our history, the US can't be seen as opposing a democratically elected president's right to remain in office.
We need to figure out a way to get the President back in power and merely ensure that the checks and balances that prevented him from holding a rogue referendum remain in place when he is supposed to exit.
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RE: Honduras - 7/2/2009 9:13:25 AM
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Strider33
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
I'm trying to decide why I should care. (For real.) Can someone explain?
This isn't an easy question to answer. To some extent, you might care more about who gets custody of Michael Jackson's children than you care about the outcome in Honduras.
But the big crises in US international relations tend to start out as small, unimportant disturbances that nobody pays any attention to. Nobody, that is, except for a few experts in the State Department and the Pentagon. Certainly, when the decision was made in 2003 to go in and overthrow the existing government in Iraq, not one American in a hundred had been paying much attention to the situation that had been unfolding for 30 years or so. I include myself among those who weren't paying enough attention. The decision for war was made by a few politicans and experts. Now, after the US has spent four thousand American lives and close to a trillion dollars, the basis for the decision seems questionable at best.
Honduras, by itself, isn't going to cause the kind of upheaval in the US that the Iraq war did. But if all of Latin America slips into either marxist dictatorship on the one hand, or military rule by the very wealthy on the other, it's very possible that the US will find itself unable to defend its borders against refugees. The consequences for you could be either a war whose costs dwarf anything you've experienced, or the disappearance of America as you have known it.
It's generally possible to influence a crisis like the one in Honduras with a small amount of power, skillfully applied. But only if you start early. If you wait until the dictatorship is established, it can take an enormous amount of power to influence future events. The White House, the State Department, and the Pentagon are probably going to determine the US response.
But you and I and the electorate still wield an enormous amount of power in the US. That power is sapped by ignorance and apathy. That's why you should care.
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Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Honduras - 7/2/2009 9:17:33 AM
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wing2000
Posts: 1024
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From: ...the beautiful Sonoran Desert
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Interesting profile of the disposed President
[excerpt]
He grew up in a wealthy landowning family, dropped out of college but went on to witness his nation's grinding poverty firsthand in the aftermath of Hurricane Mitch and then win office by one of the slimmest margins in Honduran history.
By the time of his ouster in his pajamas Sunday, the imposing six-foot, two-inch mustachioed 56-year-old had made a pilgrimage to Havana to pose for a photo with Fidel Castro, sung along while a Mexican band crooned a ballad about drug-trafficking -- and alienated his nation's media, military and supreme court.
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RE: Honduras - 7/2/2009 5:12:36 PM
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sojourner9
Posts: 21
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From: Massachusetts
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The US media is largely ignoring what is happening in Honduras. They have more important things to deal with. After all I think I heard that Michael Jackson might have died this week and some governor had an affair.
What needs to happen to get the US media to pay attention is to have a couple of well known Republicans go down and support the current government in Honduras. Say Trent Lott, Rick Santorum and JC Watts. If they went down and put a finger in th eye of President Obama, the media just might pay attention. They would spin it as the Republicans trying to embarass the President, but maybe people would start to pay attention. I remember when Reagan was President, Democrat Leaders went down to Nicaragua to support the communnist dictator Danny O. It is about time that Republicans showed some leadership.
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If life was fair, we would all go to Hell.
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RE: Honduras - 7/3/2009 11:27:01 AM
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wing2000
Posts: 1024
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Honduran Military lawyer: We broke the law
excerpt:
In an interview with The Miami Herald and El Salvador's elfaro.net, army attorney Col. Herberth Bayardo Inestroza acknowledged that top military brass made the call to forcibly remove Zelaya -- and they circumvented laws when they did it.
It was the first time any participant in Sunday's overthrow admitted committing an offense and the first time a Honduran authority revealed who made the decision that has been denounced worldwide.
''We know there was a crime there,'' said Inestroza, the top legal advisor for the Honduran armed forces. ``In the moment that we took him out of the country, in the way that he was taken out, there is a crime.
http://www.miamiherald.com/1506/story/1125872.html
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RE: Honduras - 7/3/2009 12:17:57 PM
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Strider33
Posts: 335
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Wing2000,
There's a piece in the Washington Post today that backs up the claim that the removal from power was not a classic coup d'etat.
The Supreme Court of Honduras had called for the resignation of Pres. Zelaya and he refused to resign. When the courts can't get their orders followed, that's a constitutional crisis. This is not to justfiy everything that the military did. But it sheds some light on what really went on that Chavez and Ortega and others of that ilk are never going to admit.
