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Toddler Discipline Help Needed - 7/13/2009 2:57:37 PM
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Tea-Tea
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From: Mr. Sippi
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I have a 19-month old daughter that is definitely strong willed. She has started kicking, biting, and throwing things. And temper tantrums are becoming the norm. We've tried spanking but it's not getting through to her. We're doing a time out chair but so many times she tenses her body and won't sit. It does seem to have an effect on her but we're still not sure it's working. When she throws a toy, we take it away until the next day (not sure how great that's working since she has so many toys LOL). She kicks horribly on the changing table and I'm unsure about what to do since we have to finish her diaper change before I can put her in the time out chair but I also need her to stop kicking. And what am I supposed to do about temper tantrums?
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~Tammy~
"If people can be taught to hate, they can be taught to love."
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RE: Toddler Discipline Help Needed - 7/13/2009 3:05:18 PM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tea-Tea
I have a 19-month old daughter that is definitely strong willed. She has started kicking, biting, and throwing things. And temper tantrums are becoming the norm. We've tried spanking but it's not getting through to her. We're doing a time out chair but so many times she tenses her body and won't sit.
Then forget the chair, and just have a time out place. It doesn't have to be a chair, and she doesn't have to sit, just stay where she is put.
For how long are you putting her in time out? And are you doing it the Supernanny way?
quote:
She kicks horribly on the changing table and I'm unsure about what to do since we have to finish her diaper change before I can put her in the time out chair but I also need her to stop kicking.
Could you just clarify? In this situation, what is the time out for? Is it for the kicking or for something else?
quote:
And what am I supposed to do about temper tantrums?
With my ds, I put him in time out till he was quiet. Otherwise, I ignored what he was doing and let him let it out. I didn't see them as temper tantrums but as "emotional overloads".
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RE: Toddler Discipline Help Needed - 7/13/2009 3:07:22 PM
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Sideways
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Do you have a room in your house that is safe but has no toys, nothing fun at all? Have that be a time out room, so you don't have to physically force her to sit. All tantrums must be done in that room, too. Let her scream her guts out, but removed from society. She can only be with her family again when she's calmed down, no matter what.
Spanking doesn't work for all children, in fact, some are made worse by it, more aggressive and defiant. That being said, I take it a hard swat to bare legs hasn't helped on the changing table?
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Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream. If you see a crocodile, don't forget to scream.
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RE: Toddler Discipline Help Needed - 7/13/2009 3:25:55 PM
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Tea-Tea
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Manda, I put her time out for 1 1/2 minutes. Not sure if it's the Nanny Jo way but I put her in the chair, tell her she's in time out for (whatever the offense is), and walk away. I completely ignore her for 1 1/2 minutes. Then I go get her, tell her she isn't allowed to (whatever the offense was) and explain again that's why she was in time out. I hug her, tell her I love her, and let her go play, etc.
Sorry I wasn't clear about the changing table deal...if she's on the changing table and kicking (she usually ends up kicking me), I need to come up with something to punish her for kicking but time out is so far after the fact. So not sure what to do.
So do you have to physically move him/her during a tantrum to the time out place?
Sideways, we do not have a room with nothing fun at all. We have a very small home that is quite cramped. So I'm hard pressed for a place to put her. I have a small corner I could use but it's in the main part of the house--where a lot of the action is. You're right--a firm swat on a bare leg has not helped on the changing table--I think it definitely makes her more mad and more determined to kick. A few times it has helped but mostly it doesn't.
Thanks for the responses so far!
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~Tammy~
"If people can be taught to hate, they can be taught to love."
spoken by Betsie ten Boom in The Hiding Place
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RE: Toddler Discipline Help Needed - 7/13/2009 3:43:45 PM
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3cappuccinosmom
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Do you win *every* battle of wills?
I wonder about "hugs"--occasionally I have had to sit down and physically restrain one of mine until he calmed down and was ready to listen. Not squeezing or hurting, of course, but holding him very firmly and not letting him break away. It is no fun at all but at times it was just what was needed.
We use all different methods, depending on the circumstance. What we are consistent about though is this: "You can carry on all you like, but you *will* do this (or not do this as the case may be), even if I have to put up with your fighting it for 3 hours". I do try to make sure that I only make it a battle of the wills if I'm willing to win the battle. The split second the child calms down and stops fighting, even if it is just to take a breath before screaming again, I jump in with a hug and a smile and "Oh, are you happy now!" It almost always works the first time, and even when it doesn't, I've never actually had something go one for hours on end.
