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RE: Is it the dog, or the parents?

 
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RE: Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/2/2009 4:56:09 PM   
Mollymouser


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One more semi-related comment ...

At some point, I expect that insurance companies will play a larger role in breed-specific restrictions. How? By refusing homeowner's insurance coverage to certain breeds/mixes? And not just refusing to cover dog-related claims, but refusing coverage altogether. I know that there is a list of 14 dog breeds (some pretty rare) that many insurance companies deem "problematic" and it impacts their underwriting analyses.

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Post #: 26
Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/2/2009 5:38:24 PM   
PinkCarnations

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

I don't blame the dog. I blame the parents for poor dog training and for poor kid training/supervision.

A fair number of bites come from smaller breeds, especially cocker spaniels and chihuahuas. I think most people really don't understand dogs (or cats) and never take the time to really train them--regardless of breed. And because of that, I also think people don't really take the time to train their children how to treat and act around dogs--especially strange dogs, but family dogs as well.


I agree!!

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RE: Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/2/2009 10:05:15 PM   
Karaboo2


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The parents ... they failed to insure the dogs were adequately trained, and also failed to insure that the child was indeed sleeping (and should have monitored that a lot more!)

FWIW, 11 years ago, I had half my face mangled by my neighbour's pitbull. The owner "rescued" it from an abusive home and then went on to abuse it himself. I do NOT blame the dog for the attack. I didn't do anything to provoke it, other than being on its property (I was coaching one of his kids for basketball). I have had reconstructive surgery, as that side of my face literally needed rebuilding.

When my city introduced the plan to ban certain breeds (pits and rotties) I was one of the biggest opponents. Owners have a responsibility to train their animals. People who don't train their dogs shouldn't be allowed to own them. And a problem with banning an entire breed - if someone really wanted to have one of those animals, they will ... and will most likely allow it to attack municipal personnel, etc when they come around to investigate.

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Post #: 28
RE: Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/3/2009 7:03:47 PM   
still4gvn


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when I was about three, my grandmother had some little fluff dog that looked the same from the front or back. It bit me and I bit it back. But grandmother kept us both.
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RE: Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/5/2009 2:57:37 AM   
Brandy


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Parents.

While we have small children we will not have a dog. Period.

When we have older/bigger children we will get a family friendly breed. Not something tiny. Not a beast either, well maybe. I love Dane's.

I would rather wrestle an 90 lb something than a 6 pound chihuahua, but I do agree that a Pit will do far greater damage than the chihuahua. Needle teeth aren't going to kill me, but those Pitty jaws don't let go.

I don't know that I agree with breed banning but I do agree with the idea of restricting based on size of occupancy. Most people can not have successful Pit bull type dogs in small quarters unless they put in the effort to exercise. And I've seen alot of people who don't put forth the effort. I've had to be a part of the team that sits on those dogs while we do things. Not fun. Pitbulls were bred to hunt and fight. Bulls, bears, hogs.. large game that they needed to be strong for. Those muscles are still present today. When I see a super developed dog come in, I wonder what those muscles are being used on. Hoping it wont be my arm ;)

You know it's going to be a bad day when the owner puts his head in and says "Can I have his flower pot? He's not happy today" regarding his 145 lb Rottie who hated us. HATED US. Flower pot was literally a huge plastic flower pot with the bottom cut out to use as a collar for his head to protect us from his teeth, his owner couldn't get a muzzle on him. Owner claims dog is gentle baby at home... hmm.

I've also met the nicest Pit bull ever and loved him dearly.

It's becoming one of the areas that I think maybe you need special classes and a certificate before you are allowed the breed.. but I think there are parents who should take classes and earn the certificate before bringing their kids home too ;)

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Post #: 30
RE: Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/6/2009 8:32:31 AM   
buckifn

 

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Both have to bear some of the blame. I've never known a child who wouldn't do things that are extremely dangerous and I've never known an animal that doesn't have the potential to bite or attack under the right circumstances.

So often people offer up the argument "my child' or "my dog" has NEVER done this or that before and think that is a guarantee it will never happen. WRONG!!

We don't have all the details, but it sounds like the first mistake may have been leaving a 3yr old alone in a room that had a screen in the window and not realizing the child could remove it.
Post #: 31
RE: Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/7/2009 1:02:44 PM   
letusreason


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quote:

ORIGINAL: poetessfree

quote:

ORIGINAL: sharonjef2007

quote:

I understand that any dog can attack but statistically, it is those breeds: pitbulls, rotweilers, etc that are doing the attacking. No matter what spin you put on it, the numbers speak for themselves. If people are going to raise dogs that are wild in nature, keep them locked up so that they won't get sued when their "working" dog attacks another innocent human being.


Please show me the statistics you are talking about.

Here is a story on statistics that may surprise you!


Gladly,

The deadliest dogs
Merritt Clifton, editor of Animal People, has conducted an unusually detailed study of dog bites from 1982 to the present. (Clifton, Dog attack deaths and maimings, U.S. & Canada, September 1982 to November 13, 2006; click here to read it.) The Clifton study show the number of serious canine-inflicted injuries by breed. The author's observations about the breeds and generally how to deal with the dangerous dog problem are enlightening.

