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RE: Is It Really A Gift? - 7/5/2009 11:49:33 AM
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Focusing
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Has this person spoken with the ministry leader about this bill?
It seems rather odd to me. I'm wondering if the ministry has had issues in the past with people who pledge money (or whatever) and then not following through with their promise.
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RE: Is It Really A Gift? - 7/5/2009 11:55:34 AM
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ta_mosquito
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quote:
Is It Really A Gift?
No; at the point he/she made the promise, it became a promise.
quote:
What advice would you give this person?
Fulfill the promise. A promise is a promise, and must be fulfilled.
After that, don't promise what you're not willing to give.
Matthew 5:33 and following
Psalm 15:1 & 4
Ecclesiastes 5:4-6
< Message edited by ta_mosquito -- 7/5/2009 12:02:24 PM >
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RE: Is It Really A Gift? - 7/5/2009 1:27:46 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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A 'pledge' or a 'promise' to give could be called a 'verbal agreement' and is considered binding unless each party mutually breaks the agreement. Remember the old saying, "My word is my bond..?"
My wife and I are in a similar situation. With our new church building we have pledged to give about $6000. We were making about $100,000 a year ~~ sadly we're both out of work, and thinking of that pledge is a concern. But God is good and will be faithful just as we are to Him.
Matthew
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RE: Is It Really A Gift? - 7/5/2009 2:14:13 PM
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stellaluna
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Is it one of those things where they send you a pledge card or something so that you can keep a record? Sometimes that stuff is used for income tax purposes.
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RE: Is It Really A Gift? - 7/5/2009 6:25:30 PM
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Jhud
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See Ananias and Sapphira, Acts 5.
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RE: Is It Really A Gift? - 7/5/2009 6:28:54 PM
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iluvatar
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I learned in a class once that if you promise money to a charity, they are well within their rights to bill you if you fail to deliver. IIRC, it had something to do with their budgeting based upon promised donations. I forget the details, but it's not without precedent. I'm also of the opinion that you're better off not promising anything and just delivering what you can. If you need a mechanism to discipline yourself, then find something else.
-Dan.
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RE: Is It Really A Gift? - 7/5/2009 6:29:38 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
See Ananias and Sapphira, Acts 5.
That'll work!! 
Although with them, they were looking for pats on the back for doing a good work. They could have kept it all, what they did do though was say they sold their property for XX when they really sold it for XXX. That was the sin. They could have said they sold it for XXX and chosen to give XX, but, we know that didn't happen...
Matthew
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RE: Is It Really A Gift? - 7/5/2009 6:36:33 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
Is it one of those things where they send you a pledge card or something so that you can keep a record? Sometimes that stuff is used for income tax purposes.
We had pledge cards, and yes, it is a tax write-off. Regardless though, even a verbal agreement can be binding.
Bottomline with this kind of stuff though is to only 'promise' what you know you can. 'Promise' or 'pledge' a low amount, then as the Lord leads add more to it.
Matthew
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"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Is It Really A Gift? - 7/5/2009 6:41:43 PM
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heavenwardalways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MyCatSmokey2006
If someone makes a promise to give to a ministry, then that ministry turns around and BILLs the person for that gift, then is it really a gift? Personally, I feel that it's wrong for a ministry to do this. I know a person who's in this position and she feels that she's being obligated to pay to that ministry what is due, instead of giving cheerfully, without compulsion, like the Bible commands. .
What advice would you give this person?
In my humble opinion...
If your friend can not fullfill their promise, then they should go and talk to those that the promise was made too. And see if they can be relieved of the promise or postpone the fullfillment of that promise. I so do not believe this is an Acts 5 case. In my opinion thats harsh to say especially when you do not know the whole story. As for "billing" the person; in my opinion thats wrong. The ministry could send them reminders or follow-up with a few calls.
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RE: Is It Really A Gift? - 7/5/2009 7:22:23 PM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MyCatSmokey2006
If someone makes a promise to give to a ministry, then that ministry turns around and BILLs the person for that gift, then is it really a gift? Personally, I feel that it's wrong for a ministry to do this. I know a person who's in this position and she feels that she's being obligated to pay to that ministry what is due, instead of giving cheerfully, without compulsion, like the Bible commands. .
What advice would you give this person?
I would remind this person that a promise to pay anyone else would be something to be billed because a promise should be honored. It may be that what this person calls a bill is simply a reminder of a promise to give a certain amount. I see no reason to make a promise to give money to a ministry unless I'm prepared to follow through. If she's prepared to follow through, there shouldn't be a problem unless the ministry started charging interest. That would be uncool.