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Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Honduras - 7/3/2009 12:28:34 PM
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wing2000
Posts: 1024
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From: ...the beautiful Sonoran Desert
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
Wing2000,
There's a piece in the Washington Post today that backs up the claim that the removal from power was not a classic coup d'etat.
The Supreme Court of Honduras had called for the resignation of Pres. Zelaya and he refused to resign. When the courts can't get their orders followed, that's a constitutional crisis. This is not to justfiy everything that the military did. But it sheds some light on what really went on that Chavez and Ortega and others of that ilk are never going to admit.
Yes, I think we're on the same page...if it were a classic coup d'etat, the military would still be in power. In the Miami Herald article, the military attorney indicated they wisked him out of the country in order to prevent street violence....and I can understand that perspective even if the action itself wasn't entirely legal.
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RE: Honduras - 7/3/2009 1:14:12 PM
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ourgreatestSource
Posts: 734
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"Continuismo – the tendency of heads of state to extend their rule indefinitely – has been the lifeblood of Latin America's authoritarian tradition. The Constitution's provision of instant sanction might sound draconian, but every Latin American democrat knows how much of a threat to our fragile democracies continuismo presents. In Latin America, chiefs of state have often been above the law. The instant sanction of the supreme law has successfully prevented the possibility of a new Honduran continuismo. "
Yep, "continuismo" is a nasty vampire, in Brasil for exemple the whole 3 powers corruption system are above the law. LA countries are all different, some are more historic reactive, revolucionary more bloody and others prefer to be seen as pacifist, friendly, slow and lethargic to react as their politicians practices goes on,as "nothing" seems to brake the machine power that legalize criminal and imoral actions, by those elected by the people. There are a democratic corruption cake alliance, shared by all parties running as usual.
Regular people in other LA countries, who might envy Honduras situation is not because they want military dictatorship back , but military will act like the police to get rid of criminals. Lets not forget that in some places police force is not strong or effective and is corrupt and criminal bought by narcotrafic or other groups. Criminals have btter weapons than police.
The only way to start anew is to take "everybody" out, clean up and than vote "new". There is not political ideologies anymore but plain taking all public money "they" can. Like any other criminals, the politician ones, may come up with scare tactics about military actions because they want to keep sucking blood freely and democraticaly.
Dear Honduras: stand your grounds!!! 
_____________________________
"Whoever has no rule over his own spirit Is like a city broken down, without walls." Prov. 25:28
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RE: Honduras - 7/4/2009 12:54:18 AM
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yankeedoodled
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Obama has made plenty of friendly overtures to Communist and Muslims and showed blatant contempt for Western Democracies, even the nation he is President of. Therefore his hostility towards democracy and law in Honduras and favoring an attempted dictator is quite in keeping with his politics.
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RE: Honduras - 7/4/2009 9:49:20 AM
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rlj
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You're probably referring to his close friendship with Musharreff?
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RE: Honduras - 7/4/2009 10:31:08 AM
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wing2000
Posts: 1024
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From: ...the beautiful Sonoran Desert
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yankeedoodled
Obama has made plenty of friendly overtures to Communist and Muslims and showed blatant contempt for Western Democracies, even the nation he is President of. Therefore his hostility towards democracy and law in Honduras and favoring an attempted dictator is quite in keeping with his politics.
....perhaps you should read the entire thread before assuming Obama's (...and all the Western Deomcracies) actions are motivated by "hostility towards democracy."
Whether we like it or not, Zeleya was elected by the people of Honduras. The issue here is not the disposed leader...rather, a lawful transfer of power...which lies at the very heart of a democracy.
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RE: Honduras - 7/4/2009 10:52:57 AM
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rlj
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quote:
which lies at the very heart of a democracy.
Democracy only matters when it is expedient to us for it to exist. We had no problem removing the democratically elected government of Iran and installing the Shah. We had no qualms about refusing Vietnam the right to democratically re-unite in the 50s after they threw out the French. Same thing with Daniel Ortega we refused to recognize him being made the democratically elected ruler in the mid 80s.
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RE: Honduras - 7/4/2009 2:18:56 PM
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yankeedoodled
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Jimmy Carter, a democrat, allowed the Shah of Iran to be overthrow, but note he also is an unabashed friend of Communists of the world and speaks how abrasively against his own country not unlike Obama.
