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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/8/2009 1:12:02 AM
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truthrevealed
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quote:
It has been stated that the offering would be supplemented by church funds. That seems a subversion of intent. IOW, give or it will be given. The amount of money per service is nothing. I can use such statistics to justify many things. If each of the people in the US give me $1, then I would be considerably wealthy. See?
Wes, I'm not sure I understand all of what you're saying or that you understood where I was coming from  . My point being it doesn't matter if money to bless someone of the "body" comes from their particular church home or not, people are sure to have an opinion and more than likely, not a good one.
On the one hand, if it's not your desire to contribute to the gift, it's your right, I don't see why it's cause for concern what others do if you've already made your own decision.
However, if it's a situation where your offerings will contribute regardless than I'd think God is the one to consult first about said decision and based upon how He leads perhaps a discussion needs to be had with the leadership of the church. It's difficult to discern God's will on a matter when we 1. don't bother to seek Him in the first place 2. instead we complain, grumble and are critical of the decisions of leadership----and as it concerns blessing someone of all things!
I'd be interested in knowing where in scripture God regulates monetary value on the gifts He chooses to bestow upon us----thru people, 'cause gifts ain't spontaneously fallin' from the heavens. Does He say this person shouldn't get a gift of this amount but rather that amount because that's much to extravagent?!?! Smells like flesh to me 
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/8/2009 2:27:18 AM
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truthrevealed
Posts: 720
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quote:
It does become a confusing situation. Mainly because of people's mind set, which it seems like something you're trying to establish.
My position is that not every church is run by the Holy Spirit.
Sometimes people in a church are giving to "the church" and not to God. Which happens quite often and isn't right.
So I guess the most important question to ask is, where are the blessings coming from?
Are people giving this man a boat because they're moved by the Holy Spirit to do so?
Or are they doing it because the Pastor say's they should?
You brought up some good points in one of your other post and that is God does bless us.
But last I checked, Jesus wasn't asking God for a boat and the blessings he received helped him to accomplish God's will.
While on the other hand, God made more then one person overwhelmingly wealthy but again they went out of their way to do God's will.
Aleric, Jesus didn't ask God for a boat, yet God provided one for Him. How else did He and the disciples get to the other side?  
I totally agree with the church being "moved by the Holy Spirit"(or being obedient to God's will which is the same). I don't understand how we will choose to be members of an assembly where there is question of whether the leadership is heeding the voice of God. Naturally, there is no perfect way to "hear" from God and even those in leadership are human (but you seem to---as well as others-- suggest a situation where human limitations/weakness is not the issue, rather, humans who choose to push their own agenda. If there's such mistrust in this area, I say, find another church!!! But you see, I don't think the issue is mistrust of leadership as much as our attitudes about what people should and should not have!
We be-loved and blessed saints  are so preoccupied with who we think deserves this and has earned that in the kingdom and I see God continually confounding the "wise" by doing things that our limited thinking cannot comprehend or believe. So, when people are blessed of the Lord with things that we think are much too extravagent('cause you know, God must be cheap or has limited resources  ) then we fail to remember that indeed, all good gifts are from God---our Father, not man.
Example of human thinking/reasoning; God only blesses those who have gone out of their way to do His will with "certain" gifts of "certain" monetary value. Is our obedience for sale?!? God will be gracious to whom He will be gracious and merciful to whom He will be merciful---and------I think that goes without our input, approval and more importantly our understanding. His thoughts truly are not our thoughts!
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/8/2009 3:22:41 AM
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ironsharpensiron
Posts: 1395
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: Los Angeles
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quote:
Jesus didn't ask God for a boat, yet God provided one for Him. How else did He and the disciples get to the other side?
Probably because the majority of His disciples were fishermen and already had boats..?
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/8/2009 7:37:09 AM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1781
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quote:
suggest a situation where human limitations/weakness is not the issue, rather, humans who choose to push their own agenda. If there's such mistrust in this area, I say, find another church!!! But you see, I don't think the issue is mistrust of leadership as much as our attitudes about what people should and should not have!
I fail to see where you derive this from...Have you read the entire thread?
What agenda could I possibly have for disagreeing with this decision? Stir up trouble? What good does that benefit the church?
My intention is not and never has been to stir up trouble...my problem as stated previously is thinking the church has made a mistake in this decision. No more, no less.
It's not a lack of trust-it's a differing opinion! Huge difference.
Regardless of what some people think, leadership doesn't always make the right choices. They are human too.
