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How is this possible? - 7/10/2009 5:14:17 AM
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pabrain
Posts: 304
Joined: 12/19/2008
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It is written,
Deu 18:18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.
Deu 18:19 And it shall be [that] whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require [it] of him.
Jesus commenting on the above said,
Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own [authority]; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
He also said,
Jhn 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Jhn 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own [authority]; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
It is clear therefore that the people to whom He was speaking could both hear and see the Father, how in light of this can you explain?,
NIV - Jhn 5:37 - And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,
Thank you.
Edwin.
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RE: How is this possible? - 7/10/2009 6:39:08 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2566
Joined: 10/25/2005
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I am not sure exactly what you are asking, but it strikes me that the right answer is that the Son, through the power of the Spirit, is the only way humanity gets to interact with the Father without being utterly destroyed. In other words, you can't handle the full glory of Guy behind the curtain, so you either deal with Me (Jesus), or nobody.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: How is this possible? - 7/10/2009 8:40:51 AM
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WesP
Posts: 1440
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
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quote:
It is clear therefore that the people to whom He was speaking could both hear and see the Father, how in light of this can you explain?,
NIV - Jhn 5:37 - And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,
Edwin,
It would seem to me that Jesus, being a part of the Trinity, is displaying the sinless perfection of God. Had Jesus come in the full glory of God and not as a man, I do not believe that people would have been able to take it. I mean this in the context of ManimalX's post.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
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RE: How is this possible? - 7/10/2009 2:30:21 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2930
Joined: 11/8/2007
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I would agree Yeshua is talking in relative terms. This is similar to the timeswhen one's wife says, "You don't know me." The husband thinks, "What?" However, if he is wise he doesn't say that. Statements like this are heavily depndant on context. I would think this is an idomatic way of saying, "You need to pay closer attention."
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: How is this possible? - 7/10/2009 2:42:08 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Colossians 1:15 (KJV)
Seems like they were looking at the image of God, that's what it says.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: How is this possible? - 7/10/2009 2:45:09 PM
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laura...
Posts: 3284
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: NE Ohio
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quote:
It is clear therefore that the people to whom He was speaking could both hear and see the Father, how in light of this can you explain?,
NIV - Jhn 5:37 - And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,
Thank you.
Edwin.
It's generally problematic when you take a verse out of context especially cutting it off in the middle of a sentence.
John 5:37And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
Jesus is telling those he is speaking to that if they had ever heard the Father or seen his form in the scriptures that they so diligently studied then they would have recognized the Father in Him. Their refusal to recognize that Jesus was sent by the Father and that the Father and Jesus are one testifies that the God's word did not dwell in them.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: How is this possible? - 7/10/2009 10:06:54 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2234
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pabrain
It is written,
Deu 18:18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.
Deu 18:19 And it shall be [that] whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require [it] of him.
Jesus commenting on the above said,
Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own [authority]; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
He also said,
Jhn 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Jhn 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own [authority]; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
It is clear therefore that the people to whom He was speaking could both hear and see the Father, how in light of this can you explain?,
NIV - Jhn 5:37 - And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,
Thank you.
Edwin.
Greetings,
quote:
It is clear therefore that the people to whom He was speaking could both hear and see the Father,
Where does it say that??
God was speaking to Moses in verse 18 and in verse 19 it is speaking to us
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: How is this possible? - 7/11/2009 11:36:30 AM
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pabrain
Posts: 304
Joined: 12/19/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
It is clear therefore that the people to whom He was speaking could both hear and see the Father, how in light of this can you explain?,
NIV - Jhn 5:37 - And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,
Edwin,
It would seem to me that Jesus, being a part of the Trinity, is displaying the sinless perfection of God. Had Jesus come in the full glory of God and not as a man, I do not believe that people would have been able to take it. I mean this in the context of ManimalX's post.
quote:
Edwin,
It would seem to me that Jesus, being a part of the Trinity, is displaying the sinless perfection of God. Had Jesus come in the full glory of God and not as a man, I do not believe that people would have been able to take it. I mean this in the context of ManimalX's post.
Hi WesP.
Thank you for your informative post, it put me in mind of,
Jhn 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, [fn] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared [Him].
My understanding is that when Jesus said, "he who has seen me has seen the Father", He was not referring to psychical appearance, but conduct and behavior, in other words.
What you have seen me doing, and heard me saying, was not in fact me, but my Father who dwells within me doing His works, my body has enabled my Father to become articulate, but only as a result of my continually adopting towards my Father God an attitude of, "not my will but thine be done".
And that beloved is the only way in which we can do God's will.
Blessings.
Edwin Brain.
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RE: How is this possible? - 7/11/2009 11:54:16 AM
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pabrain
Posts: 304
Joined: 12/19/2008
Status: offline
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Hi LoyalGypsy.