ETA: at that age, for kicking, I have no problem with a good firm swat every time until she gets the message. I realize though that some would consider me an absolute monster for saying that.  Alternatively, you could hold her firmly until she stops fighting you.
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RE: Toddler Discipline Help Needed - 7/13/2009 3:50:01 PM
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Sideways
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If swatting for kicking at the changing table hasn't worked so far, I think holding is worth a try. If a swat just makes her madder and more determined to kick, you could end up spanking her so much that she'll get bruises or other damage.
_____________________________
Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream. If you see a crocodile, don't forget to scream.
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RE: Toddler Discipline Help Needed - 7/13/2009 4:08:43 PM
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manda59
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Well, I'd have smacked the leg that kicked me, together with a very stern "DON'T do that again!" plus a "the more you do that, the longer it will take". If that didn't work, I'd be firmly holding the legs and repeating "Don't kick, it hurts". I wouldn't use time out for kicking.
Have you tried sitting her on the potty at diaper changing time? I mean a plastic portable one. It could be that she is beginning to be ready and might behave better if she was sat on the potty for part of the diaper change.
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RE: Toddler Discipline Help Needed - 7/13/2009 4:14:22 PM
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bolt.
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An important trick with toddlers is to say what you want, then demonstrate it, firmly, until it sinks in.
What you want on the change table is for her to, "Be. Still." Before you put her up, you get to eye level and say, "Suzy, we are going to the change table and when we get there you need to -- Be. Still. Are you ready, OK. <up> And now -- Be. Still." As you say that, gently rest your forarms across her laying-down body to emphasise how all her limbs are flat to the table. Remove your arms and carry on cheefully as usual, pausing often to say, "Good girl. You are doing great at -- Being. Still."
As she begins a kick or flail, apply gentle-to-firm pressure on the moving parts and say, "Suzy -- Be. Still. This leg -- Be. Still." And continue to hold the offending limbs flat to the change table for as long as she wants to fight you for, all the while talking calmly and firmly about what you want, what you are showing her how to do. When she seems ready to be still, tell her, "OK now, ready to -- Be. Still. ? Here we go!" Lift your arms and carry on cheerfully.
If this goes on for a long time, and you are going to give up the lesson, stop telling her about being still, and just wrestle as needed to get through that change. Start again with good expectations next time.
Don't always wait until she does what you don't want to then reprimand and punish her (although that is important in many situations). Whenever you can, state the expectation in advance and persue it pro-actively. Decide what skills you want to teach her, not just the behaviours you want to get rid of.
A skill for tantrums might be deep breathing. I'm not sure what else.
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RE: Toddler Discipline Help Needed - 7/13/2009 4:25:58 PM
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laura...
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For regular tantrums try turning your back to her "shunning" her until she stops. As soon as she stops turn back and engage with her again.
When she starts kicking and fighting while changing her diaper, do a version of "shunning" that will still keep her safe on the table -- stand in a position where she can't kick you but you can still hold her in place, stop attempting to change the diaper and quietly tell her that you will finish when she stops kicking and that the sooner she stops the sooner it will be done. Then be absolutely quiet until she stops. Then proceed thanking her for her cooperation.
My oldest was very strong willed. Time out never worked for him. Putting him in time out became a huge battle that was far more abusive than spanking. Tantrums are a bid for attention. Not getting the desired attention can be effective in stopping them. It will take time though -- lots of time.
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This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Toddler Discipline Help Needed - 7/13/2009 9:00:38 PM
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Tea-Tea
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Wow...thanks for the wisdom! I'm feeling pretty stupid for not thinking of some of these things.
I have tried holding her legs down but it's usually when I've reached the point of being very frustrated so it makes her more mad. I'll try doing it more calmly next time and explain ahead of time what is expected. I'll also give the hug hold a try instead of time out.
Auben, she is still in her crib and has never tried to climb out. However, I am concerned about making it a punishment to go to her crib (unless I can tell she's tired and needs sleep)--won't she then think she's being punished everytime I put her in bed? Oh, and it just so happens that she hasn't figured out how to get out of the "time out chair" yet. But she does stand in it and I do not like that--too dangerous.
We had a battle on the changing table a little while ago. Afterwards she was really mad and acting out. I just told her it was bedtime and put her in bed. She's still awake but isn't fussing...kinda wondering if she just needed the quiet and the space.