People who disagree with the decisions aren't always troublemakers either, consumed with the flesh and any other negative connotation you have placed upon the naysayer! I hardly agree that is a selfish decision on my part to care if he has a boat or not! That makes no sense whatsoever!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/8/2009 8:32:04 AM
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WesP
Posts: 1440
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From: Where God needs me to be
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quote:
On the one hand, if it's not your desire to contribute to the gift, it's your right, I don't see why it's cause for concern what others do if you've already made your own decision.
truthrevealed,
The above portion is one place that causes me problems with the scenario. deliveredarling specifically stated earlier that the funds would be taken from the church to make the purchase if donations were not sufficient. That goes against the will of the body as a whole unless there is a vote from the congregation. Also, the church is failing to meet its goals in certain fundraisers that are missions. Which is more important? What is the purpose of the church?
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/8/2009 1:56:04 PM
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truthrevealed
Posts: 720
Joined: 12/6/2007
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quote:
I fail to see where you derive this from...Have you read the entire thread?
What agenda could I possibly have for disagreeing with this decision? Stir up trouble? What good does that benefit the church?
My intention is not and never has been to stir up trouble...my problem as stated previously is thinking the church has made a mistake in this decision. No more, no less.
It's not a lack of trust-it's a differing opinion! Huge difference.
Regardless of what some people think, leadership doesn't always make the right choices. They are human too.
People who disagree with the decisions aren't always troublemakers either, consumed with the flesh and any other negative connotation you have placed upon the naysayer! I hardly agree that is a selfish decision on my part to care if he has a boat or not! That makes no sense whatsoever!
Delivered......Hi Yes, I've read the entire thread. I pointed out no one specifically in my posts(other than respond to those who responded to me). I've called things how I've read them and it only applies to whom it applies.
I've stated that leadership, we all, are human and I did not call anyone a troublemaker.
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/8/2009 2:05:33 PM
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truthrevealed
Posts: 720
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quote:
truthrevealed,
The above portion is one place that causes me problems with the scenario. deliveredarling specifically stated earlier that the funds would be taken from the church to make the purchase if donations were not sufficient. That goes against the will of the body as a whole unless there is a vote from the congregation. Also, the church is failing to meet its goals in certain fundraisers that are missions. Which is more important? What is the purpose of the church?
Wes, maybe I need to re-read the thread . However, is this thread dedicated for this particular situation? I thought the title suggested a broad subject for conversation?!
I think the purpose of the church, in the context of this discussion, is to do what God directs us to do. It never occurred to me that God can place it on our hearts to give gifts and is incapable of providing for everyone else---the poor, missions etc.
I've already stated that if there is a problem with leadership decisions, we should seek God, first and based upon His leading I believe there are times where we should discuss decisions that affect us as a church with the leadership. Just as there are times where the problem we have has nothing to do with leadership per se, the problem is with us!
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/8/2009 2:12:24 PM
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WesP
Posts: 1440
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quote:
Wes, maybe I need to re-read the thread . However, is this thread dedicated for this particular situation? I thought the title suggested a broad subject for conversation?!
I have been addressing this specific topic. I have made that clear, so you do need to reread regarding my posts.
quote:
I think the purpose of the church, in the context of this discussion, is to do what God directs us to do. It never occurred to me that God can place it on our hearts to give gifts and is incapable of providing for everyone else---the poor, missions etc.
Where do you see that it has occurred to anyone else?
quote:
Just as there are times where the problem we have has nothing to do with leadership per se, the problem is with us!
But this specific case has other considerations.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/8/2009 2:47:48 PM
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truthrevealed
Posts: 720
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Having just read thru the entire thread, again! I'm even more convinced, if I weren't already! I see that the monies is coming from a seperate(voluntary) fund, only if there isn't enough will the funds come from the church at large?!?
As for the rest, it's even more apparent that we fail to remember that God is the Giver of all good things(gifts). With that truth in mind, I'd be interested in knowing, as it concerns God blessing leadership thru the congregants or anyone, anyhow....
Does God place a cap or a quota on blessings? Does He limit the blessings based upon the world's financial situation/predicament? Lord forbid! Using that logic I shouldn't expect that God would bless us with a truck when there are people in the world who walk miles just to get water(and He has blessed us with a truck )
Where in scripture do we get the idea of God that He's "need only?" As "evil" as we are, we enjoy giving gifts to our children, and beam when they enjoy them and boast to their friends, "look what my parents bought for me." God, our Father is much greater than that!!
Also, where in scripture is God saying, "this costs too much, it should be something of less monetary value", as it concerns His outpouring of blessing or Him giving us gifts?
