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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; attack congregation
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/6/2009 4:24:07 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6366
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cosmiceyes
Are you kidding me? And the others on here saying that the police basically used good judgement, should be ashamed of yourselves. There is known fact that police use excessive force, and I'd say most times, unnecessarily. We are christians, supposedly on this site, and to say had the pastor not interferred... I just can't believe what I'm hearing. And these kinds of morals are just why the church is so messed up.
Actually the problem with the church is found with the attitude of the pastor... No respect for authority. no fear of God...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/6/2009 9:11:29 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6724
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Well stated. It should only be a very radical situation in which a Christian physically interferes with a law enforcement officer. This wasn't one of those situations.
From the Houston newspaper's reports on the incident; that is exactly they type situation that it was.
Even without the pushing and shoving by the Pastor; just closely approaching an officer when he is dealing with a suspect is enough to get arrested for.
Of course the officer could have called Immigration and 90% of the congregation would have fled without the use of pepper spray.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/6/2009 9:47:06 AM
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laura...
Posts: 3278
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: NE Ohio
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Here is an excerpt from the Houston Chronical on the incident;
quote:
According to Smiley, an officer was talking with a motorist in the church parking lot when he ran a registration check and discovered the man had no car insurance.
Moran approached the officer and began yelling at him, demanding to know why a member of his congregation had been stopped, the police chief said.
“He said we were on private property and wanted us off the property,” Smiley said. “He was pretty aggressive.”
When Moran refused an order to leave, the officer told him that he was under arrest. Moran pushed the officer as he tried to handcuff him, Smiley said, and fled inside the church.
Moran later came out with a group of about 40 people who surrounded the officer, Smiley said. The officer, fearing for his safety, used pepper spray to disperse the crowd.
When backup officers tried to make the arrest, Smiley said Moran pushed another officer, who used his Taser to subdue him.
From this report it seems to me that the authorities were well within their rights, and the Pastor was way out of line.
Thanks
RC
So, it wasn't even the original officer who used the taser. It was a back up officer.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/6/2009 11:26:04 AM
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cow451
Posts: 3743
Joined: 5/6/2005
Status: online
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File this incident under Arguments Against Intelligent Design.
_____________________________
"As Putin rears his head and comes into the air space of the United States of America, where do they go? It's Alaska. It's just right over the border." Sarah Palin
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/8/2009 7:59:49 AM
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huangshan
Posts: 2308
Joined: 8/6/2008
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Eh. I think police forces in general are a necessary evil that must be restrained as much as possible. I think they're one of the first and most oppressive means of an authoritarian government asserting its will. I think they often spectacularly fail at serving and protecting and that even the good officers are forced to conform to a corrupt, self-serving, and increasingly militarized system.
I don't think the pastor should have been shot with the taser, but I do think he was an idiot, same with the crowd of people he brought with him. The cops overreacted to people being stupid. Bad on the police overreacting, bad on the dumb people they hurt.
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/8/2009 8:28:18 AM
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_jjp_
Posts: 1815
Joined: 10/25/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
Eh. I think police forces in general are a necessary evil that must be restrained as much as possible. I think they're one of the first and most oppressive means of an authoritarian government asserting its will. I think they often spectacularly fail at serving and protecting and that even the good officers are forced to conform to a corrupt, self-serving, and increasingly militarized system.
The overwhelming majority of cops are upstanding individuals and those of us who are not on a mission to tear them down support the good cops despite the very few who are corrupt.
quote:
I don't think the pastor should have been shot with the taser, but I do think he was an idiot, same with the crowd of people he brought with him. The cops overreacted to people being stupid. Bad on the police overreacting, bad on the dumb people they hurt.
How did the cop overreact when he was confronted with a clearly angry crowd and a combative person interferring with his legal duties?
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/8/2009 8:36:56 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2604
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
How did the cop overreact when he was confronted with a clearly angry crowd and a combative person interferring with his legal duties?
Due to lack of information and only hearsay evidence from either side, this is nothing but conjecture. The truth is going to be found in the middle of the statements of both sides.
I don't believe police are always in the wrong but I do believe that they aren't always in the right.
I'd really like to hear the police radio chatter and see some dashboard cam video before I make any assumptions for either side.
There is no one I know who is immune to lying, with or without a badge.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"Freedom comes with an educated mind." - Jacqueline Rushing
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/8/2009 8:50:14 AM
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_jjp_
Posts: 1815
Joined: 10/25/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
How did the cop overreact when he was confronted with a clearly angry crowd and a combative person interferring with his legal duties?
Due to lack of information and only hearsay evidence from either side, this is nothing but conjecture. The truth is going to be found in the middle of the statements of both sides.
I don't believe police are always in the wrong but I do believe that they aren't always in the right.
I'd really like to hear the police radio chatter and see some dashboard cam video before I make any assumptions for either side.