Most of the problems I have are in the evening until bedtime. I may start feeding her earlier and putting her in bed earlier. That might help some. Also, she didn't get much of a nap today--will have to really make the effort to have her home at naptime and insist on a good nap for her.
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~Tammy~
"If people can be taught to hate, they can be taught to love."
spoken by Betsie ten Boom in The Hiding Place
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RE: Toddler Discipline Help Needed - 7/13/2009 9:19:07 PM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tea-Tea
However, I am concerned about making it a punishment to go to her crib (unless I can tell she's tired and needs sleep)--won't she then think she's being punished everytime I put her in bed?
I did not use the cot (crib), or their rooms, for punishment for that very reason.
quote:
Oh, and it just so happens that she hasn't figured out how to get out of the "time out chair" yet. But she does stand in it and I do not like that--too dangerous.
I still say that it doesn't have to involve a chair - just a place, a corner. And they don't have to sit, but they do have to stay there. So, if they move away from that area, you move them back - no matter how many times it takes, they will learn eventually if you are consistent and persistent.
quote:
Most of the problems I have are in the evening until bedtime. I may start feeding her earlier and putting her in bed earlier. That might help some.
Now you've said this, it changes everything for me. Maybe there's a way of changing things round in order to avoid her getting upset before bedtime. I certainly would not want to have used spankings or timeouts in the build up to bedtime. What time does she have her evening meal? What happens in your home between her evening meal and bedtime? (ie what else is going on?)
What time does she go to bed, and what does her bedtime routine consist of?
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RE: Toddler Discipline Help Needed - 7/13/2009 9:28:13 PM
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cynthia
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My youngest is a strong willed child. I cannot even imagine using a changing table with him. I would sit on the floor with my leg across him and change his diaper that way. However, that didn't teach him anything it was a way for me to deal with it. It think it's better to work at changing her behavior and attitude than to simply find a way around it like I did.
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RE: Toddler Discipline Help Needed - 7/13/2009 11:36:51 PM
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Auben
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quote:
Auben, she is still in her crib and has never tried to climb out. However, I am concerned about making it a punishment to go to her crib (unless I can tell she's tired and needs sleep)--won't she then think she's being punished everytime I put her in bed?
It depends on how she feels about the crib and how often she's naughty.
I prefer a playpen myself, but there have been times when I did not have one and a crib worked in a pinch. The child did not fear the crib though and we called it 'quiet time' not time out. As in, 'you're not listening to Mommy, maybe you need some quiet time to think about this.'
Again, it depends on the child. I couldn't get away with that with my strong-willed oldest because he hated sleeping (and sitting) but I could with my second son. He actually preferred the crib to a time out chair. He liked to lay down.
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RE: Toddler Discipline Help Needed - 7/13/2009 11:48:08 PM
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cynthia
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What Auben is saying makes sense. In the scenario she is describing it's really not "time out." It is not punative, but a way to help the child calm down and improve her attitude. You could try it and see if it helps. Not all children react the same, so sometimes you have to try different things until you find what works.
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RE: Toddler Discipline Help Needed - 7/14/2009 10:22:04 AM
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Tea-Tea
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Bedtime itself is absolutely fine. We tell her about 5 or 10 minutes ahead of time that it's night-night time. When it's bedtime, we giver her a nap-nap (burp rag that is like a security blanket), a stuffed animal or doll, and her music box. We kiss her, tell her it's night night time and place her in bed. If she cries (which she doesn't always do), it's only for a few minutes (less than 5).
She starts melting down around 4:00 or 4:30 in the afternoon. We were eating around 6:30 due to my hubby's schedule and she goes down for bed between 8 and 8:30. I fed her last night about 5:30 and she went to bed at 7:30 and was asleep by 7:55. I will try doing that today.
She has had a bad melt down this morning and I cannot figure out why. I've tried a time-out corner and I've tried quiet time in her bed. The time-out corner worked better. And today she has decided that she hates her booster seat she eats in. Not sure why!
Also, what about tantrums in public? The other day she fell out in the shoe store. She was in desperate need of some shoes so since we were there for shoes, I just tried shoes on her with her screaming. We bought the shoes and left. Later in the week we went out for lunch and she fell out there because she didn't want to sit down. I grabbed up our lunch and we left. Just not sure what is the appropriate response!
