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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/5/2009 3:18:08 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
They are not asking for 3 dollars, but $15,000 and it's from the pulpit which means undo influence comes into play, in that some folks because of how it was done will feel pressured to give... Isn't serving the Lord "bonus" enough?
Three dollars a service is exactly what they are asking, just asking it in retrospect and not by the service. I am not saying it is the right thing to do, only putting out there that 30 years of service might merit more than a timex watch, or a covered dish supper.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/5/2009 6:36:51 PM
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sharonjef2007
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quote:
They are not asking for 3 dollars, but $15,000 and it's from the pulpit which means undo influence comes into play, in that some folks because of how it was done will feel pressured to give... Isn't serving the Lord "bonus" enough?
Yup....especially since this is not a volunteer, but a paid staff member. People don't go into full time ministry for the money or the perks! They do it because it is what God leads them to do. The payment will be in heaven, not on earth.
I'm not saying that the church should not do something nice for the 30 year anniversary. But a $15,000 boat? What is that saying to the people looking from the outside in? What kind of witness is that giving?
_____________________________
my blog......Picture This.......
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/5/2009 6:45:40 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3045
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By itself, I don't think a $15K bonus after 30 years is terribly unreasonable. My wife's profit-sharing bonus is 30%-50% of that every year and she's only been in the industry about 8 years and with her current employer less than 3.
If your church really is so poor that it can't afford to pay the pastor enough to replace his aging suits, then maybe it is out of line. Though if that's truly the case about the pastor's salary, I have to wonder how they can afford to hire a music minister in the first place, rather than just using a volunteer. OTOH, maybe your pastor chooses to spend his money on other things. Although, maybe your pastor is only slightly underpaid while the music minister is grossly underpaid and their respective bonuses reflect the disparities.
Also, you also never said how large your church is. It's a lot easier for 2000 people to come up with $15K than it is for 50 people.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sharonjef2007
quote:
They are not asking for 3 dollars, but $15,000 and it's from the pulpit which means undo influence comes into play, in that some folks because of how it was done will feel pressured to give... Isn't serving the Lord "bonus" enough?
Yup....especially since this is not a volunteer, but a paid staff member. People don't go into full time ministry for the money or the perks! They do it because it is what God leads them to do. The payment will be in heaven, not on earth.
I'm not saying that the church should not do something nice for the 30 year anniversary. But a $15,000 boat? What is that saying to the people looking from the outside in? What kind of witness is that giving?
What does it say to the outside world when we expect people to work for free and resent the idea of giving them a gift of appreciation? I wish more Christians had the responsibility of hiring and paying people, then maybe they'd begin to appreciate what time is actually worth. Honestly, I'd rather be known as a Christian who respects and rewards time, effort, commitment, and skill rather than a Christian who takes all of those for granted and expects something for nothing.
-Dan.
< Message edited by iluvatar -- 7/5/2009 6:56:44 PM >
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/5/2009 6:47:05 PM
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heavenwardalways
Posts: 16
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
I received a letter from my pastor stating that for our music ministers 30th anniversary of service, requesting an offering to pay for a boat the church wants to give him. This boat costs $15,000! I'm having a hard time reconciling that in my mind. Please tell me your thoughts on this and how it would make you feel. if you received the same letter.
This bother's me. As having a boat would be nice; how does that edify the church? It sounds like the pastor wants to give him a personal gift and has very little to do with the whole church. It lacks professional taste that this was done in a letter. There are probably other people that feel the same way that you do in your church, seek them out and pray. Bottom line, if you are having a hard time with this, first pray. God will always give you peace about something He wishes you to participate in.
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/5/2009 7:16:26 PM
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sharonjef2007
Posts: 2302
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quote:
What does it say to the outside world when we expect people to work for free and resent the idea of giving them a gift of appreciation? I wish more Christians had the responsibility of hiring and paying people, then maybe they'd begin to appreciate what time is actually worth. Honestly, I'd rather be known as a Christian who respects and rewards time, effort, commitment, and skill rather than a Christian who takes all of those for granted and expects something for nothing.
If you go back and read what I actually wrote, you will see that I'm NOT against doing something for the MM. 30 years is a long time to be in ministry at one church and it deserves recognition. I just think there are many more practical things you can do for a minister of the church then buy a $15,000 boat. Boats are EXPENSIVE to upkeep. Is that an expense the MM can afford? And, he is a PAID employee of the church already! He is not a volunteer.....
