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Sin in a life is more complex than we think - 8/5/2009 10:02:56 AM
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TMeeks
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Someone asked me a great question about my frequent assertion to those having marital or relationship problems is that the root of their problems is rejection in their lives. This seems counter to the idea that the real root of our problems is sin. I thought it was a great question and one that many others might have. Before answering, I'd like to point out that if you do a word search on 'root' you will not find a single time the phrase 'the root of our problems is sin'. That is certainly preached from pulpits. But, it is an extrapolation from Scriptures and not actual Scripture. Here are some references we DO find with a search on the word "root". Duet 29:18 ...make sure there is no root among you that produces such bitter poison. Luke 3:9 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire." Hebrews 12:15 See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. Over my 40 years of being a Christian, I began to realize that there were so many people that continually went up and down in their walk with Jesus Christ in wide swings. It was obvious that they had asked for forgiveness over and over and over. Yet, periodically, they would return to an addiction or reject others as not being spiritual enough and leave the church. Something was wrong. Now, whenever we see that it appears the Bible is failing us, we have to realize that it is NOT the Bible. It is how we INTERPRET the Bible that is the problem. And, clearly, something wasn't working in these people's lives. And, the problem wasn't UNBELIEF for they DID believe. They FERVENTLY believed. It had to be something else. That something else turned out to be the fact that we were trying to help these people by dealing with their SINS without recognizing that the issue of sin goes a lot deeper than active sin controlled by the free will of a person. We were addressing the problems of these people as being primarily due to this or that sin in their life. And, that was based on our own shallow view of sin in the life of an individual. What I came to understand is that there is not ONE sin problem; but, FOUR. How this sin affects us has to do with sowing and reaping. Any sin in a life, no matter whose sin it is, is reaped in that life. Sin Problem #1 - The Soil: When we are born our minds are already corrupted by the sin nature. The trees in our brain, on which memories will be built have a tendency to accept and bind negative, fear based thoughts than they do faith based thoughts. The old man, therefore, is built to collect thoughts contrary to the truth of Jesus Christ. We do NOT start out as clean vessels; but, as dirty vessels through the fall of our father Adam. Sin Problem #2 - The Roots: From the moment of birth, we begin collecting input to our minds through the senses. These inputs form the roots of all our subsequent learning and thinking. The dendrites in our brain, are shaped like trees and each and every thing that comes in through our senses is attached to these trees. All subsequent thoughts are evaluated, catelogued and attached based on what is already stored. Almost immediately seeds of sin are being sown in the mind of a child because it is surrounded by sinful people. Some are only mildly affected and while we may have some root memories that are negative we are relatively free of theses compared to others. Some children are born to perverted parents or subjected to horrible things from perverted or cruel people around them. Every cruelty is stored, sown as sin seed to be reaped later in the life of the child. Rejection forms very poor roots. Sin Problem #3 - The Branches: As you read these words they are being taken in by your eyes, converted to electrical impulses, packaged with chemicals to allow the inpulses to be stored as physical matter and evaluated, catelogued and stored based on your previous memory of having heard the phrase "the root of the problem is sin". Where that thought is stored is based on where the brain finds the best match. So, early memories have a profound effect on our subsequent thinking. But, the irony is that those early roots are covered over by every new memory that forms new branches on those original roots. Rejection grows tenacles throughout the brain. Sin Problem #4 - Reaping: This is where most people attack the problem of sin. As a person reaps the sin that Adam sowed, reaps the sin that a harsh father sowed, reaps the sin that was sown by their reaction to the pain of the first two they DO sins that we can see. So, we tell them the secret to happiness is to deal with their 'sin problem' and it is. But, the sin we deal with is on the surface. Like a giant iceberg the sin on the surface is just a small part of the 'sin problem' that a person has. And, in some cases, the REAL sin problem was sown by the SIN OF OTHERS. It doesn't matter whose sin was sown in our lives. It is WE that reap it. That is the critical thing that we miss when we use a simplistic phrase like 'the root of their problem is sin' without truly pondering all that this idea means. While the following verse wasn't directly dealing with rejection or even the way the mind stores memories, I still find it remarkable at how well it demonstrates the cleaning out of sin in our lives by going right to the REAL root. Luke 3:9 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. Rejection IS the root of the problem in the lives of many people. Yes, that rejection is the result of SIN. And, Yes, it must be rooted out. But, that sin was not the child's sin. It was the sin of another that became a tree in the life of that child that does NOT product good fruit. So, we must examine the trees of our mind and cut down every one that does not bear good fruit. Some would prefer that I concentrate on picking the sin leaves off of a bad tree. But, in going right at early childhood rejection, I AM tackling sin. I'm going after the sin sowed by others in the child's life and killing the bad roots. The leaves will die when the roots are dead.
< Message edited by TMeeks -- 8/5/2009 9:57:34 PM >
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http://focusonliberty.blogspot.com Is "Left" vs. "Right" really accurate?- Check out the Liberty Dial!
