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RE: Is A Preemptive War Biblical? - 7/6/2009 3:06:03 PM
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WesP
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I would say so. The OT provides many examples of this by order of God Himself. I would certainly think that the motives behind the war would determine whether is was a righteous act.
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RE: Is A Preemptive War Biblical? - 7/6/2009 4:13:06 PM
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ManimalX
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If a government's responsibility is the safety and well being of its citizens, then a preemptive strike based upon good information against a viable threat against said safety is the responsible thing for a government to do.
As usual, the "rightness" of any action is often dictated by context and motive, as WesP mentioned.
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"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Is A Preemptive War Biblical? - 7/6/2009 4:27:39 PM
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drmark
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I'm not sure I fully understand the question. Are you asking for examples of "preemptive war" from Biblical history or if God directed such kind of wars be fought? Or do you wish to discuss Just War theory in a more generalized manner? Or maybe something altogether different?
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RE: Is A Preemptive War Biblical? - 7/6/2009 10:20:40 PM
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solomonsprayer
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
I'm not sure I fully understand the question. Are you asking for examples of "preemptive war" from Biblical history or if God directed such kind of wars be fought? Or do you wish to discuss Just War theory in a more generalized manner? Or maybe something altogether different?
I was thinking primarily of what has been labeled a preemptive war by President Bush ("Dubya"), when he invaded Iraq. People said he was morally wrong to engage in a preemptive strike. Many felt we needed more diplomacy and a defensive posture rather than a preemptive strike mentality, not to mention the questioning of intelligence on the facts in Iraq as they related to WMDs...
Was the U.S. morally justified to strike first in that scenario? What that accurately labeled a preemptive war?
What are the logical, moral, and Biblical justifications for carrying out such a strike?
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RE: Is A Preemptive War Biblical? - 7/7/2009 1:21:00 AM
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dbark
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I'm guessing by asking "is it biblical?" you are also asking "is it moral?". It's obviously a very contentious issue, though moreso in the U.S. than in other places in the world where people generally tend to answer no, it isn't moral. Violence, to me, should be an extreme last resort - if even then.
As the great Martin Luther King said while accepting the Nobel peace prize - "Nonviolence is the answer to the crucial political and moral question of our time - the need for man to overcome oppression and violence without resorting to violence and oppression. Civilization and violence are antithetical concepts."
I tend to think that way as well - that violence and civilization and love are antithetical. Therefore my belief is that preemptive attacks are not moral or biblical.
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"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: Is A Preemptive War Biblical? - 7/7/2009 1:30:01 AM
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dbark
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From that same speech of MLK Jr's
quote:
I refuse to accept the cynical notion that nation after nation must spiral down a militaristic stairway into the hell of thermonuclear destruction. I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word in reality. This is why right temporarily defeated is stronger than evil triumphant.
...
I believe that what self-centered men have torn down men other-centered can build up. I still believe that one day mankind will bow before the altars of God and be crowned triumphant over war and bloodshed, and nonviolent redemptive good will proclaim the rule of the land. "And the lion and the lamb shall lie down together and every man shall sit under his own vine and fig tree and none shall be afraid." I still believe that We Shall overcome!
Peace and love in Christ.
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: Is A Preemptive War Biblical? - 7/7/2009 1:48:55 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Therefore my belief is that preemptive attacks are not moral or biblical.
I have to agree. I'm sure the 1st century Christians had the numbers to mount a revolution and overthrow the evil Roman government, but they didn't. And, this may just be me, but dying by the sword seems like a silly thing to walk into willingly.
So yeah, I would say it's not biblical.
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"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Is A Preemptive War Biblical? - 7/7/2009 1:52:00 PM
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WesP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Therefore my belief is that preemptive attacks are not moral or biblical.
I have to agree. I'm sure the 1st century Christians had the numbers to mount a revolution and overthrow the evil Roman government, but they didn't. And, this may just be me, but dying by the sword seems like a silly thing to walk into willingly.
So yeah, I would say it's not biblical.
Even though there are examples of this happening in the bible itself?
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Wes
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RE: Is A Preemptive War Biblical? - 7/7/2009 2:24:04 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Even though there are examples of this happening in the bible itself?
Where does it happen in the New Testament?
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"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Is A Preemptive War Biblical? - 7/7/2009 2:27:46 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Where does it happen in the New Testament? That's hardly fair! The NT relates the history of Jesus and the Apostles over 50 years maximum. Why should an unusual occurence of preemptive warfare likely be found therein?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is A Preemptive War Biblical? - 7/7/2009 2:37:20 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
That's hardly fair! The NT relates the history of Jesus and the Apostles over 50 years maximum. Why should an unusual occurence of preemptive warfare likely be found therein?
All right, where in the New Testament is the principle of war - of any kind - taught?
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Is A Preemptive War Biblical? - 7/7/2009 2:46:19 PM
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WesP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
That's hardly fair! The NT relates the history of Jesus and the Apostles over 50 years maximum. Why should an unusual occurence of preemptive warfare likely be found therein?
