quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven
"Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." John 14:10

 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know" Acts 2:22

In the same way that Jesus fulfilled His role by living in total dependence upon His indwelling Father, so He now says to us...

"Apart from me you can do nothing". John 15:5

To say that a life lived in dependence upon Christ and His sufficiency is being a puppet, is blasphemy. So much for your ability to be holy.

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To say that a life lived in dependence upon Christ and His sufficiency is being a puppet

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ORIGINAL: URForgiven
"Apart from me you can do nothing". John 15:5

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Living Holy Lives? Keeping oneself separate from the world? What do these things mean? These subjects are hardly talked about anymore.

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ORIGINAL: drmark

BTW, I am quite sure that RC claims no personal "ability to be holy". And neither do I!

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Well then, whose ability is it?

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ORIGINAL: drmark

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Well then, whose ability is it?

The ability to live holy comes from God and is bestowed on us by His grace through our faith in Christ. We must choose to exercise our God-given ability to live our personal and unique lives in holiness while He supplies the grace and power we need to do this. I cannot make it any clearer than that, URF - please do so if you can!

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Do you have this ability or not? RC said He did.

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By whose abililty are you made holy, and by whose ability are you continued to be made holy?

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ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Do you have this ability or not? RC said He did. Then you said neither of you do. Now you are again saying that you do. By whose abililty are you made holy, and by whose ability are you continued to be made holy?

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

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Do you have this ability or not? RC said He did.

What "ability" are you discussing now, URF? I clearly stated in post #32 that I have a God-given ability to live my own life in holiness, by God's grace and power. I see not a single post in this thread where RC claims to have some mysterious ability of his own to live holy. Please cite it for me if I missed it.

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By whose abililty are you made holy, and by whose ability are you continued to be made holy?

So now you've twisted the wording around to "made holy" instead of living holy. No matter, URF, the concept is the same. In fact, being made holy and living holy are contingent on each other. The major difference is that God first makes us holy which then empowers us to live holy as He continues keeping us holy, all of which is by God's grace and power through our faith expressed in trust and obedience to Christ.

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ORIGINAL: rcjames

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ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Do you have this ability or not? RC said He did. Then you said neither of you do. Now you are again saying that you do. By whose abililty are you made holy, and by whose ability are you continued to be made holy?

A Believer can be Holy by the Grace of God, the Sacripfice of Christ (and our belief in that), and the Ministry of the Holy Spirit. All believers have the "Ability" to choose, and that ability to choose comes from God; but God does not make the choice for us to either be Holy or to sin.

That choice is well laid out in;

(1Co 10:13) No temptation has taken you but what is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above what you are able, but with the temptation also will make a way to escape, so that you may be able to bear it.

God makes the way, the Christian makes the choise to take the way out (or not).

It ain't rocket Science URF.

Thanks
RC

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So you personally have a God given ability to personally choose to be holy. But it isn't a personal ability. Now I got it.

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ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Don't you mean that a Believer is holy because of the grace of God? Specifically because they have received God's Grace through their choice to accept Christ?

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ORIGINAL: rcjames

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ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Don't you mean that a Believer is holy because of the grace of God? Specifically because they have received God's Grace through their choice to accept Christ?

When one accepts (Has Faith in, Believes in) Christ as Son of God, Lord, and Savior; they are Justified before God, become His children, recieve the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and stand sanctified (holy) before God.

They become New Creatures (2 Cor 5:17), the old man is crucified with Christ (Romans 6:6), they were made free from sin, and became servants to righteousness (Romans 6:18).

From that point on in thier lives then can either choose to sin or not to sin when the temptation arises (1 Corinthians 10:13), and the choices they make can either bring condemnaton or not; dependant on if they chose to follow thier flesh, or to follow the Spirit (Romans 8:1).

If a Christian chooses to sin; there is no one or no thing that they can lay ther responsibility for that sin on; except themselves. If that Christian continues in sin, believing that they have to sin, or cannot keep from sinning then they need to go to a different verse;

(2Co 13:5) (2Co 13:5) examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith, prove your own selves. Do you not know your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are reprobates?

How does one live a Holy life; by the Grace of God in offering us Salvation, by the Sacrifice of Chist offering us a chance for justification, and by the ministry of the Holy Spirit leading and guiding us. Oh yea, not to forget us choosing to follow after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

Thanks
RC

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ORIGINAL: URForgiven
The Believer is sanctified as a result of being justified. What you have done is reverse that order and made justification the result of being sanctified. Which explains most of the rest of your confusion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven
"Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." John 14:10

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 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know" Acts 2:22

quote:

In the same way that Jesus fulfilled His role by living in total dependence upon His indwelling Father, so He now says to us...

"Apart from me you can do nothing". John 15:5

To say that a life lived in dependence upon Christ and His sufficiency is being a puppet, is blasphemy. So much for your ability to be holy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Don't you mean that a Believer is holy because of the grace of God? Specifically because they have received God's Grace through their choice to accept Christ?

When one accepts (Has Faith in, Believes in, loves) Christ as Son of God, Lord, and Savior; they are Justified before God, become His children, recieve the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and stand sanctified (holy) before God.