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RE: Sin in a life is more complex that we think - 8/5/2009 10:54:45 AM
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dksitecivil
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quote:
Sin in a life is more complex that we think View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums) Very thought provoking. How would one or I go about removing/killing the bad roots (and their tentacles) sowed by others?
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"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." Jeremiah 29:11 NIV
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RE: Sin in a life is more complex that we think - 8/5/2009 11:00:30 AM
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RustyCarr
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TMeeks, Let me simplify what you just wrote. 1. We are all born ignorant into an ignorant sinful world full of lies, deception, and error. 2. If we are born into a family that fails to know, teach, and obey the Ten Commandments with love for God (the Truth) and family, friends, and neighbors, then we will inherit the iniquities of our father, Ex. 20:5. At one point Jesus pointed at men and said, Jn 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 3. With the sacrifice that Jesus took upon Himself, we, the sons of iniquity, can leave behind the lies and deception of the world and worldly fathers. We can leave behind error and renew our minds to conform to the Truth of our Father in heaven. This is what fixes our brain to function properly according to God's Truth. 4. THE TRUTH IS THE CURE. It is our salvation. It opens our eyes to error, inquity, and sin. Our love for Jesus and for family friends and neighbors should give us a desire to teach the Truth in love to those who are in error, who are comfortable in their iniquity and error. BUT, Jn 15:18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. Jn 15:19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 5. Now, if the church has fallen into a backslidden condition over the last many decades, then those who know the Truth must strive to awaken a renewed love for the Truth and family, friends, and neighbors. This occured many times in the Old Testament. People and churches are prone to backslide and become comfortable in iniquity. They become blind to God's Truth, and desire to resist it because it convicts them of sin and error. 6. Sin is simply not love. Sin is a transgression against love. Where sin and error is accepted and not boldly taught against, God is not there. The devil is there, instead. And we know that the devil is capable of transforming himself into an angel of light. He does this while combining pieces of the Truth with nonsense. Nonsense that tickles the ear and casts the spell of security and complacency, and a denial of the need for repentence. 7. I say again, the Truth is the cure. The Holy Spirit will convict and lead us into the Truth if we get rid of human pride and nonsensical human wisdom. 2Chron. 7: 14 applies today. We must turn around and leave behind error. We must seek His face as a humble child and He will renew our minds and our land. I really hope that this post is not taken as written by a "bitter" Christian. It is written in love for my brothers and sisters in Christ. We need a great awakening as the time of the end is near. Let us not allow ourselves to be decieved.... Edited TOS 6 Blessings, Rusty
< Message edited by Kath -- 8/5/2009 6:11:29 PM >
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It is better to obey God rather than men. The Truth, God's word, within is the lamp that guides our feet. -For the Lord gives wisdom, and from His mouth come knowledge and understanding. Prov. 2:6-
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RE: Sin in a life is more complex that we think - 8/5/2009 12:50:49 PM
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bob97
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I’ll go a step father; the whole process is subjecting our personal will to the will of God. Dependent upon Him and living within His will. Gods will is confirmed to us in His word, the Bible. As long as we live our life depending upon our will we will sin. Love God and study His word; or study His word and learn to love God even more. Just my opinion… Bob
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The LORD clears the road for me! The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Sin in a life is more complex that we think - 8/5/2009 1:14:44 PM
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allisonbrett
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IMHO all sin is based upon one single principal: selfishness. This is basically nothing more than rebellion towards God and His ways in favor of me and my ways. We, as a human species refuse to forgive because the other person doesn't deserve it, we refuse to think of others since they never think of us, we don't show empathy or compassion since others didn't show it to us. They don't know what I've been through. They don't understand.... There are any number of excuses we can bring up of why we choose to do the things we do. Yes, we live in a sinful world. Learning to live above it is hard. There is no question about that one. Yes, we know that not everyone has had the same experiences, options, choices or advantages that we've had: good, bad or indifferent. We make excuses for why we do the things we do. We find ways to justify our own sins and yet judge those that live a life of sin. We, as flawed humans take for granted and tend to overlook how God tries to protect us through His word. He tells us He knows best yet we want control over our own lives. We know what is best for us and we dont' want to give up that control. As Christians we claim that we are enlightened to His word and try to walk in His ways but it seems that too many of us are overwhelmingly judgmental and critical. I've heard it stated that Christians are the only ones to attack their wounded or eat their young. It is often our own sin that we overlook. But I'll save that rant for another soapbox. When we look at the origin of satan we see an angelic being, the most beautiful ever imagined defy his own creator with the thoughts, "what about me!" Selfishness.
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Allison A work in progress so please be patient, God is still working on me. Ouch, it sure is painful!