Birds of a feather flock together. They support those that are our enemies, TYRANTS, OFTEN against us, AMERICA.
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RE: Honduras - 7/4/2009 2:53:16 PM
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ourgreatestSource
Posts: 734
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: tinydancer2
Dear Honduras: stand your grounds!!!
Good word, Hounduras do not give in to Castro, Chavez, Obama, and other communist and socialist trying to destroy your democracy.
I lived in Hondural for 3 years as a Missionary back in the day during the Military dictatorship before freedom rang in that beautiful country. And I, for one, believe in what they are doing, and that it was legal under their laws on how to deal with a rogue leader.
Thanks
RC
Honduran court defiant on Zelaya
Wow that is great RC, you may have lots of testimonies to share about that time, hum?
I too believe in what they are doing and about majority of Hondurean people do agree, also the clero RC, as the Cortes, Congress (Mr. Zelayas own party, interim Pres is from his party also). I saw picture of people on the street anti-Zelaya carrying sign something like that: "Hugo Chaves take him, enjoy!"...lol..the people's voice!.. 
Now..hopefuly US will be very wise in its position and organizations do not one take from Hondurean people help they need because they are a poor country but very noble and courageous than others around. But if world community decide come up with sanctions and cut help from Hondureans I'm sure the Lord will provide for them, one or another.
Now meanwhile hipocrisy grows among the ones who plays "democracy" (at their own personal style card):
Caracas mayor on hungry strike
"Antonio Ledezma, the mayor of the Caracas Metropolitan Area, has gone on hunger strike inside the Embassy of the Organization of American States (OAS) to air to the world "the ongoing serious situation of democratic instability in the country.
1. Immediate provision of funds to pay the wages of the mayoralty workers.
2. Cessation of the arbitrary dismantling of the mayoralty by the central government.
3. Appointment by the OAS of a high-level delegation to visit Venezuela and monitor the serious situation of democracy; violation of the Constitution, and, particularly, what is happening to the Caracas Metropolitan Mayoralty and the state governments of Táchira, Zulia, Miranda, Carabobo and Nueva Esparta.
4. Learning about how government authorities disregard the national sovereignty."
It seems Mr. Hugo Chaves is violating Venezuela's Constitution. Mr Chaves does not allow opposition in his country, it seems also.
Praying for LA Peoples and countries. 
_____________________________
"Whoever has no rule over his own spirit Is like a city broken down, without walls." Prov. 25:28
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RE: Honduras - 7/4/2009 3:19:29 PM
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wing2000
Posts: 1024
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From: ...the beautiful Sonoran Desert
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
which lies at the very heart of a democracy.
Democracy only matters when it is expedient to us for it to exist. We had no problem removing the democratically elected government of Iran and installing the Shah. We had no qualms about refusing Vietnam the right to democratically re-unite in the 50s after they threw out the French. Same thing with Daniel Ortega we refused to recognize him being made the democratically elected ruler in the mid 80s.
....sadly, that has been very true...especially in Latin America. But perhaps this time the US will hold to it's democratic values and demand a lawful handling of the exiled President.
As a young (naive) soldier stationed in Honduras, I recall an 1987 incident wherein the U.S. Embassy ignored the Honduran Constitution and ordered the Honduran military to extradite a Honduran drug king pin (Juan Ramon Mata Ballesteros). The Honduran constitution specifically stated that Honduran citizens can not be extradited...for days afterwards, outraged Hondurans protested in front of the US Embassy and ultimately set the US Consulate on fire. It was a pivotal moment in my political outlook...
It's rather ironic that twenty plus years later, the military is again whisking a Honduran citizen out of the country in the wee hours of the morning...only this time it was the President.
While I understand the military's reasons....in the end, it was an illegal act. IMO, Honduras should reset the clock on this process....re-instate the President...and then formally put him on trial for his alleged crimes against the state...
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RE: Honduras - 7/4/2009 3:49:19 PM
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wing2000
Posts: 1024
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From: ...the beautiful Sonoran Desert
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Archbishop asks Honduras ousted president to give up...
Archbishop Oscar Andrés Rodríguez Saturday morning, who addressed viewers in front of a Honduran flag and a painting of Jesus Christ.
''On the day of your inauguration you cited three commandments of the rules of God -- not to lie, not to steal, not to kill,'' Rodríguez said. ``If you respect life, if you love life. . .please meditate because if not it could be too late.''
Link
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