There is no one I know who is immune to lying, with or without a badge.
I have looked at the statements of the cops and the congregants and some very important points match up between the two that lead me to believe the cop's story.
1. The pastor approached the cop who was performing the duties of his job LEGALLY and refused to step away when told
2. The pastor proceeded to enter the church in defiance of the Policeman's demands to stop
3. the pastor and the congregation exited the church and approached the policeman.
4. the policeman called in back up to help with arresting the pastor for interferring with police business.
5. the crowd was sprayed with pepper spray and the pastor was tazed
none of these facts are disputed, the only point of contention is whether the policeman escalated the issue at the road side when the Pastor failed to comply with a legal demand or if the pastor became combative at that point. Neither issue negates the fact that the policeman was approached by an angry congregation led by the pastor and was outnumbered 30 to 1. I full well understand that cops can and do lie but when you look at the statements of both sides the only point of contention is who was at fault for escalating the situation. No one is disputing that the pastor approached the officer demanding information while the officer was in the process of carrying out his official duties, no one disputes that the congregation did approach the officer after the pastor went back into the church. The officer at that point was well within his bounds to use pepper spray to defend himself. Had the pastor not continued to resist arrest when the back up officer arrived, he would not have been tazed. I have a very simple philosophy when it comes to my dealings with officers, I don't push them to the point where they have even the slightest provocaton to spray, taze, shoot, beat me.
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/9/2009 12:12:08 AM
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huangshan
Posts: 2308
Joined: 8/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
Eh. I think police forces in general are a necessary evil that must be restrained as much as possible. I think they're one of the first and most oppressive means of an authoritarian government asserting its will. I think they often spectacularly fail at serving and protecting and that even the good officers are forced to conform to a corrupt, self-serving, and increasingly militarized system.
The overwhelming majority of cops are upstanding individuals and those of us who are not on a mission to tear them down support the good cops despite the very few who are corrupt.
I think cops are only slightly more trustworthy than politicians. I think the job attracts two kinds of people: the kind who sincerely want to serve and protect the community and the kind who are attracted to power and authority. Due to the corrupting nature of power, I think it's only reasonable to assume that more good apples go bad than vice versa.
I'd also like to repeat what I said about good officers being forced to conform to an extremely unhealthy system.
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/9/2009 9:08:42 AM
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_jjp_
Posts: 1815
Joined: 10/25/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
I think cops are only slightly more trustworthy than politicians. I think the job attracts two kinds of people: the kind who sincerely want to serve and protect the community and the kind who are attracted to power and authority. Due to the corrupting nature of power, I think it's only reasonable to assume that more good apples go bad than vice versa.
I'd also like to repeat what I said about good officers being forced to conform to an extremely unhealthy system.
I think based on what you see in the country that you choose to reside I can understand your views but don't agree one bit. The vast majority of cops are truly honest people who are not power hungry people looking to hold court over the general populace. They are certainly much much better than politicians. The system may not be perfect but it is far from "unhealthy".
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/9/2009 10:22:06 AM
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huangshan
Posts: 2308
Joined: 8/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
I think cops are only slightly more trustworthy than politicians. I think the job attracts two kinds of people: the kind who sincerely want to serve and protect the community and the kind who are attracted to power and authority. Due to the corrupting nature of power, I think it's only reasonable to assume that more good apples go bad than vice versa.
I'd also like to repeat what I said about good officers being forced to conform to an extremely unhealthy system.
I think based on what you see in the country that you choose to reside I can understand your views but don't agree one bit. The vast majority of cops are truly honest people who are not power hungry people looking to hold court over the general populace. They are certainly much much better than politicians. The system may not be perfect but it is far from "unhealthy".
I lived in the U.S. for a while too. I'll be back for another year starting next month. I was principally concerned with U.S. police, though I've personally born witness to some pretty awful abuses of power by Chinese police. In general, they're only as corrupt as the rest of the government here.
I don't see what basis your statement has when applied to U.S. police forces though. There are large numbers of individual cases, as well as large numbers of obvious systematic abuses that are all over the U.S. map. Even the good cops, which I admit are many, have to be in the same departments that ace corrupt and support corrupt cops. The system is awful, and it encourages awfulness.
Police should be treated with as much suspicion, if not more than, the government itself.
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/9/2009 10:30:39 AM
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WesP
Posts: 1440
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
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quote:
Police should be treated with as much suspicion, if not more than, the government itself.
That pretty much kills innocent until proven guilty, which is supposedly our underlying premise. That would pretty much aline us with Communist and religiously governed Islamic countries. No?
