Gifting your leadership in the church (Full Version)

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DeliveredDarling -> Gifting your leadership in the church (7/1/2009 9:17:49 AM)

I received a letter from my pastor stating that for our music ministers 30th anniversary of service, requesting an offering to pay for a boat the church wants to give him. This boat costs $15,000! I'm having a hard time reconciling that in my mind. Please tell me your thoughts on this and how it would make you feel. if you received the same letter.



WesP -> RE: Gifting your leadership in the church (7/1/2009 9:50:08 AM)

I visited a church one time because a friend invited me. The pastor stood up after the offering was taken and told the congregation that the deacons would be passing around another offering plate for donations to him for Christmas. I never went back.

I find things of this nature to be totally out of place in church. If people from the church wish to get together to gift someone something that extravagant, then they should do it. However, I would be very unhappy if I was a member, and the leadership decided to spend that much of the church's money on someone's pleasure. It would be much better to use that money for some ministry. Feed some poor people, help a family who's house burned down, etc......



ta_mosquito -> RE: Gifting your leadership in the church (7/1/2009 10:16:54 AM)

I'd give if I wanted to, wouldn't if I didn't.

This is a special "offering" if you want to call it that. (I'd call it a "collection" though, since it's not part of the church budget or anything.) They're asking for voluntary donations over and above. So if you don't want to give, don't.

Easy.



DeliveredDarling -> RE: Gifting your leadership in the church (7/1/2009 10:42:24 AM)

quote:

I visited a church one time because a friend invited me. The pastor stood up after the offering was taken and told the congregation that the deacons would be passing around another offering plate for donations to him for Christmas. I never went back.

I find things of this nature to be totally out of place in church. If people from the church wish to get together to gift someone something that extravagant, then they should do it. However, I would be very unhappy if I was a member, and the leadership decided to spend that much of the church's money on someone's pleasure. It would be much better to use that money for some ministry. Feed some poor people, help a family who's house burned down, etc......



I feel the same way!



Szaftoo -> RE: Gifting your leadership in the church (7/1/2009 11:33:52 AM)

For me it would depend on the church, the recipient and the reason they are asking. It would also depend on if this were a one-time thing or something they do consistently. I have no problem honoring 30 years of ministry and I am guessing the reason it was in the form of a letter was because it's a surprise.

I agree with ta_mosquito, you can either give or decline.



ironsharpensiron -> RE: Gifting your leadership in the church (7/1/2009 12:38:17 PM)

quote:

I agree with ta_mosquito, you can either give or decline.


I'll agree with that as well...

...although a $15000 boat!? With the economy we have today, and people struggling to make ends meet is this a wise 'gift..?'

Matthew



rcjames -> RE: Gifting your leadership in the church (7/1/2009 1:25:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

I received a letter from my pastor stating that for our music ministers 30th anniversary of service, requesting an offering to pay for a boat the church wants to give him. This boat costs $15,000! I'm having a hard time reconciling that in my mind. Please tell me your thoughts on this and how it would make you feel. if you received the same letter.


Scripture is really plain and somple about giving gifts;

(2Co 9:7) Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

So give (or not) as you determine in your heart; and do not be pushed into giving grudgingly or out of necessity.

If you give to help purchase this boat; it must me from a cheerful heart.

Thanks
RC



Conundrum -> RE: Gifting your leadership in the church (7/1/2009 1:34:45 PM)

quote:

However, I would be very unhappy if I was a member, and the leadership decided to spend that much of the church's money on someone's pleasure. It would be much better to use that money for some ministry. Feed some poor people, help a family who's house burned down, etc......


Is it coming out of church funds, or is this a separate, "we want to gift the music pastor, so we're setting up a separate fund for a boat" thing?

I see it as the latter. They're not robbing Peter to pay Paul; they're raising separate, voluntary funds for the gift. It's NOT "the church's money" in this case.

One time, our congregation raised money and gave our pastor a new minivan. He was overwhelmed with gratitude. It was strictly voluntary; the money wouldn't have been available for other things if it hadn't been for the gift, since all monies were given specifically for that.

Now, I suppose a new issue would be whether giving boats or minivans is appropriate when there are starving people in the world, but that's a different issue than raising special funds for a gift.



