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There seems to be a movement Prosperity Gospel vs Wrath and Hell
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There seems to be a movement Prosperity Gospel vs Wrath... - 7/3/2009 12:50:26 PM
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supernova1976
Posts: 350
Joined: 9/3/2008
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Is it me, or does there need to be a balance. As may Joel Osteens I see preaching things that are WAAAAAYYY too watered down, there seems to be a growing movement of preachers I have seen rise up preaching a message that is WAAAAAYYY to extreme lacking any of the qualities of the gospel message that offer hope and grace. In one message I heard lately- he went on about hell and wrath and the whole "if you think praying a prayer will save you you are mistaken" (Which I TOTALLY agree with btw) but he never defined to a believer what true repentance is- he stated that repenting of punishment is not sin etc.... I think they need to be clear- also I agree with the second message- the "wrath and hell" approach, but I find they need to also have some balance. I know I am gonna get slammed lol.
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RE: There seems to be a movement Prosperity Gospel vs W... - 7/3/2009 1:57:44 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 3792
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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You know that in scripture there are all these warnings to not turn away from the instructions of the Lord to the right or to the left.
You can err on one extreme or you can err in the other extreme. Makes no difference as both are in error. We are instructed by Paul to "speak the truth in love." Truth with no love is error, and love with no truth is also error.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: There seems to be a movement Prosperity Gospel vs W... - 7/3/2009 3:40:20 PM
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RustyCarr
Posts: 972
Joined: 3/11/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: supernova1976
Is it me, or does there need to be a balance. As may Joel Osteens I see preaching things that are WAAAAAYYY too watered down, there seems to be a growing movement of preachers I have seen rise up preaching a message that is WAAAAAYYY to extreme lacking any of the qualities of the gospel message that offer hope and grace. In one message I heard lately- he went on about hell and wrath and the whole "if you think praying a prayer will save you you are mistaken" (Which I TOTALLY agree with btw) but he never defined to a believer what true repentance is- he stated that repenting of punishment is not sin etc.... I think they need to be clear- also I agree with the second message- the "wrath and hell" approach, but I find they need to also have some balance. I know I am gonna get slammed lol.
supernova,
Your insight is very good. Preaching is a skill that also requires a gift from God. Insight that helps the preacher to remember both sides of the fine line of TRUTH. Even as I write, I don't want to over-emhasize one side or the other.
I am also somewhat amused at your discerning mind while you are listening to what others say. My wife would scold me for commenting and expounding on sermons after church. "Why are you so critical," she would say.
Well, I think I have found the answer. It is "the kingdom of God/heaven."
Hell fire and brimstone emphasizes the natural consequences of sin. Most pastors follow this up with a call to repentance. That is good, but what is missing?
Prosperity, grace, and a loving foregiving God emphasizes our Father's love and longsuffering. These preachers, too, have a call to come forward and accept our Father's forgiveness because He wants to bless you. That is good, but what is missing?
THE KINGDOM OF GOD/HEAVEN IS MISSING!
Mt 4:17 "From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.”
Mt 6:33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
Mt 13:44 “The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.
Mt 13:45 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls.
Mt 13:46 When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it.
Ac 28:31 Boldly and without hindrance he preached the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ.
The kingdom of God/heaven can be found. It neither emphasizes the natural consequnces of sin, nor the grace and mercy of God, but simply requires individuals the place the WHOLE Truth in their heart, and love it enough to do it, AND LEAVE BEHIND ERROR AND MISUNDERSTANDING.
It is a "want to" kingdom, not a "have to or else" kingdom, and not a "I am okay because I am forgiven for all things past and future" kingdom.
The have to or else preaching leaves out the joy of simply WANTING TO SERVE GOD BECAUSE I LOVE GOD.
The "I am okay" preaching causes complacency and misunderstanding. It requires little service in reaching the lost AND simply passing on the kingdom to your offspring. Think of this: what does "I am okay" preaching have to offer the lost? To me it offers, "Convince yourself that you are saved (without serving) and you can find happiness and prosperity by minimally serving and knowing the Truth."
Hellfire and brimstone doesn't offer the joy in the kingdom either, just "or else."
But there is a kingdom of God and it can be found! It can be passed on to your children. It is not of this world because we have been called out of the world to be the light of His kingdom.
When we place the kingdom of God/heaven within us, we have a king and a Father who is with us at all times. Guiding our footsteps, leading us into the Truth, and encouraging us to share God's love with family, friends, and neighbors. And when we do this correctly, we will have the kingdom "among" us because we are wise enough to avoid sin and those "hellfire" natural consequences of sin.
Note: some translations use "within you" in Luke 17:21, another translation uses "among."
I don't think I have ever heard a sermon on finding a treasure in a field... and placing it within you... because you want to... because He loved you enough to give His life for you... so that you COULD place His kingdom and Truth within you.
Check it out. Search the gospels and try to imagine what it would be like if everyone had His kingdom within them, instead of their own version or someone else's version, or just parts of God's version..... Wouldn't we be DOING God's will, and avoiding the painful and confusing nonsense? Wouldn't God bless us as we loved one another as God would have us do it?
WAKE UP CHURCH! 1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Be born again and seek a renewing of the mind.. then you will know and love the Truth, and the Truth will set you free.