You ask,
Where does it say that??
Answer: Below
Jhn 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Jhn 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own [authority]; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
Jhn 14:11 Believe Me that I [am] in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
Are you saying that what Jesus said in John 14 is not applicable to John 5?
When Jesus said, "he who has seen me has seen the Father", was He talking about all of His 3+ years of public ministry, or only the last week?
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RE: How is this possible? - 7/11/2009 6:31:37 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2234
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pabrain
Hi LoyalGypsy.
You ask,
Where does it say that??
Answer: Below
Jhn 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Jhn 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own [authority]; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
Jhn 14:11 Believe Me that I [am] in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
Are you saying that what Jesus said in John 14 is not applicable to John 5?
When Jesus said, "he who has seen me has seen the Father", was He talking about all of His 3+ years of public ministry, or only the last week?
Greetings pabrain
quote:
Are you saying that what Jesus said in John 14 is not applicable to John 5?
No... I guess I read it wrong....I thought you were referring to when God was speaking to Moses in Deut 18:18-19 ....when you mentioned ....It is clear therefore that the people to whom He was speaking could both hear and see the Father,
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: How is this possible? - 7/11/2009 7:27:08 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2234
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pabrain
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
It is clear therefore that the people to whom He was speaking could both hear and see the Father, how in light of this can you explain?,
NIV - Jhn 5:37 - And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,
Edwin,
It would seem to me that Jesus, being a part of the Trinity, is displaying the sinless perfection of God. Had Jesus come in the full glory of God and not as a man, I do not believe that people would have been able to take it. I mean this in the context of ManimalX's post.
quote:
Edwin,
It would seem to me that Jesus, being a part of the Trinity, is displaying the sinless perfection of God. Had Jesus come in the full glory of God and not as a man, I do not believe that people would have been able to take it. I mean this in the context of ManimalX's post.
Hi WesP.
Thank you for your informative post, it put me in mind of,
John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, [fn] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared [Him].
My understanding is that when Jesus said, "he who has seen me has seen the Father", He was not referring to psychical appearance, but conduct and behavior, in other words.
What you have seen me doing, and heard me saying, was not in fact me, but my Father who dwells within me doing His works, my body has enabled my Father to become articulate, but only as a result of my continually adopting towards my Father God an attitude of, "not my will but thine be done".
And that beloved is the only way in which we can do God's will.
Blessings.
Edwin Brain.
Greetings,
pa.. can I make a correction??
You were doing fine but lost it a bit here when you said...
And that beloved is the only way in which we can do God's will.
To be more consistent with what you were offering... the wording should have been...
...And that beloved is the only way in which God's will is done through us.
quote:
John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, [fn] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared [Him].
.....Its just a little correction of placing God in the first person.. Above us
....and the declaration Jesus mentioned above...rides the same thought... so to speak!
Otherwise... when we say things in this order....
in which we can do God's will...
That statement places us in the first person as doing the work…
So even though it seems harmless… it unknowingly mixes the train of thought
Therefore...
No one has seen God at any time....
The only begotten Son, =(The first)....who is in the bosom of the Father, =(The first)....He has declared Him ..First
“The words”….. that I speak to you …. “I do not speak…. on My own [authority];
= means speaking concerning himself in the first person… such as… we. Me. I =...
And that beloved is the only way in which “we” can do God's will.
SO when we get the words in the right order…
And that beloved is the only way in which God’s will (first person) is done through us.
But (IS WHEN)…. the Father (first person) who dwells in Me… does the works.
And that applies to just about everything that we think and speak…that is if we want to see God…
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they “shall see” God.
quote:
It would seem to me that Jesus, being a part of the Trinity, is displaying the sinless perfection of God
Basically what Jesus was teaching in John 1 and 14 and in other places is that we all need get our words in the right order to hear from God; which I guess could be looked as displaying the perfection of God
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: How is this possible? - 7/14/2009 11:17:23 AM
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pabrain
Posts: 304
Joined: 12/19/2008
Status: offline
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Hi LoyalGypsy.
Thank you for your post in which you say,
"Greetings,
pa.. can I make a correction??
You were doing fine but lost it a bit here when you said...
And that beloved is the only way in which we can do God's will.
To be more consistent with what you were offering... the wording should have been...
...And that beloved is the only way in which God's will is done through us".
Would you agree that it is God's will that all His children should adopt towards the Lord an attitude of, "not my will, but your will be done", and if we do this, would you say that we were doing God's will?
And would you also agree that the only way in which , "God's will is done through us", is if we first, "do God's will" ?
Every blessing.
Edwin.
< Message edited by pabrain -- 7/14/2009 4:29:26 PM >
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