WesP -> RE: Gifting your leadership in the church (7/1/2009 2:24:21 PM)

quote:

Is it coming out of church funds, or is this a separate, "we want to gift the music pastor, so we're setting up a separate fund for a boat" thing?


I know that it is currently the second choice; however, I would have to wonder if they would use any church funds if they fell short of what they needed. I am not saying they would, but it would certainly be a question in the back of my mind.



DeliveredDarling -> RE: Gifting your leadership in the church (7/1/2009 4:08:07 PM)

It is a separate fund. My problem with it here is-we didn't make our Lottie Moon goal of $30,000. Nor did we make our missions goal of the same amount! Having said that, I will be greatly disheartened to learn that this goal is made![&:]

My other problem with this is that I feel it is excessive. I understand wanting to gift him something for his 30 years of obedience and faithfulness-however a boat???????

Really, there are so many in our church struggling financially. I can't imagine what they must feel upon reading this letter. I am very disappointed in my pastor and the leadership that came up with this idea.
I feel it is out of place and out of line.

Don't get me wrong-I love my pastor! He is an awesome man of God, I just feel that he really missed the boat on this one![:D] (pun intended[:D])



WesP -> RE: Gifting your leadership in the church (7/1/2009 4:22:35 PM)

quote:

My problem with it here is-we didn't make our Lottie Moon goal of $30,000. Nor did we make our missions goal of the same amount! Having said that, I will be greatly disheartened to learn that this goal is made!

My other problem with this is that I feel it is excessive. I understand wanting to gift him something for his 30 years of obedience and faithfulness-however a boat???????

Really, there are so many in our church struggling financially. I can't imagine what they must feel upon reading this letter.


I understand exactly how you feel. Perhaps, my bias comes from personal experiences. With the financial situation I am in, I would be livid if I received the letter.



rawr.ben -> RE: Gifting your leadership in the church (7/1/2009 4:34:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Conundrum

One time, our congregation raised money and gave our pastor a new minivan. He was overwhelmed with gratitude. It was strictly voluntary; the money wouldn't have been available for other things if it hadn't been for the gift, since all monies were given specifically for that.

Now, I suppose a new issue would be whether giving boats or minivans is appropriate when there are starving people in the world, but that's a different issue than raising special funds for a gift.


I think the difference is that a vehicle is more of a need, where a boat, no matter how you look at it, is pure luxury.



doinkdom -> RE: Gifting your leadership in the church (7/1/2009 5:12:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
I received a letter from my pastor stating that for our music ministers 30th anniversary of service, requesting an offering to pay for a boat the church wants to give him. This boat costs $15,000! I'm having a hard time reconciling that in my mind. Please tell me your thoughts on this and how it would make you feel. if you received the same letter.


I'm with you...I'd have a hard time, too.



rcjames -> RE: Gifting your leadership in the church (7/1/2009 7:21:57 PM)

Since it is a separate fund, not forced on anyone; then if one does not want to give; then don't give.

But the one who does not want to give should certainly not be upset because somone else wants to give and does.

Thanks
RC



bolt. -> RE: Gifting your leadership in the church (7/1/2009 7:40:27 PM)

That's really extravagant. Really. We once bought a video camera for a commemorative gift, but to me it's unthinkable to go so far as a boat.

Also, I believe that these things should be done by word of mouth, not by any kind of notice that might be considered 'official Church business' -- in Canada it's illegal (regarding charitable status) for a Church to give a personal gift to a member or leader. The only way to do this would be if 'friends' who happened to go to Church together spontaneously and individually pooled their own private money to give a gift to their other 'friend' who happens to be the pastor. The money can not be made out to the Church and it can not touch Church books.



ironsharpensiron -> RE: Gifting your leadership in the church (7/1/2009 7:54:31 PM)

quote:

One time, our congregation raised money and gave our pastor a new minivan. He was overwhelmed with gratitude


That is a lot different than a boat, especially if the new vehicle was truly needed ~ and in most cases that is the case. I remember growing up we had an old station wagon that my dad kept fixing and fixing until finally the church came forward and helped him, as their pastor, get a newer vehicle. It was a blessing, and very much needed.