Buy the guy a vacation with his family. Have a celebration. Give him a nice cash bonus or something. But, churches are not for profit organizations. You are not going to find the perks at a non profit that you are going to get at a for profit company. To me, $15,000 is excessive, even if your church has 15,000 members.
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/5/2009 8:06:44 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1781
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
OTOH, maybe your pastor chooses to spend his money on other things.
That's the thing. The church isn't poor, not don't get me wrong, we are by no means a mega church. But it does seem to me, this gift is in line with what a mega church might do.....
Edited to add:
quote:
Also, you also never said how large your church is. It's a lot easier for 2000 people to come up with $15K than it is for 50 people.
I think two thousand is high. Maybe on the rolls that many... however, regular attendees, it's about 600-700.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/5/2009 8:23:50 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6366
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
They are not asking for 3 dollars, but $15,000 and it's from the pulpit which means undo influence comes into play, in that some folks because of how it was done will feel pressured to give... Isn't serving the Lord "bonus" enough?
Three dollars a service is exactly what they are asking, just asking it in retrospect and not by the service. I am not saying it is the right thing to do, only putting out there that 30 years of service might merit more than a timex watch, or a covered dish supper.
Thanks
RC
What it might merit isn't really the issue, but how it is done...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/5/2009 9:21:17 PM
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zoebob
Posts: 7961
Joined: 4/13/2005
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We are talking about a bonus not a salary. If you are working for hopes of a bonus somewhere down the line that's not a servant's heart
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L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/5/2009 9:55:35 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3045
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sharonjef2007
quote:
What does it say to the outside world when we expect people to work for free and resent the idea of giving them a gift of appreciation? I wish more Christians had the responsibility of hiring and paying people, then maybe they'd begin to appreciate what time is actually worth. Honestly, I'd rather be known as a Christian who respects and rewards time, effort, commitment, and skill rather than a Christian who takes all of those for granted and expects something for nothing.
If you go back and read what I actually wrote, you will see that I'm NOT against doing something for the MM. 30 years is a long time to be in ministry at one church and it deserves recognition. I just think there are many more practical things you can do for a minister of the church then buy a $15,000 boat. Boats are EXPENSIVE to upkeep. Is that an expense the MM can afford?
I have no way of knowing that. They're expensive, but they're not terribly expensive. Assuming that we're talking about buying new rather than used, $15K doesn't actually get you that much boat. A 15'-17' boat would probably live on a trailer instead of a marina and wouldn't cost much more to operate and maintain than than a motorcycle or a snowmobile.
quote:
And, he is a PAID employee of the church already! He is not a volunteer.....
Sure, but he's also been there for 30 years. As was pointed out earlier, that comes out to about $3/service.
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
OTOH, maybe your pastor chooses to spend his money on other things.
That's the thing. The church isn't poor, not don't get me wrong, we are by no means a mega church. But it does seem to me, this gift is in line with what a mega church might do.....
Edited to add:
quote:
Also, you also never said how large your church is. It's a lot easier for 2000 people to come up with $15K than it is for 50 people.
I think two thousand is high. Maybe on the rolls that many... however, regular attendees, it's about 600-700.
Something strikes me as very odd and potentially wrong about either your church's compensation plan or your pastor's priorities. If you've got 600-2000 people, why can the pastor not afford to replace his worn out clothes? If he can afford it, why does he choose not to? In a church that size, a $15K gift sounds rather large, but not necessarily extraordinarily extravagant. In total, that's less than $25/person.
Are you willing/able to say how much your pastor & music minister earn each year?
quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
We are talking about a bonus not a salary. If you are working for hopes of a bonus somewhere down the line that's not a servant's heart
Nobody said that the music minister had any hopes of getting a bonus. Just because he doesn't expect one doesn't mean that he doesn't deserve one, that he hasn't earned one, or that it wouldn't be nice to give him one.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/6/2009 4:33:57 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6366
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
I have no way of knowing that. They're expensive, but they're not terribly expensive. Assuming that we're talking about buying new rather than used, $15K doesn't actually get you that much boat. A 15'-17' boat would probably live on a trailer instead of a marina and wouldn't cost much more to operate and maintain than than a motorcycle or a snowmobile.
Having owned a couple I can say that boats require a lot of maintenance... Lucky for me it's what I do for a living....
quote:
And, he is a PAID employee of the church already! He is not a volunteer.....
