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In which case we must also apply it to business arrangements, friendships, neighbours etc. In fact if we take it to its natural conclusion Christians should be completely isolated from non-Christians in every sphere of life, therefore unable to reach the lost with the good news!

Apart from marriage, does that attitude reflect how Jesus went about His business whilst here on earth, me thinks not!!

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ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane

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ORIGINAL: TheTartanTammy

Good response, I agree. However, as we know Christians do marry non-Christians, Christians do divorce, Christians don't always obey every aspect of God's will for their lives, Christians have been given free will...do any of these facts put them beyond God's grace?

Thanks.

I'm not sure what you mean about them being beyond God's grace. The truthfulness of the command does not change because of either the inability of some to keep it or the choice of those not to.

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My simple approach to this matter, knowing the sad fact of sin in my own life, is to extend grace, trying not to judge, but after appropriate counselling from God's word to allow a Christian to take responsibility for his/her life.

It is one thing to show a brother or sister, in love, how their attitude/behavior does not fall in line with scripture. It is quite another to take an active role in helping them both break a biblical command and give the illusion that what they do is OK with God. It would also make little sense if we told them what they were doing (or going to do) did not please God, but went along with them after telling them so.

And whether or not we have sin in our own life does not change the biblical mandate or our responsibility to it. What it should so is help up to understand that we suffer the same human frailties as everyone else. We should also be an example of how God'd strength helps us, in spite of those frailties, stand strong on the word.

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I would rather after all is said and done, that a Christian be married under God's word than go off to a secular non-Christian wedding celebrant, and in doing so possibly also go away from the Lord, and the Lord's people.

But knowingly marrying an unbeliever is neither being married under or by God's word. To conduct such a ceremony is to aid in a sham. All the scripture in the world can be recited and it changes nothing - unless the unbeliever repents and is saved at their own wedding (which, BTW, would be awesome).

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I appreciate that in your culture that this may not be acceptable, however the subject matter here is a secondary issue, as is baptism and so many others!! How many Christian women for example do not wear a hat to church, despite God's word saying they should? How many born again believers have not been baptised, despite the Lord's command?

But this has nothing to do with culture as did either wearing a head covering or women wearing wigs. There's nothing in the text that would show, lead, or hint that this specific instruction was to a certain group but the broader principle applies to all.

And whether or not a person consents to Baptism or not has no bearing on the biblical command. It is a slippery and dangerous slope we face if we can stop living by biblical commands based on whether or not other people keep other unrelated biblical commands. Humans could ignore and rebel against every single thing in the Bible (which they do) and it still would not change the truthfulness and authority of the command.

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Sorry, if you first read bro-Shane's post and then my response to it you will see that I agree with his interpretation of the passage. However, I then go on to expand on the reality of how some Christians live today in relation to this and other matters which are equally biblical. Hope this gives you the answer you seek.

And herein lies the problem. There is no equally biblical command in this area. We are told not to be yoked with unbelievers, period. The only exception given is when a person becomes a believer when a spouse does not. The reality of some Christians does not change anything.

What you are saying is that God and the applicability of His word should change based on how we (the same fallen creation He came to save and redeem) decide to live our lives. If this is the case, then there is no absolute morality. If there is no absolute morality there is no God and we are all wasting our time. This is the only logical outcome, there is no other.

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ORIGINAL: buckifn

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In which case we must also apply it to business arrangements, friendships, neighbours etc. In fact if we take it to its natural conclusion Christians should be completely isolated from non-Christians in every sphere of life, therefore unable to reach the lost with the good news!

Apart from marriage, does that attitude reflect how Jesus went about His business whilst here on earth, me thinks not!!

Yes, that must apply to all those things you mentioned, AND MORE.

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ORIGINAL: TheTartanTammy

Thank you for your gracious and comprehensive response. What I am trying to point out in reality is the danger of pointing the finger, when there are 3 pointing back at us!

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You are right in what you say, however my concern in all of this is a lack of grace. A lack of grace by those dogmatically ready to condemn others without the ability to live out all of God's commands in their own lives.

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How many women ignore, for example, the command to wear a head covering, yet happily condemn others for not doing this or that in line with God's revealed will?

How many men have long hair in churches, which again biblically is wrong, yet happily condemn others for not doing this or that?

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The point that I am trying to make (albeit in a laboured fashion) is that we are all capable of not obeying God's word, yet what does Jesus say about the danger of judging?

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I have seen too many pastors condemning others from the pulpit for a variety of reasons, yet being completely blind to their own faults, how many more Christians fall into the same category?