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~Tammy~
"If people can be taught to hate, they can be taught to love."
spoken by Betsie ten Boom in The Hiding Place
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RE: Toddler Discipline Help Needed - 7/14/2009 10:46:08 AM
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Tea-Tea
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I feel like such a bad Mama! I think I figured out her melt down this morning. I remembered that she's teething so I gave her some teething tablets and she's the sweetest thing now! Just thought I'd let you all know.
_____________________________
~Tammy~
"If people can be taught to hate, they can be taught to love."
spoken by Betsie ten Boom in The Hiding Place
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RE: Toddler Discipline Help Needed - 7/14/2009 10:52:39 AM
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cynthia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tea-Tea
I feel like such a bad Mama! I think I figured out her melt down this morning. I remembered that she's teething so I gave her some teething tablets and she's the sweetest thing now! Just thought I'd let you all know.
That doesn't make you a bad mother. You learned from it. If you do the guilt, it will hinder you. You are obviously a concerned, thoughtful mother.
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RE: Toddler Discipline Help Needed - 7/14/2009 10:58:19 AM
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bolt.
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With the 4:30 (before supper) usual melt down, and the morning melt down (before breakfast?), you might want to start thinking about the connection between food and mood. There is a blood sugar response in all of us (it's NOT diabetic) and even as an adult I have trouble managing my 4:30pm hungry-grumpy irritable mood.
If this seems plausible to you, I'd begin the day with a small food or drink that I know she likes enough to eat right up right away -- and give it to her very-first-thing (before you or the day make any demands on her) as kind of an "appetizer" for breakfast. Then I'd think about a substantial toddler meal-snack at about 3:30 in the day.
As for the public tantrumming, both responses are fine, depending on how many people are about, how bad you need the item, if you have time to settle in the car then go back, if you are getting dirty looks or sympathetic ones, how loud she is being, how hard the floor is etc. etc.
Better than knowing how to deal with it is knowing how to prevent or avoid it. Firstly, do a thought-through assessment on how near the edge your girl is. If she's short on sleep, and probably hungry -- you're asking for it, and if you really must stop, you'd best hurry -- and also be extra engaging etc. with her in the store, since you are asking her to do a hard thing.
If possible bring or buy her a small snack to occupy her and moderate her mood, if there is reason for you to suspect she's on-edge. Myself, I keep boxes of raisins in the van for just such cases. It's work to dig them out, and their a good hit of sugar without being totally unhealthy. If you have nothing on you, don't be afraid to pick up a package of something and open it (as long as you pay for it and take the rest home).
Secondly, of course, I'm going to say, ask for what you want. Define for your toddler, "This is home." / "This is outside." / "This is public." Make that a silly game: "Are we at home? Noo-oo! We're at wal mart this is PUBLIC!!" Then begin to tell-and-demonstrate what you plan to enforce in public.
I'd suggest "Quietly." to be the best initial command for public life. Stop in the door of the shop while you are still outside, and draw her attention to the transition, "See, Suzy: see the door. We are going into public. In public we talk -- Quietly. You can do that, right Suzy? What a good girl you are. I'm not going to hear any screaming or fussing, because you are going to talk -- Quietly."
I also think a gesture is a good idea for this one, so that she can do the gesture too, and it will help focus her self control. My thought is cupping hands around your mouth like you are going to whisper in somebody's ear. Then, if she begins to get edgy, you can remind her, "Suzy, try for -- Quietly. Show me -- Quietly." Then you could both do the gesture, since the gesture is more concrete than her actual volume level.
Soon she will clue in to the cues of what's public, and that she has to behave differently there, and you will find the need to be so dead obvious about it will fade away, while the good behaviour will remain.
_____________________________
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RE: Toddler Discipline Help Needed - 7/14/2009 12:00:46 PM
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Hazel2
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Tammy, I have a 21 month old strong minded little girl. She is such a CHALLENGE. I have learned to avoid certain kinds of confrontation with her because she WON'T BACK DOWN. I think I could spank her all day long and she would continue on her little way out of spite. Here is how I am surviving ...
- I have few rules that I enforce with her ... toys and little girls do not belong on tables, no pushing of furniture, no hitting, whoever has a toy first may play with it until they are done at which time someone else may play with it, etc.
- I am very very consistent with these few rules. When she breaks them, I say for example "Oh No! Little girls don't belong on tables!" She normally responds with compliance.
- I ratchet up the consequences when she doesn't respond ... "Ava, you get down or I am going to give you a reminder" (spank). By now, 95% of the time, she has stopped. If not, I give her the reminder and she cries ... sometimes she will STILL refuse to get down. When this happens, I switch to time out in the mud room, a room with a door that she cannot open ... it has a french door so I can still see her. I tell her if she doesn't get down immediately, she will be put into the mudroom for a time out.