Sure, but he's also been there for 30 years. As was pointed out earlier, that comes out to about $3/service.
quote:
Something strikes me as very odd and potentially wrong about either your church's compensation plan or your pastor's priorities. If you've got 600-2000 people, why can the pastor not afford to replace his worn out clothes?
Because he bought a flat screen?
quote:
Nobody said that the music minister had any hopes of getting a bonus.
He does now and I wonder how many folks feel pressured to give...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/6/2009 7:19:16 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3045
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
I have no way of knowing that. They're expensive, but they're not terribly expensive. Assuming that we're talking about buying new rather than used, $15K doesn't actually get you that much boat. A 15'-17' boat would probably live on a trailer instead of a marina and wouldn't cost much more to operate and maintain than than a motorcycle or a snowmobile.
Having owned a couple I can say that boats require a lot of maintenance... Lucky for me it's what I do for a living....
I've had a couple small ones too. Sure, they require maintenance, but I think you'd agree that there's a pretty big difference in the maintenance costs between a bass boat and a yacht.
quote:
quote:
Nobody said that the music minister had any hopes of getting a bonus.
He does now and I wonder how many folks feel pressured to give...
Does he? I assumed that the letter was used as a means to keep it as a secret.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/6/2009 10:00:06 AM
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sharonjef2007
Posts: 2302
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quote:
Does he? I assumed that the letter was used as a means to keep it as a secret.
LOL....what secret have you ever heard of that was acually kept in a church? Especially one that costs $15,000!
I guess what it comes down to is this, if you think the gift is in line and would like to give, then give. If you don't think it is in line, then don't give. If it really REALLY bothers you, talk to your pastor about it.
If it were me, I would not be giving and talking to my pastor about it. But others may feel differently. That is ok too.
_____________________________
my blog......Picture This.......
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/6/2009 10:49:02 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
I received a letter from my pastor stating that for our music ministers 30th anniversary of service, requesting an offering to pay for a boat the church wants to give him. This boat costs $15,000! I'm having a hard time reconciling that in my mind. Please tell me your thoughts on this and how it would make you feel. if you received the same letter.
How would it make me feel? Sad, very sad.
And if I were the music minister and found out about it, I would put a quick stop to such nonsense. Wonderful giving people should give gifts to those in need and that is where I would encourage and thank them for giving.
_____________________________
Liveloved
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/6/2009 11:02:09 PM
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DoveMinistries
Posts: 308
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Wow, $15,000 love offering, Where's your church? Must be some good music.
30 years of service. I am guessing here, but I bet your music minister doe's not have alot but give's all he has.
Pray about it and the Lord will give you the answer you need.
God Bless
R Dove
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/7/2009 12:22:12 AM
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Aleric
Posts: 75
Joined: 10/31/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
I received a letter from my pastor stating that for our music ministers 30th anniversary of service, requesting an offering to pay for a boat the church wants to give him. This boat costs $15,000! I'm having a hard time reconciling that in my mind. Please tell me your thoughts on this and how it would make you feel. if you received the same letter.
I think it depends on the church and what they're going to do with the boat.
I've been to churhes where you could not feel the Holy Spirit among them if you tried.
The leadership ran the thing exactly like a business and expected a little return for their efforts.
To me, a church that is run according to the bible but out of the Spirit is still run by the flesh and not really a church I would care to visit. Especially if the church elders are looking for a little return.
whenever I donate, I completely expected it to go toward something that promoted Jesus Christ.
And you all have no idea who I am anyway, so telling you that is no big deal.
The point is, I believe any church should put promoting Jesus Christ above all else.
Case in point and not to far of a stretch from what you're saying.
A friend of mine needed a car. (He was in NEED) this wasn't a boat. It was transportation to and from work and everything inbetween. He asked his church to donate the money for a new car and with their help he would put a testimony on the car itself. He offered to drive the car to church solciels, fund raisers and so on and so fourth. Which to me in my eyes was totally promoting Jesus Christ. Not to mention it's the guys every day ride.
He was turned down flat. He got his car, but not by the church.
At any rate, these are hard times. I can see 15grand going toward much more then a boat. And in these times promoting Jesus by a boat that cost 15 grand is just overindulgent by any standards.
Which, I never asked. Are they planning on using the boat to promote Jesus?
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/7/2009 12:30:29 AM
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Aleric
Posts: 75
Joined: 10/31/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
They are not asking for 3 dollars, but $15,000 and it's from the pulpit which means undo influence comes into play, in that some folks because of how it was done will feel pressured to give... Isn't serving the Lord "bonus" enough?