They become New Creatures (2 Cor 5:17), the old man is crucified with Christ (Romans 6:6), they were made free from sin, and became servants to righteousness (Romans 6:18).

From that point on in thier lives then can either choose to sin or not to sin when the temptation arises (1 Corinthians 10:13), and the choices they make can either bring condemnaton or not; dependant on if they chose to follow thier flesh, or to follow the Spirit (Romans 8:1).

If a Christian chooses to sin; there is no one or no thing that they can lay ther responsibility for that sin on; except themselves. If that Christian continues in sin, believing that they have to sin, or cannot keep from sinning then they need to go to a different verse;

(2Co 13:5) (2Co 13:5) examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith, prove your own selves. Do you not know your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are reprobates?

How does one live a Holy life; by the Grace of God in offering us Salvation, by the Sacrifice of Chist offering us a chance for justification, and by the ministry of the Holy Spirit leading and guiding us. Oh yea, not to forget us choosing to follow after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

Thanks
RC

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ORIGINAL: rcjames

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ORIGINAL: URForgiven
The Believer is sanctified as a result of being justified. What you have done is reverse that order and made justification the result of being sanctified. Which explains most of the rest of your confusion.

Faith in Christ brings justification before God for past sins, sets the stage for sanctificaton (being set apart for service unto God). No confusion there except in your refusal to believe that Christians have a free will to choose to either serve the flesh, or to serve God though following the Spirit.

Again; do you not believe that Christians have free will?

Are you Calvinist?

or do you just like to argue?

Thanks
RC

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ORIGINAL: TMeeks

As with most people that wander off into error, you take a few verses that you think prop up your position and ignore all the rest of the Bible. In your case, you seemed to be saying that God calls us to DO things and MAKE CHOICES simply to show us we can't.

What really is sad about your arguments is that you seem perfectly willing to ignore the context and purposes of Biblical text to make your point seem valid. This is exactly what one expects from cultists, not legitimate Bible scholars. Take this one, for instance:

quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven
"Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." John 14:10

If you really cared to understand that verse you would realize that Jesus wasn't using it to tell the disciples that they could do nothing and had to completely empty their minds to accomplish God's work. He was explaining that he was going away and that they coould trust where he was going. I'll let everyone read the context to see how you're twisted the application.

John 14,2-11
2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
4 You know the way to the place where I am going." 5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" 6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." 8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." 9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." 22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?" 23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

25 "All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, 31 but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me. "Come now; let us leave"


Now, anyone reading this sees some glaring statements. First the Holy Spirit will teach us and remind us. Where is the DO EVERYTHING FOR US part? Second the glaring truth is that we are to OBEY... which is both a HUMAN CHOICE and a HUMAN ACTION. There is nothing that says sit back and let me do everything for you. Moreover, the very verse that you selected, when viewed in the context of the entire passage shows that Jesus was trying to make the point that he was not just another prophet. Rather, he was God and ONE WITH THE FATHER. He was IN the Father and the Father was in Him. He was trying to explain his place in the Trinity. To twist that to show that we have no responsibility to do God's will is prepostrous.

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 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know" Acts 2:22

Again, you fail to consider context. That context tells us that Peter was speaking to devout Jews and was moving from their place of familiarity to a new understanding of Jesus Christ. Could he have said, in this context, that Jesus was the third person of the Trinity? No. He made the connection between Jesus, of whom they might be skeptical, and the Father who they completely trusted. The people had be told that Jesus' miraculous powers where from satan. Peter wants them to know that every single miracle came from Jesus unity with God the Father... THEIR God. Of COURSE God performed the miracles. Jesus WAS GOD.

quote:

In the same way that Jesus fulfilled His role by living in total dependence upon His indwelling Father, so He now says to us...

"Apart from me you can do nothing". John 15:5

To say that a life lived in dependence upon Christ and His sufficiency is being a puppet, is blasphemy. So much for your ability to be holy.

Wow! You had to REALLY butcher the Scripture to use that one to support your error. Here is the real context.

John 15
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8 This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

OF COURSE we can't bear fruit for Jesus Christ if we cut ourselves off from Him. But, this whole passage is about a UNION between God and Man. It is not about a hijacking. Your position takes a valid Scriptural concept and pushes it into error. We are grafted in. But, WE are still WE. We are not simply some automaton posing as WE. We are even told to DO things in this passage. We are told "to remain in my love", "obey my commands" and to "love one another". Every one of these are expectations that Jesus placed on his disciples to do. And, with the other verses that I've posted we see that it is the Holy Spirit that will guide us to do them.

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ORIGINAL: URForgiven
I understand your need to place people in neat little categories RC. I understand how that makes it easier for you to deal with people as things rather than as persons. But you personal prejudices have no place in a discussion on holiness.

I accept only the label of Christian. Deal with me on that basis, or do not deal with me at all.

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ORIGINAL: drmark

Don't forget URF's third category - those whom God renders into mindless robots unable to follow anyone or anything because He controls them completely. Although, it seems only one person I've ever known falls into this third category.

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ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Once again you mischaracterize my beliefs, and you continue to argue with yourself.