Divination in the Bible (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Theology] >> The Bible



Message

Redjasper -> Divination in the Bible (7/1/2009 11:58:07 AM)

We know that God forbids divination as a sin. I would think "casting lots" is one of those. Still there is a passage in the NT that I don't understand.


21 So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.” 23 And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also called Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” 26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles." (Acts 1:21-26, ESV)


Any help appreciated.



MrFribbles -> RE: Divination in the Bible (7/1/2009 12:01:45 PM)

quote:

We know that God forbids divination as a sin. I would think "casting lots" is one of those. Still there is a passage in the NT that I don't understand.


The difference between divination and what happens in Acts 1 is who they're asking for guidance. Diviners (which I guess is a word, maybe?) try and get their knowledge from evil spirits. The Apostles were seeking after God's will. So, what they were doing wasn't divination - or if it technically was, it wasn't the sinful kind that God frowns upon.



DaveW -> RE: Divination in the Bible (7/1/2009 12:11:44 PM)

Their actions were similar to the use of the Urim and the Thummim as portraid in Exodus and Numbers.



Bluethread -> RE: Divination in the Bible (7/1/2009 6:08:10 PM)

Divination in my opinion is replacing an equiry of Adonai with an equiry of someone or something else. If one has done one's best to determine what is best to do without clear direction from Adonai and an action is needed immediately, then it is acceptable to cast lots. This is not the same as "purim" or games of chance. Such may be acceptable as entertainment, but that to is questionable. However, in making a serious decision one should not credit "chance" with anything. This makes "chance" into a supernatural being. One should acknowledge that Adonai is in charge of the universe even when one must flip a coin to make a decision. In the case of the passage you quote, some have argued that they acted presumtiously in appointing another Apostle to replace Judah.



Nick_Drake -> RE: Divination in the Bible (7/2/2009 12:10:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Redjasper

We know that God forbids divination as a sin. I would think "casting lots" is one of those. Still there is a passage in the NT that I don't understand.


21 So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.” 23 And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also called Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” 26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles." (Acts 1:21-26, ESV)


Any help appreciated.

Luke 1:8-9
8Once when Zechariah's division was on duty and he was serving as priest before God, 9he was chosen by lot, according to the custom of the priesthood, to go into the temple of the Lord and burn incense.


Apparently the Apostles were following in that tradition. Which would be appropriate, since they were themselves functioning in the New Covenant priesthood as "ministers(s) of Christ Jesus...with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God..." (Romans 15:16). Replacing Judas by drawing lots definately had a scriptural foundation.


Also, the scapegoat was to be chosen by lot on the Day of Atonement under the law (Lev. 16). And the Land was distributed among the Israelites by lot (Numbers 33:53-54). Casting lots was definately a way God said to use to do specific things under the law.



bob97 -> RE: Divination in the Bible (7/2/2009 12:34:43 AM)

It seems that it is the divine intervention of God which decides the winning number so to speak. It’s a rather difficult procedure for us today to grasp.

Bob



Redjasper -> RE: Divination in the Bible (7/2/2009 11:26:19 PM)

Bob, you said it because that's my understanding now reading all the posts. I never knew casting lots or any form of "godly divination" would be accepted by God when making a decision since He invented prayer for that and He can answer prayers just as quickly as 'casting lots'. They actually prayed first and then did divination so I found that somewhat unusual. But anyway, divine intervention is a mystery because He is God.

Thank you guys for shedding some light on this.



DaveW -> RE: Divination in the Bible (7/8/2009 8:01:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

It seems that it is the divine intervention of God which decides the winning number so to speak. It’s a rather difficult procedure for us today to grasp.
Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.

So God even is in control of games of chance.



Redjasper -> RE: Divination in the Bible (7/11/2009 10:25:07 PM)

Hi Dave, thanks for the quote from Proverbs it really shed lights on the nature of chance in a biblical sense. I think I have more questions on the topic of 'occult' practices, especially in the Old Testament. I find it quite mind-boggling the whys and hows and why God let (instructed?) these things happen or be practiced. For example:


Numbers 5:12-31

I don't want to quote the whole text here because it is a bit long but to summarize my question is that God basically lets a Priest perform "black magic" aka putting a curse while performing a ritual on a woman who commits adultery. The whole process is to induce abortion in the woman.


My questions:
1. Why does God order abortion? Isn't abortion murder?
2. Why does God allow the use of black magic (curse ritual)? I understand that the other alternative would be murder, which is forbidden too but still can't wrap my mind around it.