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RE: Is It Really A Gift? - 7/5/2009 7:24:33 PM
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zoebob
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I'm glad our church doesn't ask us to pledge. In Dec or so they ask us to fill out a card with a good faith estimate of our giving for the following year but it is not binding.
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RE: Is It Really A Gift? - 7/5/2009 7:25:33 PM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MyCatSmokey2006
But suppose the person's financial situation changed for the worse and they're no longer able to give what they had promised? What should they do then?
So this person may not be able to give the entire amount at once. What's to keep the person from fulfilling the promise made by giving smaller amounts over time? As long as the promise is fulfilled, I wouldn't have any issues with it.
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RE: Is It Really A Gift? - 7/7/2009 3:10:59 AM
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Aleric
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What I don't like is the televangelist that plays on peoples ignorance.
I don't in the least mind donating to some of them or making a pledge.
But when they themselves make the promise that God will give it back to them tenfold, they're essentially saying in their contract that the person giving will get it back ten times over.
Just once I would like to see them have to fulfill the contract they set out to receive. With out the attitude that if God didn't give it back tenfold the person giving must have done something wrong.
I would like to see them pay the amount themselves. They represent God don't they?
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RE: Is It Really A Gift? - 7/7/2009 8:05:37 AM
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armydude
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A pledge is a promise. Regardless of how or why it's made, it's still a promise. If you make a promise you should pay. If you can't pay, you shouldn't make the promise.
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RE: Is It Really A Gift? - 7/7/2009 9:04:24 AM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MyCatSmokey2006
If someone makes a promise to give to a ministry, then that ministry turns around and BILLs the person for that gift, then is it really a gift? Personally, I feel that it's wrong for a ministry to do this. I know a person who's in this position and she feels that she's being obligated to pay to that ministry what is due, instead of giving cheerfully, without compulsion, like the Bible commands. .
What advice would you give this person?
The whole pledge thingy always brings problems. It is a promise and should be paid, and some Churches use the pledges to obtain financing, etc.
If this person does not wish to keep the pledge then they should put it in writing and notify the Church, so they can correct thier records accordingly.
I avoid these problems by not doing the whole pledge thingy. No pledges, no promises to pay, no post dated checks; it eliminates a lot of potential problems.
If we decide to build something, we pay for it up front; or do not build it.
I feel very strongly about the "Cheerful giver" part mentioned in the OP and about not being under compulsion to give. We do not pass the offering plate at all, we only have a small box on the back wall that says "Offering" on it.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Is It Really A Gift? - 7/7/2009 10:33:16 AM
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ta_mosquito
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quote:
I feel very strongly about the "Cheerful giver" part mentioned in the OP and about not being under compulsion to give.
I've been mulling over this part of the OP. Thanks for bringing it up again, RC.
(All instances of "you" in the following paragraph are general and not directed at anyone in particular.)
Yep, the verse says to give cheerfully, not under compulsion. When making a promise/pledge, YOU are putting YOURSELF under compulsion. You could say that the church is trying to extract the promise from you also, so they're trying to put you under compulsion, but you, as the giver, have the final yea/nay on whether you're going to make the promise/pledge. So, in a way, when you make such a giving promise, you're putting yourself under compulsion and violating that verse's spirit.
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RE: Is It Really A Gift? - 7/7/2009 10:48:39 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
quote:
I feel very strongly about the "Cheerful giver" part mentioned in the OP and about not being under compulsion to give.
I've been mulling over this part of the OP. Thanks for bringing it up again, RC.
(All instances of "you" in the following paragraph are general and not directed at anyone in particular.)
Yep, the verse says to give cheerfully, not under compulsion. When making a promise/pledge, YOU are putting YOURSELF under compulsion. You could say that the church is trying to extract the promise from you also, so they're trying to put you under compulsion, but you, as the giver, have the final yea/nay on whether you're going to make the promise/pledge. So, in a way, when you make such a giving promise, you're putting yourself under compulsion and violating that verse's spirit.
I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment ta_mosquito.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is It Really A Gift? - 7/7/2009 4:11:26 PM
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kingdom1111
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quote:
We do not pass the offering plate at all, we only have a small box on the back wall that says "Offering" on it.
Amen!!
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RE: Is It Really A Gift? - 7/7/2009 7:58:11 PM
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armydude
Posts: 12879
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
Yep, the verse says to give cheerfully, not under compulsion. When making a promise/pledge, YOU are putting YOURSELF under compulsion. You could say that the church is trying to extract the promise from you also, so they're trying to put you under compulsion, but you, as the giver, have the final yea/nay on whether you're going to make the promise/pledge. So, in a way, when you make such a giving promise, you're putting yourself under compulsion and violating that verse's spirit.
Agreed, wholeheartedly.
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