All right, where in the New Testament is the principle of war - of any kind - taught?
Where in the bible does it say that God has changed? He ordered preemptive wars Himself.
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Peace,
Wes
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RE: Is A Preemptive War Biblical? - 7/7/2009 3:29:06 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Where in the bible does it say that God has changed? He ordered preemptive wars Himself.
So how long has it been since you celebrated a Sabbath year?
How is it possible to reconcile war with loving one's neighbor and Jesus' statements about those who live by the sword shall die by the sword?
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Is A Preemptive War Biblical? - 7/7/2009 3:32:28 PM
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WesP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Where in the bible does it say that God has changed? He ordered preemptive wars Himself.
So how long has it been since you celebrated a Sabbath year?
How is it possible to reconcile war with loving one's neighbor and Jesus' statements about those who live by the sword shall die by the sword?
So you believe we should have no military. Indeed, you believe that it is wrong for the US to have been founded. You feel that the military is for those who live by the sword. You believe that police should never hurt another person even in defense of life. Etc., etc., ......
Interesting.
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Wes
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RE: Is A Preemptive War Biblical? - 7/7/2009 3:35:58 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
So you believe we should have no military.
Did I say that?
quote:
Indeed, you believe that it is wrong for the US to have been founded.
Yes, but for a different reason than the fact that it led to a war.
quote:
You feel that the military is for those who live by the sword.
Those in combat, yes.
quote:
You believe that police should never hurt another person even in defense of life. Etc., etc., ......
Did I say that?
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Is A Preemptive War Biblical? - 7/7/2009 3:43:40 PM
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WesP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
So you believe we should have no military.
Did I say that?
quote:
Indeed, you believe that it is wrong for the US to have been founded.
Yes, but for a different reason than the fact that it led to a war.
quote:
You feel that the military is for those who live by the sword.
Those in combat, yes.
quote:
You believe that police should never hurt another person even in defense of life. Etc., etc., ......
Did I say that?
For those things you disagree with, please, share with me what difference there is regarding living by the sword as you described it. Thank you.
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Peace,
Wes
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RE: Is A Preemptive War Biblical? - 7/7/2009 4:16:45 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
For those things you disagree with, please, share with me what difference there is regarding living by the sword as you described it.
I have no problem with my secular government (because despite what certain radio and TV personalities would have us believe, we are not a Christian nation) wielding to sword - assuming they wield it well. I believe, however, that it is against the teachings and example of Christ for a Christian to wield the sword.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Is A Preemptive War Biblical? - 7/7/2009 4:29:48 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Where in the bible does it say that God has changed? He ordered preemptive wars Himself.
So how long has it been since you celebrated a Sabbath year?
How is it possible to reconcile war with loving one's neighbor and Jesus' statements about those who live by the sword shall die by the sword?
You might want to ask some of the survivers of the nazi concentration camps, the victims of Saddam's army in Kuwait, or the women of Afganistan.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 7/7/2009 5:17:52 PM >
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Is A Preemptive War Biblical? - 7/7/2009 4:56:16 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
You might want to ask some of the survivers of the nazi concentration camps, the victims of in Kuwait, or the women of Afganistan.
Given the opportunity, do you think Jesus would put a bullet in the head of Osama bin Laden?
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Is A Preemptive War Biblical? - 7/7/2009 5:25:20 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
You might want to ask some of the survivers of the nazi concentration camps, the victims of in Kuwait, or the women of Afganistan.
Given the opportunity, do you think Jesus would put a bullet in the head of Osama bin Laden?
Rev. 14:14-20 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man" with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested. Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, "Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth's vine, because its grapes are ripe." The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath. They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia."
Does this answer your question?
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Is A Preemptive War Biblical? - 7/7/2009 5:30:46 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Does this answer your question?
Nope, because we aren't in the events described in Revelation. When the end comes, the time for possible repentance is passed and the time for judgment has come.
So, if Jesus were physically present on earth today, with a gun, in the same room as bin Laden, do you think He would put a bullet in his head?
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Is A Preemptive War Biblical? - 7/7/2009 6:13:20 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Does this answer your question?
Nope, because we aren't in the events described in Revelation. When the end comes, the time for possible repentance is passed and the time for judgment has come.
So, if Jesus were physically present on earth today, with a gun, in the same room as bin Laden, do you think He would put a bullet in his head?
Since, you insist we speak of the present circumstances, your imagary mistates the situation. I believe that Adonai Yeshua guided the bullet through Saddam's head or whatever impliment through whatever body part. If Adonai Yeshua were to appear to Osama bin Laden, I believe, it would be to give him one final opportunity as He did with Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar. Nebuchadnezzar humbled himself and I believe it was a man who slew Belshazzar. I could be wrong regarding the latter, but I think I have my secular history correct here.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Is A Preemptive War Biblical? - 7/7/2009 6:21:03 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
I believe that Adonai Yeshua guided the bullet through Saddam's head or whatever impliment through whatever body part.
Actually, it was a rope around the neck. Now, how do you reconcile that with the command to love our neighbor?
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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