Help is appreciated.



DaveW -> RE: Divination in the Bible (7/13/2009 9:35:29 AM)

There is nothing in the text that says it abortificant. That is an assumption on your (or whomever's) part.

What is described is not occult (hidden, demonic) but is overtly supernatural.

It was designed to:

1 - deter people from committing adultery
2 - reasure a jealous husband
3 - expose the guilty

The supernatural is supposed to be a part of the believer's life, under all the biblical covenants. Since the devil is not the creative force that God is, he is resigned to making cheap imatations, and that inculdes "occult" practices. They are nothing more than cheap knock-offs of the true supernatural move of God's Spirit.



Redjasper -> RE: Divination in the Bible (7/14/2009 12:56:27 AM)

Dave, thanks for the explanation.

quote:

There is nothing in the text that says it abortificant. That is an assumption on your (or whomever's) part.


The reason why I had this assumption is the following verses:

"When he has made her drink the water, then, if she has defiled herself and has been unfaithful to her husband, the water that brings the curse shall enter into her and cause bitter pain, and her womb shall discharge, her uterus drop, and the woman shall become an excretion among her people" (Numbers 5:27-28, NRSV)

This seems like inducing abortion. What doesn't sink in about these parts of the OT why God instructs this person to murder an unborn baby, it could have been a miscarriage by divine intervention or something like that. It's difficult for me to understand the OT as I'm not a mature Christian and haven't even got enough knowledge to explain these things if someone asks, especially when it comes to Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Numbers and the like. My only understanding why we need the knowledge of the Hebrew Bible is to see God's plan unfolding and the preparation for the coming of Jesus Christ. Maybe I shouldn't be thinking about such things, but I'm curious by nature.



Elena1030 -> RE: Divination in the Bible (7/14/2009 1:10:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Redjasper

Dave, thanks for the explanation.

quote:

There is nothing in the text that says it abortificant. That is an assumption on your (or whomever's) part.


The reason why I had this assumption is the following verses:

"When he has made her drink the water, then, if she has defiled herself and has been unfaithful to her husband, the water that brings the curse shall enter into her and cause bitter pain, and her womb shall discharge, her uterus drop, and the woman shall become an excretion among her people" (Numbers 5:27-28, NRSV)

This seems like inducing abortion. What doesn't sink in about these parts of the OT why God instructs this person to murder an unborn baby, it could have been a miscarriage by divine intervention or something like that. It's difficult for me to understand the OT as I'm not a mature Christian and haven't even got enough knowledge to explain these things if someone asks, especially when it comes to Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Numbers and the like. My only understanding why we need the knowledge of the Hebrew Bible is to see God's plan unfolding and the preparation for the coming of Jesus Christ. Maybe I shouldn't be thinking about such things, but I'm curious by nature.


Could it be that she would have some kind of discharge from that area -- like one might when suffering an infection -- a physical manifestation of the spiritual infection in her? Rather than aborting a baby conceived from adultery?

Just looked at Matthew Henry's Unabridged Commentary online... he explained that the bitter water was not likely harmful in itself... but that God honored the symbolic action... so that the inner sin would have an outer sign.



Redjasper -> RE: Divination in the Bible (7/14/2009 1:33:45 AM)

quote:

Could it be that she would have some kind of discharge from that area



Actually, you are probably right. Earlier in 5:22 says: "now may this water that brings the curse enter your bowels and make your womb discharge, your uterus drop".


Maybe she gets a really painful bowel movement as a punishment for adultery? [:D]
On a more serious note, what would be the purpose to cause an infection or any health problems in her without aborting the baby? If the baby stays alive (no intention of abortion but to punish the woman), it's not an ideal condition for its development and it would be more punishment on him/her than on the woman. (?)



Elena1030 -> RE: Divination in the Bible (7/14/2009 1:37:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Redjasper

quote:

Could it be that she would have some kind of discharge from that area



Actually, you are probably right. Earlier in 5:22 says: "now may this water that brings the curse enter your bowels and make your womb discharge, your uterus drop".


Maybe she gets a really painful bowel movement as a punishment for adultery? [:D]
On a more serious note, what would be the purpose to cause an infection or any health problems in her without aborting the baby? If the baby stays alive (no intention of abortion but to punish the woman), it's not an ideal condition for its development and it would be more punishment on him/her than on the woman. (?)


OH!

Hmm... I was assuming that she didn't conceive at all.