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It is sadly easier in the Christian life to look to see how others are walking with the Lord, without checking our own walk

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No, we shouldn't collude with others to break God's commands, but neither are we as sinners saved by grace in a position to condemn them either!! If we do, then we may be guilty of a bigger sin, pushing them away from the Lord and His church.

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I believe firmly that pastors have a duty to explain God's word, all Christians have a responsibility to what they do with what has been explained to them. If after careful explanation of God's word, someone decides to go the opposite way to God's revealed will, then the responsibility lies with the individual, not with the pastor.

Jesus said feed my sheep, He didn't say that we are to force feed them

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ORIGINAL: TheTartanTammy

bro_Shane, it is a real pleasure to debate with you, unilke other encounters I have had on these boards. The gracious way that you have dealt with me has now given me food for thought! God bless you.

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So, in reality if we really want to follow through on this we must examine what influence for example the media has on us like TV, cinema etc. Because if I hear you right, then an awful lot of Christians, me included, are not taking this command seriously enough when we consider the influence that the world in all of its various ways has on the average Christian?!

When we stop to think about it, it really does go way beyond marriage, when we consider how yoked we are to multimedia, advertising, non-Christian friendships, associations with work mates, neighbours, unbelieving family members...etc

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ORIGINAL: TheTartanTammy
Thank you for your gracious and comprehensive response. What I am trying to point out in reality is the danger of pointing the finger, when there are 3 pointing back at us!

You are right in what you say, however my concern in all of this is a lack of grace. A lack of grace by those dogmatically ready to condemn others without the ability to live out all of God's commands in their own lives.

How many women ignore, for example, the command to wear a head covering, yet happily condemn others for not doing this or that in line with God's revealed will?

How many men have long hair in churches, which again biblically is wrong, yet happily condemn others for not doing this or that?

The point that I am trying to make (albeit in a laboured fashion) is that we are all capable of not obeying God's word, yet what does Jesus say about the danger of judging?

I have seen too many pastors condemning others from the pulpit for a variety of reasons, yet being completely blind to their own faults, how many more Christians fall into the same category?

It is sadly easier in the Christian life to look to see how others are walking with the Lord, without checking our own walk.

No, we shouldn't collude with others to break God's commands, but neither are we as sinners saved by grace in a position to condemn them either!! If we do, then we may be guilty of a bigger sin, pushing them away from the Lord and His church.

I believe firmly that pastors have a duty to explain God's word, all Christians have a responsibility to what they do with what has been explained to them. If after careful explanation of God's word, someone decides to go the opposite way to God's revealed will, then the responsibility lies with the individual, not with the pastor.

Jesus said feed my sheep, He didn't say that we are to force feed them.

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ORIGINAL: TMeeks

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ORIGINAL: TheTartanTammy
Thank you for your gracious and comprehensive response. What I am trying to point out in reality is the danger of pointing the finger, when there are 3 pointing back at us!

You are right in what you say, however my concern in all of this is a lack of grace. A lack of grace by those dogmatically ready to condemn others without the ability to live out all of God's commands in their own lives.

How many women ignore, for example, the command to wear a head covering, yet happily condemn others for not doing this or that in line with God's revealed will?

How many men have long hair in churches, which again biblically is wrong, yet happily condemn others for not doing this or that?

The point that I am trying to make (albeit in a laboured fashion) is that we are all capable of not obeying God's word, yet what does Jesus say about the danger of judging?

I have seen too many pastors condemning others from the pulpit for a variety of reasons, yet being completely blind to their own faults, how many more Christians fall into the same category?

It is sadly easier in the Christian life to look to see how others are walking with the Lord, without checking our own walk.

No, we shouldn't collude with others to break God's commands, but neither are we as sinners saved by grace in a position to condemn them either!! If we do, then we may be guilty of a bigger sin, pushing them away from the Lord and His church.

I believe firmly that pastors have a duty to explain God's word, all Christians have a responsibility to what they do with what has been explained to them. If after careful explanation of God's word, someone decides to go the opposite way to God's revealed will, then the responsibility lies with the individual, not with the pastor.

Jesus said feed my sheep, He didn't say that we are to force feed them.

You get a hearty AMEN from me on the observation that we are woefully selective in following the clear words of the Scriptures in far too many areas. One, for instance, at least in this country, is the provision in the Old Testament that a person cannot be put to death for murder unless there were actual witnesses. Most Christians support the death penalty on the fact that God provided for the death penalty in Scripture. But, they fail to take the next step, ALSO in the Scriptures, to ensure that a person is not put to death wrongly.