- I tell her up front that she may make lots of noise in the mudroom, that it is ok with me but she isn't coming out until she calms down. I will periodically open the door to remind her that only when she quiets down will she be let out.
It is exhausting! Her sister was nothing like this! I have modified my approach to one that works for her crazy strong little personality. I see her strength as just that ... it will take her far in life, her refusal to give in to pressure but my job is still to teach her to respect and obey my authority. My husband is not so sure : ). My sister went through a difficult period with her daughter who didn't seem to be responding to any dicipline. They stuck it out and now Abby is the most charming, compliant little person! I use this as an example of why I must stick it out with Ava even when it seems like her entire day is just one dicipline episode after another.
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RE: Toddler Discipline Help Needed - 7/14/2009 1:05:21 PM
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laura...
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quote:
I must stick it out with Ava even when it seems like her entire day is just one dicipline episode after another.
My oldest had just one discipline episode after another from age 16 months through age 4.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Toddler Discipline Help Needed - 7/14/2009 3:19:37 PM
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Tea-Tea
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Thanks for the responses.
Hazel, thank you for your personal testimony--makes me feel like I'm not alone! Also makes me feel like I can make it!
Josie normally gets milk right when she wakes up and refuses to eat anything for a good 2 or 3 hours. I may try feeding her before giving her milk so that maybe she'll be more full. Definitely will give her a snack in the afternoon!
_____________________________
~Tammy~
"If people can be taught to hate, they can be taught to love."
spoken by Betsie ten Boom in The Hiding Place
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RE: Toddler Discipline Help Needed - 7/14/2009 4:17:25 PM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tea-Tea
Josie normally gets milk right when she wakes up
How much milk does she get and does she have it in a bottle or a sippy cup?
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RE: Toddler Discipline Help Needed - 7/14/2009 6:00:07 PM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tea-Tea
She starts melting down around 4:00 or 4:30 in the afternoon.
And that's with having a nap at what time?
That was the most difficult time of the day for my ds as well - too late for a nap, but too early for bed.
If you know that's often a difficult time, then you could plan a specific activity around that time, eg like a small snack and watching a DVD. Or going out with her in the stroller, both of you playing outside, a "play" bath etc.
quote:
We were eating around 6:30 due to my hubby's schedule and she goes down for bed between 8 and 8:30. I fed her last night about 5:30 and she went to bed at 7:30 and was asleep by 7:55. I will try doing that today.
That sounds like a good idea. It could well be that with all the growing and developing she is needing more sleep and needs to eat earlier and go to bed earlier.
Just one question: you said that you fed her. Do you just mean you gave her her meal, or do you mean you actually feed her (ie spoon the food into her mouth)?
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Also, what about tantrums in public? The other day she fell out in the shoe store. She was in desperate need of some shoes so since we were there for shoes, I just tried shoes on her with her screaming. We bought the shoes and left. Later in the week we went out for lunch and she fell out there because she didn't want to sit down. I grabbed up our lunch and we left. Just not sure what is the appropriate response!
With my ds, we just avoided eating out, unless it was in a place like McDonalds, or at a pub with a large garden. Re the shoe store, I'd have done the same as you. In any other store, I would have just carried on regardless, ignoring the tantrum. I remember once I was out with my ds in town, and needing to buy some things from the pharmacy. I was standing looking at the shelves of products, when he decided he wanted to go and had a melt down because we didn't. He threw himself on the floor and starting yelling and kicking. So I just stepped over him and carried on shopping (ignoring the inevitable looks), staying close by but not even attempting to communicate with him. When he stopped, I said brightly "have you stopped now? up you come!" and offered him my hand, which he gladly took, then got up and was fine. For my ds, I KNEW that any attention I paid him while he was tantrumming would make things worse, make the tantrum last longer. As it was, he was mostly done with tantrums by the time he was two and a half.
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"It is a serious stellar day when I agree with both Ruth and Manda." Surpassing Peace, November 2009
Proud Member of the Imperfect Wives' Club
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) 19 month old to stay in spot after I leave unless there is something restraining them. 
... not that that is much consolation now! I know how hard it is! But I am positive you are doing a really good job and especially in light of the circumstances. A cheer for you ... GOOOoooooOOOOO MAMA!