I dunno.



DaveW -> RE: Divination in the Bible (7/14/2009 8:20:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Redjasper

The reason why I had this assumption is the following verses:

"When he has made her drink the water, then, if she has defiled herself and has been unfaithful to her husband, the water that brings the curse shall enter into her and cause bitter pain, and her womb shall discharge, her uterus drop, and the woman shall become an excretion among her people" (Numbers 5:27-28, NRSV)

This seems like inducing abortion.
It does.

However, consider these renderings:

NASB Num 5:27 'When he has made her drink the water, then it shall come about, if she has defiled herself and has been unfaithful to her husband, that the water which brings a curse will go into her and cause bitterness, and her abdomen will swell and her thigh will waste away, and the woman will become a curse among her people.

ESV Num 5:27 And when he has made her drink the water, then, if she has defiled herself and has broken faith with her husband, the water that brings the curse shall enter into her and cause bitter pain, and her womb shall swell, and her thigh shall fall away, and the woman shall become a curse among her people.

JPS Num 5:27 And when he hath made her drink the water, then it shall come to pass, if she be defiled, and have acted unfaithfully against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall fall away; and the woman shall be a curse among her people.

These renderings have no indication of abortive effect.



Redjasper -> RE: Divination in the Bible (7/14/2009 12:42:50 PM)

quote:

OH!

Hmm... I was assuming that she didn't conceive at all.

I dunno.



Yes, there is no way to tell whether the woman gets pregnant or not... so maybe it's more of a spiritual cleansing "ritual" based on a "prescribed recipe" that the Lord already has his curse on.... (?), like it says in

5:24 "the water of bitterness that brings a curse, so that the water which brings a curse will go into her and cause bitterness" (NASB)

The result of the whole cleansing process would be a discharge in a physical sense and also spiritually when the woman says "Amen. Amen" (5:22). So it's not the priest that puts a "hex" or something on the woman (which would be a murder should the woman become pregnant), but the Lord had already cursed the sinful relation whatever the result or no result of that relation. I don't think the NIV is a good translation but it says "may the LORD cause your people to curse" (5:21), meaning the priest is a 'mediator' of the curse.

Is this a far-fetched explanation?



quote:

However, consider these renderings


Interesting why essentially literal translations put it so differently, that's why they are supposed to be "literal", including the NRSV... where do I find the original Hebrew?



DaveW -> RE: Divination in the Bible (7/15/2009 6:42:23 AM)

quote:

where do I find the original Hebrew?
Any Jewish bookstore (online or brick-and-mortar) carries several versions of "Tenach" which is the name of the Hebrew scriptures. Most have an english translation along with it.

Most Christian bookstores carry or can order an interlinear translation which has the Hebrew (or Greek for the NT) and the English together.

But going from one language to another is not just a one-for-one word substitution. Languages all have unique nuances, and semitic languages such as Chaldean, Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, etc. have multiple levels of meanings that are ALL valid, all intended by the author.

Hebrew (before the middle ages) had no vowels in their aleph-bet. Changing a vowel sound can change a word's meaning greatly. An example is the word for bread and the word for life: Lechem and l"chaim respectivly. Both are spelled the same. So is the name of the town Bethlehem "House of Bread" or "House of Life?" Another example is the word for "man." In a question posed in the Talmud the ancient rabbis noted that woman is called "ishah" because she is taken from man "ish." (Gen 1-2) But then they ask why is man "ish" called fire "aish." (both spelled exactly the same in Hebrew)



rrtt11 -> RE: Divination in the Bible (7/15/2009 1:34:37 PM)

It occurred to me that I cast a lots everyday.


I have e-sword set to open to a random verse. Often it is when really need to hear something it will open to a perfect verse for my situation and most often one I had never really paid attention to before. So I look forward to opening the software everyday. Although it will more often than not open to something like

Exo 22:30 You must also do this for your oxen and for your sheep; seven days they may remain with their mothers, but give them to me on the eighth day.

My point is that I am trusting God's soveriegnty over random chance so I am in effect casting lots everyday.



Redjasper -> RE: Divination in the Bible (7/16/2009 4:09:16 AM)

I'm really curious about Biblical Hebrew, which I intend to learn more about once I'm settled in my new profession and can embark on "love" learning, not only what I "have to". I believe the Hebrew original must be great help for the "pentateuchally challenged" [:)]

I love your example of your casting lots, rrtt11.

Thanks for all the help.



Page: [1]



Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5 ANSI