Blessings,
Rusty
_____________________________
It is better to obey God rather than men. The Truth, God's word, within is the lamp that guides our feet. -For the Lord gives wisdom, and from His mouth come knowledge and understanding. Prov. 2:6-
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RE: There seems to be a movement Prosperity Gospel vs W... - 7/3/2009 4:32:09 PM
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delete123
Posts: 541
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SuperNova~
I can certainly relate, however when one has to recover from the latter of preachers Joel Olsteens message can pick one up. I do not agree btw with either.
A pastor, Priest, or Minister should himself be balanced in giving the message as was pointed out by Dave W.
Some pastors want to sugarcoat the truth and others are brutally harsh in their message without even thinking what they are doing to the receivers.
Believe me I struggle with this, because I actually went to a church of the doom and gloom. I left there totally negative and wonder what on earth am I here for. It has actually taken the Lord years along with some of His faithful believers to help mend my faith, belief and path of life.
All I can say is I hope it does not become a widespread epidemic, because then we will find ourselves trying to save the saved, because they have lost sight with all the negativity and start evaluating themselves about the plank in their eye.
Just another satan trap to get our eyes off Jesus and onto ourselves.
Believe me when I tell you this, it has been a long road to find ones ways back. I was a new Christian (baby if you will. Saved a long time but naive in scripture) These preachers can mess one up with their words and convictions.
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RE: There seems to be a movement Prosperity Gospel vs W... - 7/3/2009 5:57:03 PM
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supernova1976
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Thank you for the replies. I just know there is so much to learn about the HEART of God which is a place that only the Holy Spirit can help you experience. There is so much in scripture that he uses to tell us where to walk and what to say, why we should fear and tremble and when to have peace. I just believe the heart of God needs to be spoken- not only the wrath which is necessary- but the heart of God. One moment with the Holy Spirit within you can erase all fear and trembling even at the point of death.
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RE: There seems to be a movement Prosperity Gospel vs W... - 7/3/2009 8:17:36 PM
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jn1010lf
Posts: 493
Joined: 4/20/2005
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Hello supernova1976
I agree with to, to some extent, regarding Joel Osteen. He seems to be on the surface of genuine Christianity. As one writer said, "He is a combination of Christianity and pop psychology.
He seems to be what I would call Christian light. Most of his messages urge one to think the right thoughts and "bingo" there's all kinds of prosperity because ultra gracious God up in the sky will shower all kinds of goodies upon you.
Nothing is ever said about submitting to the will of God or being disciplined. And I've never heard him say anything about persecution for the sake of Christ. Frankly, I get tired of hearing him because once you've heard on sermon, you've heard them all.
I do see, as well, the other extreme of the damnation sermons. So, I've often liked to see a balance between the two: somewhere between sugar coating the gospel and preaching about hell. I think every preacher should cover every subject in the Bible.
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RE: There seems to be a movement Prosperity Gospel vs W... - 7/5/2009 3:39:29 AM
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supernova1976
Posts: 350
Joined: 9/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jn1010lf
Hello supernova1976
I agree with to, to some extent, regarding Joel Osteen. He seems to be on the surface of genuine Christianity. As one writer said, "He is a combination of Christianity and pop psychology.
He seems to be what I would call Christian light. Most of his messages urge one to think the right thoughts and "bingo" there's all kinds of prosperity because ultra gracious God up in the sky will shower all kinds of goodies upon you.
Nothing is ever said about submitting to the will of God or being disciplined. And I've never heard him say anything about persecution for the sake of Christ. Frankly, I get tired of hearing him because once you've heard on sermon, you've heard them all.
I do see, as well, the other extreme of the damnation sermons. So, I've often liked to see a balance between the two: somewhere between sugar coating the gospel and preaching about hell. I think every preacher should cover every subject in the Bible.
I agree. I wish it could be easier you know? Jesus return soon! please. Return soon.
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RE: There seems to be a movement Prosperity Gospel vs W... - 7/6/2009 8:14:10 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3792
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jn1010lf
Most of his messages urge one to think the right thoughts and "bingo" there's all kinds of prosperity because ultra gracious God up in the sky will shower all kinds of goodies upon you.
I do see, as well, the other extreme of the damnation sermons. So, I've often liked to see a balance between the two: somewhere between sugar coating the gospel and preaching about hell. I think every preacher should cover every subject in the Bible. It is interesting. I have been asked to give the Torah teaching the middle of August. The section includes the people standing on 2 mountains and reciting blessings for obedience from one and curses for disobediance from the other.
Deu 27:9 Moses and the priests the Levites spoke to all Israel, saying, “Keep silence, and listen, Israel: this day you have become the people of the LORD your God.
Deu 27:10 You shall therefore obey the voice of the LORD your God, and do his commandments and his statutes, which I command you this day.”
Deu 27:11 Moses commanded the people the same day, saying,
Deu 27:12 “These shall stand on Mount Gerizim to bless the people, when you have passed over the Jordan: Simeon, and Levi, and Judah, and Issachar, and Joseph, and Benjamin.
Deu 27:13 These shall stand on Mount Ebal for the curse: Reuben, Gad, and Asher, and Zebulun, Dan, and Naphtali.
Deu 27:14 The Levites shall answer, and tell all the men of Israel with a loud voice,
Deu 27:15 ‘Cursed is the man who makes an engraved or molten image, an abomination to the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and sets it up in secret.’ All the people shall answer and say, ‘Amen.’
With God it is always balance. We need to hear both as both are equally important.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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