God is the rewarder of diligence. Promotion comes not from the east or the west but from God Himself. God humbles one and exalts the other. It is He that rewards openly (yeah, in front of the "haters", and the "criers") those things we do in secret----in obedience to Him simply because we love Him and serve Him with a glad heart). Then we have people, who don't know what God knows who moan when He openly blesses and rewards us. Yeah, stinkin flesh 
Forgive me for not posting scriptures above, if needed they can be provided
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/8/2009 2:49:16 PM
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truthrevealed
Posts: 720
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quote:
Where do you see that it has occurred to anyone else
Maybe you need to re-read
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/8/2009 5:06:32 PM
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truthrevealed
Posts: 720
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quote:
There are tithes involved. However, this is a matter of receiving an unsolicited gift with no apparent superior/subordinate relationship. If someone actually earns something by contract or receives a gift without appearance of coersion of quid pro quo, there is no problem. However, I am of the opinion that one should follow the example of the patriarchs and show great reluctance in recieving things from others that do not come from a clear exchange of goods and services. I have a similar problem with "voluntary" office collections also. So, all I am saying is that we should be consistant with regard to the exchange of goods and services.
Bluethread, gift without appearance of "coersion" is that what you see in this situation?
We should accept gifts from God with great reluctance?
I'm not sure I get the point you were making with your scripture reference?!
_____________________________
I'll tell the world....where--ever I go. That I, have found, a Savior....and He's sweet I know!!!
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/8/2009 6:25:26 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2923
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quote:
ORIGINAL: truthrevealed
Bluethread, gift without appearance of "coersion" is that what you see in this situation?
When one receives a gift from one over which one has some leverage, i.e. employer/employee, teacher/student, religious leader/follower, there is the appearance of coersion. That is why in many government agencies and professions such gifts are prohibited, unless they are de minimis(token).
quote:
We should accept gifts from God with great reluctance?
If it is clear they are from Adonai, no. However, if they are from or by means of one's fellow man, it is wise to question the motives by taking a reluctant stance. In the Tanach and most mideastern cultures it is common to require the offer be made three times before accepting the gift, as a favor to the giver.
quote:
I'm not sure I get the point you were making with your scripture reference?!
My point is that, apart from the tithes and offerings listed in the Tanach, one is under no obligation to give anything away regardless of how much one receives or has. One is responsible to put what they do have to good use, but these things are required of everybody not just those who have religious jobs.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/9/2009 8:41:53 AM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1781
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quote:
Deliveredareling, is the Church set up where the leadership clears expenditures (possibly over a certain amount) through the congregation?
Or does the leadership just do as they feel they are led in the area of expenditures?
I guess what I am getting at is; is the way the leadership is doing this normal operating proceedure or is it different than the norm?
I honestly do not know the answer to that question. This is the first time I have seen anything of this nature occur. Bear in mind, I have only been a member there for a little over a year now.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/17/2009 9:59:49 PM
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ironsharpensiron
Posts: 1395
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From: Los Angeles
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Not to rehash all that has already been said...but I do wonder what has come of this.
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/18/2009 12:57:57 AM
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DeliveredDarling
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Still in process. I did not approach my leadership. I took it on good authority to just leave it alone and that's what I have done. I'm sure the Lord has it under control without any help from me.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/29/2009 4:52:14 PM
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pray4help
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$15000 sounds like an awful lot! Our church council routinely gives Christmas gifts to the church employees (secretary, custodian, music director, and the Pastor) but we are talking about gifts in the $25 to $50 range. We recently celebrated our Pastor's 20th year with us but since he would pretty much refuse any extravagant gift, we gave money to his seminaries scholarship fund in his honor.
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/29/2009 5:10:52 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1781
Joined: 8/30/2007
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He received the boat and it is beautiful. he was truly surprised and overwhelmed by the gift.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/29/2009 7:40:31 PM
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truthrevealed
Posts: 720
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quote:
He received the boat and it is beautiful. he was truly surprised and overwhelmed by the gift.
What a blessing! And how inspiring. God does give good gifts to His children!
_____________________________
I'll tell the world....where--ever I go. That I, have found, a Savior....and He's sweet I know!!!
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RE: Gifting your leadership in the church - 7/30/2009 12:37:21 AM
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ironsharpensiron
Posts: 1395
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: Los Angeles
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quote:
He received the boat and it is beautiful. he was truly surprised and overwhelmed by the gift.
My concern is what new believer's will take from this. Or for that matter the volunteers who are extremely dedicated, but don't get much of a 'thank you for your service.'
Hmmm...don't really know what to think myself...I'm bordering on disapointment, and wonderment...
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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