According to the Clifton study, pit bulls, Rottweilers, Presa Canarios and their mixes are responsible for 74% of attacks that were included in the study, 68% of the attacks upon children, 82% of the attacks upon adults, 65% of the deaths, and 68% of the maimings. In more than two-thirds of the cases included in the study, the life-threatening or fatal attack was apparently the first known dangerous behavior by the animal in question. Clifton states:

If almost any other dog has a bad moment, someone may get bitten, but will not be maimed for life or killed, and the actuarial risk is accordingly reasonable. If a pit bull terrier or a Rottweiler has a bad moment, often someone is maimed or killed--and that has now created off-the-chart actuarial risk, for which the dogs as well as their victims are paying the price.

Clifton's opinions are as interesting as his statistics. For example, he says, "Pit bulls and Rottweilers are accordingly dogs who not only must be handled with special precautions, but also must be regulated with special requirements appropriate to the risk they may pose to the public and other animals, if they are to be kept at all."

Here is link to website: http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html


The usefulness of statistics is only as good as their representative sample and exclusion of bias, and in this case, it's not hardly.
This is simply a case of inductive reasoning gone awry.

quote:


An Analysis of Merritt Clifton’s Dog Attack Deaths and Maimings, U.S. & Canada -
September 1982 to November 13, 2006, from the National Canine Research Council
Mr. Clifton's "study" can be found on a prominent dog-bite attorney website and is being used as
"statistical evidence" of breed behaviors by those who seem unable or unwilling to recognize the critical errors in data
collection and the damaging and erroneous conclusions drawn from a biased and flawed sample. Merritt Clifton’s scrapbook of
newspaper articles is presented, and often accepted, as an unbiased and accurate representation of dog attacks in
the U.S. and Canada. The title and numbers presented as “statistics” suggest that an
unbiased, scientific methodology was used to achieve the results. However, Mr. Clifton arbitrarily excluded dog attacks in which
the breed of dog was not “identifiable,”
that is, where no one at the scene, or later, claimed to know what kind of
dogs were involved. Also excluded were dogs deemed to be used for guarding, police work or as fighting dogs. The
uncertainty of any alleged breed identification aside, the exclusion of all attacks by dogs where no breed identification was asserted,
combined with the exclusion of dogs used for a specific function, leaves us a list that is utterly unrepresentative of “dog attacks
and maimings” in the U.S. and Canada. Mr. Clifton’s “study” further suffers from the use of a biased
sample. There is no national organization in the U.S. or Canada that collects data on a systematic basis on the
circumstances or specifics of dog bite-related injuries
. In the absence of a professionally reliable data source, news
reports are often substituted in an attempt to identify circumstances surrounding dog attacks. However, newspapers
do not have the interest, desire, resources or ability to provide an accurate or complete profile of dog attacks occurring in the U.S.


This reminds me of how people get fooled on how guns (in themselves) cause violence or death. The media feeds us a barrage of criminal related gun activity stories while virtually ignoring all the ones where people use them to defend themselves from violence while statisticis abound to support the latter is more than the former.

This just proves that people, by in large, are puppets to what the media feeds them.

< Message edited by letusreason -- 7/7/2009 1:16:50 PM >


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All the ways of a man are clean in his own sight, But the LORD weighs the motives.
Post #: 32
RE: Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/7/2009 5:31:18 PM   
SweetLittleErin


Posts: 1722
Joined: 7/20/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Harvie

One more semi-related comment ...

At some point, I expect that insurance companies will play a larger role in breed-specific restrictions. How? By refusing homeowner's insurance coverage to certain breeds/mixes? And not just refusing to cover dog-related claims, but refusing coverage altogether. I know that there is a list of 14 dog breeds (some pretty rare) that many insurance companies deem "problematic" and it impacts their underwriting analyses.


Many companies already have such restrictions. However, most companies will not refuse homeowners coverage completely, but will not offer any liability coverage if you have specific breeds. Also, some companies refuse dog bite liability completely.

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Post #: 33
RE: Is it the dog, or the parents? - 7/8/2009 10:17:57 PM   
shadowspring


Posts: 620
Joined: 5/27/2006
Status: offline
Capitalism at work! That is how it should be. Go insurance companies.

If you are willing to risk everything you own: house, cars, 401k that your pit or Rottie is well-trained, under control, even tempered and not a risk to anyone- then go for it!


The bigger problem is the er, less affluent citizens I know who own and breed pit bulls just because it feeds their egos to own a "bad" dog and they can sell the (flea-infested, malnourished) pups to others of the same ilk for a little cash.

I propose special licenses for larger, deadlier breeds where someone has to show proof of liability insurance or assets up to a certain amount to keep the dog. Maybe they could get a reduced fee permit with proof of spay or neuter.

That won't stop the people I am acquainted with, who are regular law-breakers on every level every day, but it will make it easier for animal control to impound dangerously untrained, unrestrained animals- as well as cut down on the large supply of pit, pit mix puppies for sale in the paper every week.

Then if these people love their dogs like they claim, they will spay/neuter and put up the money. It's a tragedy that, in my city anyway, the people most likely to own a pit or pit mix are the least suitable to own them.

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