You and I have both seen this in the lives of pastors and missionaries and it never Glorifies God to be so selective in what we will or will not believe. But, it is even LESS Glorifying to God to interact gracelessly to others with whom we must deal. Especially as church leaders.

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ORIGINAL: buckifn

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So, in reality if we really want to follow through on this we must examine what influence for example the media has on us like TV, cinema etc. Because if I hear you right, then an awful lot of Christians, me included, are not taking this command seriously enough when we consider the influence that the world in all of its various ways has on the average Christian?!

When we stop to think about it, it really does go way beyond marriage, when we consider how yoked we are to multimedia, advertising, non-Christian friendships, associations with work mates, neighbours, unbelieving family members...etc

ABSOLUTELY. I only wish I had been taught this many years ago. We truly are imbedded in this world and it's fashions far more than we realize. I say that not in condemnation, because I would be condemning myself first, but in acknowledgement that this is part of the battle we must wage daily...spirit against flesh.

It's one of many things that keeps me repenting. I don't think it is about judging others. I'm not sure why it comes across that way so easily in the forums sometimes.

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ORIGINAL: agapeflight

This one will upset someone but here goes. If it is possible for people to go to a justice of the peace and get married then why is marriage considered so sacrosanct? Are those not real marriages if not performed by a minister or priest? Paul said we ought not to be unequally yoked, that covers all contracts including employment (as so many of us learned the hard way.) But does anything in the Bible give power over marriage specifically to the volition of an overseeing clergymember? I d0o not know of any, Paul simply said 'the marriage bed is honarable among all.' and 'I wish you would remain as I am, since those who marry will have trouble in the flesh.' That marriage is God's will for the family is upheld in Scripture, but that marriage itself, alike with burial, and baby dedications ought to be under the sole power of some type of priestly(pastoral) class does not seem to exist beyond church tradition.

Now I personally would not conduct a ceremony for two people unless they were both well grounded and mature in my own prayerful opinion, I want them to have the best chance at making past the 50% divorce rate that they can. I would counsel the believer strongly to consider very carefully the Biblical warnings and if they wanted to go through with it I would have to pass it to someone else.

Sadly I think some pastors peform these types of things as public relations not as sacrament.

to augment the point notice how Paul told the Corinthians that he was glad he had not baptized anyone in Corinth. It sounds like Paul did not take the sacraments as seriously as we might like to believe. So therefore as with so many things, I think there is probably a strong amount of liberty given to us all by grace in the matter of marriage.

A final aside, I know a local church where a pastor some years ago had a wave of marriages out of the singles group, like seven of them in a couple years. A few years later that same pastor moved on to a job at the district and was shortly thereafter busted for soliciting prostitution. Within years all of those couples save one were divorced.

It seems like his handiwork did not pass the fire test, so I caution my brothers to lay hands on no mand quickly, do not be participants in another man's sin.

God bless.

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This one will upset someone but here goes. If it is possible for people to go to a justice of the peace and get married then why is marriage considered so sacrosanct? Are those not real marriages if not performed by a minister or priest?

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ORIGINAL: zoebob

The poll is only about marriage because that's what I want to know about. I want to know if pastors are willing to help others in their sins. That's the big point here. It doesn't matter if you don't obey God's law X I'm only concerned about God's law Y. Just because someone doesn't keep law X doesn't mean they shouldn't keep Y. Also, most other sins that are being mentioned here (and some of them are things that most people would say are not specific for today in the way they are interpreted) are not things that a pastor helps people do. A pastor doesn't go out and take a woman's hats or cut her hair.

As for unequally yoked with unbelieverS there are many ways to do that. Some involve only one unbeliever, others include more but all in all there is generally more than 1 opportunity to be linked with an unbeliever. That would be like saying when scripture says "Don't exasperate your children" that if you only have 1 child it's ok to exasperate them. ETA: Or when the Bible says to "love your wives" it's not that the men should have more than one wife but that they are talking to a group that should love their wives as a group.

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ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito

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This one will upset someone but here goes. If it is possible for people to go to a justice of the peace and get married then why is marriage considered so sacrosanct? Are those not real marriages if not performed by a minister or priest?

Those marriages done in front of a JP are just as valid. However, will a minister willingly and freely unite a nonbeliever to a believer? That's the question at hand.

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ORIGINAL: zoebob

THe poll doesn't add up to100%

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ORIGINAL: zoebob

THe poll doesn't add up to100%

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ORIGINAL: zoebob

THe poll doesn't add up to100%