Now, I understand that there are numerous abuses in the system. Have you considered the percentage of cases in which this happens? If so, what is it? I do not see the abuses as being the norm. I see them as the exceptions. If there is proof otherwise, would you provide that info? Thanks.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/9/2009 1:43:28 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 1815
Joined: 10/25/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
I think cops are only slightly more trustworthy than politicians. I think the job attracts two kinds of people: the kind who sincerely want to serve and protect the community and the kind who are attracted to power and authority. Due to the corrupting nature of power, I think it's only reasonable to assume that more good apples go bad than vice versa.
I'd also like to repeat what I said about good officers being forced to conform to an extremely unhealthy system.
I think based on what you see in the country that you choose to reside I can understand your views but don't agree one bit. The vast majority of cops are truly honest people who are not power hungry people looking to hold court over the general populace. They are certainly much much better than politicians. The system may not be perfect but it is far from "unhealthy".
I lived in the U.S. for a while too. I'll be back for another year starting next month. I was principally concerned with U.S. police, though I've personally born witness to some pretty awful abuses of power by Chinese police. In general, they're only as corrupt as the rest of the government here.
I don't see what basis your statement has when applied to U.S. police forces though. There are large numbers of individual cases, as well as large numbers of obvious systematic abuses that are all over the U.S. map. Even the good cops, which I admit are many, have to be in the same departments that ace corrupt and support corrupt cops. The system is awful, and it encourages awfulness.
Police should be treated with as much suspicion, if not more than, the government itself.
I only got a few articles in before i realized none of them showed where there had been any proof of wrong doing to come out in lawsuits or court cases. I distrust "journalists" even more than i distrust government. These parasites play on people's fears to get ratings. One of the article you posted stated that it had been a long time between officer involved shootings so not sure how that is an indication of corruption. Another one is an article about officers shooting a family's dogs during a raid, is it so hard to believe that the dog was defending the home and for the safety of the officers had to be taken down? Even if every one of your stories is 100% true it still represents a minute number of law enforcement agencies in the country. Your distrust of authority and your willingness to apply isolated cases to all cops is not an indicator of a corrupt system.
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/9/2009 1:45:58 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 1815
Joined: 10/25/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
Police should be treated with as much suspicion, if not more than, the government itself.
Reading one of your articles it is about municipalities accepting surplus military rifles to outfit it's cops.
How is that in anyway corrupt?
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/9/2009 1:50:31 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 1815
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Another one of your articles was about prosecutors using a dog to attempt to identify those present at the scene of a crime and those people being sent to jail. A JURY SENT THESE PEOPLE TO JAIL SO I GUESS YOU ARE SAYING THE ENTIRE NATION IS CORRUPT.
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/9/2009 1:53:33 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 1815
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Another story that you posted complains that an off duty cop in a hit and run case didn't get a breathalyzer for four hours BUT THE OFF DUTY COP WAS STILL HELD ON $2 MILLION BAIL.
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/9/2009 1:57:49 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 1815
Joined: 10/25/2007
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Yet another article is about a cop driving way over the speed limit with his lights off. How is that corruption?
I see now why you assume a corrupt system when you consider a cop still being charged even when his breathalyzer was old and a cop driving without lights is corruption. Spare me your lectures if this is your evidence.
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/13/2009 12:03:37 PM
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huangshan
Posts: 2308
Joined: 8/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
Police should be treated with as much suspicion, if not more than, the government itself.
That pretty much kills innocent until proven guilty, which is supposedly our underlying premise. That would pretty much aline us with Communist and religiously governed Islamic countries. No?
No, and I submit that you don't quite understand the concepts of "suspicion" and "innocent until proven guilty".
quote:
Now, I understand that there are numerous abuses in the system. Have you considered the percentage of cases in which this happens? If so, what is it? I do not see the abuses as being the norm. I see them as the exceptions. If there is proof otherwise, would you provide that info? Thanks.
I don't think reliable statistics exist on the matter. I provided links of two categories: abuses perpetrated by individuals (which could conceivably just be a few bad apples, if only so many of them didn't sound alike (_jjp_ brings up one of my links involving police needlessly blowing away a dog. Do a Google search of "puppycide" to get an idea of how this is hardly isolated). The other group of links involve department wide corruption of varying degrees of seriousness.
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RE: Texas Police shoot Pentecostal pastor with taser; a... - 7/13/2009 12:26:56 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2604
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GraceyGirl
http://www.txcn.com/sharedcontent/dws/txcn/houston/stories/khou090708_tnt_webster-pastor-taser.1edba2d9.html
Hmmmm - looks like the judge is interested in knowing a little more.
Have they sealed the transcript for this case? It would be interesting to see what transpired at this prelim hearing to make the judge request additional information. I thought it was supposed to be a cut and dried case of obstruction?
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"Freedom comes with an educated mind." - Jacqueline Rushing
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They are human just like the rest of us, otherwise a department called "internal affairs" would have no need to exist. 
s. 
ROTFLOL!!! 