Matthew



DeliveredDarling -> RE: Gifting your leadership in the church (7/2/2009 8:09:14 AM)

quote:

Since it is a separate fund, not forced on anyone; then if one does not want to give; then don't give.

But the one who does not want to give should certainly not be upset because somone else wants to give and does.

Thanks
RC


That would be fine. the thing is....the funds that need to be available if the fund is not enough, will come from the church.



DeliveredDarling -> RE: Gifting your leadership in the church (7/2/2009 8:14:24 AM)

quote:


That is a lot different than a boat, especially if the new vehicle was truly needed ~ and in most cases that is the case. I remember growing up we had an old station wagon that my dad kept fixing and fixing until finally the church came forward and helped him, as their pastor, get a newer vehicle. It was a blessing, and very much needed.


I have no problem with this at all! You hit the nail on the head-NEED! For Christmas, we all pitched in (with a special tithe) and gave my pastor new suits. He is a big man and has to have the special made. He had worn his other suits almost thread bare. That was a need.

I'm just still floored by the whole boat thing! I hate to say this, but it's causing me to really question the leadership in my church. I just can't wrap my brain around this decision. Prosperity keeps popping in my head-Uuuuugh.



WesP -> RE: Gifting your leadership in the church (7/2/2009 8:26:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

quote:

Since it is a separate fund, not forced on anyone; then if one does not want to give; then don't give.

But the one who does not want to give should certainly not be upset because somone else wants to give and does.

Thanks
RC


That would be fine. the thing is....the funds that need to be available if the fund is not enough, will come from the church.


THAT is what I was afraid might happen. That is absolutely abhorrent.



rcjames -> RE: Gifting your leadership in the church (7/2/2009 9:11:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

quote:

Since it is a separate fund, not forced on anyone; then if one does not want to give; then don't give.

But the one who does not want to give should certainly not be upset because somone else wants to give and does.

Thanks
RC


That would be fine. the thing is....the funds that need to be available if the fund is not enough, will come from the church.


Then if it is really a bur under your saddle; go speak to the Pastor.

Thanks
RC



DeliveredDarling -> RE: Gifting your leadership in the church (7/2/2009 11:26:26 AM)

quote:


Then if it is really a bur under your saddle; go speak to the Pastor.

Thanks
RC


Honestly, I have considered that. This is the one and only time I have ever heard of our church doing anything like this-so, I'm wondering, whether I should just let it go.... I don't want to stir up unnecessary conflict but on the other hand, I'm really concerned about the people in the congregation. Especially those that are borderline. Will it run them off? Will it offend them to the point that they never consider church again.

These things are easier for a faithful servant to handle and understand than they are for new believers, visitors and the "nominal" Christians.

Especially, for the people that just look for an excuse to leave a church.....

Does that make sense? With our attendance falling.....this is just another reason/excuse for people to use.

Who knows, maybe God is purging the church and this will result in the faithful staying?

I don't know, I'm still praying about what to do. Thank you RC for responding.



WesP -> RE: Gifting your leadership in the church (7/2/2009 11:36:50 AM)

quote:

You hit the nail on the head-NEED! For Christmas, we all pitched in (with a special tithe) and gave my pastor new suits. He is a big man and has to have the special made. He had worn his other suits almost thread bare. That was a need.


For some reason, I cannot get this scenario out of my head. I guess the disparity is just overwhelming me. You have a pastor who needs assistance to purchase suits, and you have a music minister who is about to receive a $15000 boat. Does this strike anyone else as extremely misguided?



bolt. -> RE: Gifting your leadership in the church (7/2/2009 11:43:15 AM)

Yes.



stampinlady -> RE: Gifting your leadership in the church (7/2/2009 12:03:21 PM)

quote:

I'm having a hard time reconciling that in my mind.


You got that right. Why not just send him away for a nice quiet weekend?



Bluethread -> RE: Gifting your leadership in the church (7/2/2009 2:25:26 PM)

If you feel he has earned it, pay his what he is worth. Then he can buy whatever he wants. Why do we seperate the clergy from the free market forces of other professions?



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