Three dollars a service is exactly what they are asking, just asking it in retrospect and not by the service. I am not saying it is the right thing to do, only putting out there that 30 years of service might merit more than a timex watch, or a covered dish supper.
Thanks
RC
That would mean that he's been a Christian for at least 30 years. Is he suppose to ask Jesus for a boat because he's been cleansed of sin?
I say, praise God you found a church you can stay with for 30 years. Wish I was in his shoes.
I'd love to find a church I want to stay with for 30 years.
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/7/2009 4:04:20 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
I live very modestly and have four kids for who I make sacrifices. Why don't I get a clothing allowance? Oh yeah, I just study the Scriptures, discuss them with those around me and help the poor. I haven't been appointed to perform ceremonies and stand up in front of a group when I speak.
I'm not following your line of thinking here.
My point is that I see no requirement to give anyone anything more than a fair wage just because their profession happens to involve "church" activities.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/7/2009 6:53:45 PM
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truthrevealed
Posts: 720
Joined: 12/6/2007
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A bit confused  . I get an individuals decision not to give. It's a freedom of choice that we've all been given. But what's the problem when it's on others hearts to be a blessing? And more importantly, I thought God Himself is the Giver of all good things(gifts). What on earth difference does it make that this person is paid by the church? Am I missing the scripture that states God doesn't give the desires of the heart to those who get paid money in the church? And---- God does still work thru people doesn't He? He does place it on peoples hearts to be a blessing still, don't He? He doesn't discriminate or is a respector of persons, now, is He? and He can certainly do as He wishes(if He can find non-judgemental and obedient children to work thru----------right?!?!)
< Message edited by truthrevealed -- 7/7/2009 6:59:58 PM >
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/7/2009 7:08:54 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: truthrevealed
A bit confused . I get an individuals decision not to give. It's a freedom of choice that we've all been given. But what's the problem when it's on others hearts to be a blessing? And more importantly, I thought God Himself is the Giver of all good things(gifts). What on earth difference does it make that this person is paid by the church. Am I missing the scripture that states God doesn't give the desires of the heart to those who get paid money in the church? And---- God does still work thru people doesn't He? He does place it on peoples hearts to be a blessing still, don't He? He doesn't discriminate or is a respector of persons, now, is He? and He can certainly do as He wishes(if He can find non-judgemental children to work thru----------right?!?!)
First, "church" funds are generally communal in nature. Therefore, whoever, is making the decision regarding the use of the funds is acting on behalf of all those who contributed.
In the circumstance that this is a "free will offering" in most "churches" this would be equal to hitting up the employees, customers and vendors of a company for the purpose of buying the CEO a boat. Though this is not an impossibility, I have never heard of that happening. In fact, in the last several months many CEO's have been roundly criticized for accepting compensation that had been previously negotiated in an open and published manner. Imagine what would happen if a CEO were to be given a gift of a boat by means of "private" donations from employees, customers and vendors in addition to the negotiated compensation. There would be no doubt loud cries of coersion in principle if not in fact.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/7/2009 7:23:33 PM
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truthrevealed
Posts: 720
Joined: 12/6/2007
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quote:
First, "church" funds are generally communal in nature. Therefore, whoever, is making the decision regarding the use of the funds is acting on behalf of all those who contributed.
In the circumstance that this is a "free will offering" in most "churches" this would be equal to hitting up the employees, customers and vendors of a company for the purpose of buying the CEO a boat. Though this is not an impossibility, I have never heard of that happening. In fact, in the last several months many CEO's have been roundly criticized for accepting compensation that had been previously negotiated in an open and published manner. Imagine what would happen if a CEO were to be given a gift of a boat by means of "private" donations from employees, customers and vendors in addition to the negotiated compensation. There would be no doubt loud cries of coersion in principle if not in fact.
Intresting point! In my case, I'd not want to be a member of a "church" that appropriates funds in any way that goes against scripture(and hopefully my own convictions---if they align with scripture----that is  ).
What happens in the "world" and what happens within the "church" are two different things, but for the sake of your argument. If God wanted to reward openly the desires of a CEO's heart thru whatever means He can find a willing and obedient servant, there are sure to be "cries." Uh, who cares?!?! Back to the "church." If there is no agreement and no trust with the decisions of those in leadership positions, unlike what's popular in a job situation, especially during these times, it might be best to leave and find a "church" where there is agreement between you and the leadership----and prayerfully the leadership and God 
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