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RE: Sin in a life is more complex that we think - 8/5/2009 2:01:47 PM
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RustyCarr
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97 I’ll go a step father; the whole process is subjecting our personal will to the will of God. Dependent upon Him and living within His will. Gods will is confirmed to us in His word, the Bible. As long as we live our life depending upon our will we will sin. Love God and study His word; or study His word and learn to love God even more. Just my opinion… Bob Good post, Bob. And if we love God we are required to speak the Truth to those we love. We do not preach a fluffy fog of feel-good theology... Love in Christ, Rusty
_____________________________
It is better to obey God rather than men. The Truth, God's word, within is the lamp that guides our feet. -For the Lord gives wisdom, and from His mouth come knowledge and understanding. Prov. 2:6-
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RE: Sin in a life is more complex that we think - 8/5/2009 2:29:33 PM
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RustyCarr
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quote:
ORIGINAL: allisonbrett IMHO all sin is based upon one single principal: selfishness. This is basically nothing more than rebellion towards God and His ways in favor of me and my ways. We, as a human species refuse to forgive because the other person doesn't deserve it, we refuse to think of others since they never think of us, we don't show empathy or compassion since others didn't show it to us. They don't know what I've been through. They don't understand.... There are any number of excuses we can bring up of why we choose to do the things we do. Yes, we live in a sinful world. Learning to live above it is hard. There is no question about that one. Yes, we know that not everyone has had the same experiences, options, choices or advantages that we've had: good, bad or indifferent. We make excuses for why we do the things we do. We find ways to justify our own sins and yet judge those that live a life of sin. We, as flawed humans take for granted and tend to overlook how God tries to protect us through His word. He tells us He knows best yet we want control over our own lives. We know what is best for us and we dont' want to give up that control. As Christians we claim that we are enlightened to His word and try to walk in His ways but it seems that too many of us are overwhelmingly judgmental and critical. I've heard it stated that Christians are the only ones to attack their wounded or eat their young. It is often our own sin that we overlook. But I'll save that rant for another soapbox. When we look at the origin of satan we see an angelic being, the most beautiful ever imagined defy his own creator with the thoughts, "what about me!" Selfishness. Selfishness is the separation of man from God, for the man who loves self more than God does not know God. Add to selfishness "fear." Fear provokes an attitude of self preservation. But the Bible says fear God rather than men. Speak the Truth fearlessly. Christians are supposed to be the ones who know the Truth. The rest of mankind does not, and we are fishers of men. We are commanded to teach the Truth, fearlessly. Forgiveness is absolutely necessary. It heals our hearts. A heart full of bitterness and retribution cannot go to God for ones own forgiveness. For giveness is easy when we realize that the offenders who hurt us know not what they do. Lk 23:34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” quote:
As Christians we claim that we are enlightened to His word and try to walk in His ways but it seems that too many of us are overwhelmingly judgmental and critical. I've heard it stated that Christians are the only ones to attack their wounded or eat their young. It is often our own sin that we overlook. But I'll save that rant for another soapbox. Were the prophets in the Old Testament judgemental? Was Jesus judgemental when He turned of over the tables in the temple? When He called some men "you brood of vipers" and "old foxes?" A human being cannot judge and condemn someone to hell. That is God's role. But the Word of God gives us the ability to judge and discern correctly. It is God's Word that convicts. My words are the words of a man, unless I have stolen them from the Bible. If I have stolen them from the Bible, they do not belong to me, but to God. I can steal them and speak them, but they are still God's Words, not mine. That is the Truth! Now, how many people can I get to agree with this? America's "average Christians" have allowed their children to be trained in iniquity, Ex. 20:5. We have allowed our children to be educated by government secularists, socialists, and hedonists in government schools. The "iniquity of the fathers" has been passed on to too many upcoming generations. Just look at what is pumped into the minds of our children in government schools, through the TV, and from unchurched peers in the neighborhood. Not to mention all the gameboy filth that takes away good clean fun while pumping ideas of death and the occult into the heads of our children. Same thing goes for the horrible rap music.... Their is too much iniquity going on out there. We need repentence and renewal. We need to seek His face.... Still open to everyone's correction if my words are in error. Everyone agree? Does the OP agree? Rusty
_____________________________
It is better to obey God rather than men. The Truth, God's word, within is the lamp that guides our feet. -For the Lord gives wisdom, and from His mouth come knowledge and understanding. Prov. 2:6-
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RE: Sin in a life is more complex that we think - 8/5/2009 2:53:24 PM
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bob97
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Forgive our debts as we forgive our debtors…does God even forgive us if we can’t forgive others? If we belong to Christ God has forgiven us positional…God sees us as forgiven and set aside for His use but we are expected to live a life worthy of this position. It would be my opinion that if we can’t forgive others that there will be consequences; both in our current life as well as our existence in our next life. Now that being said it would be my opinion that our eternal life would only be effected if we were to die in a state of being unforgiving to others. However if we can’t forgive in this life we can never have a true personal relationship with God…if we can’t love others sufficiently to forgive we can’t love God the way He intends. Our life will be full of strife and we cannot experience the joy that God provides for those who truly love and obey Him. Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me! The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Sin in a life is more complex that we think - 8/5/2009 3:13:59 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1532
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quote:
ORIGINAL: allisonbrett IMHO all sin is based upon one single principal: selfishness. This is basically nothing more than rebellion towards God and His ways in favor of me and my ways. We, as a human species refuse to forgive because the other person doesn't deserve it, we refuse to think of others since they never think of us, we don't show empathy or compassion since others didn't show it to us. They don't know what I've been through. They don't understand.... There are any number of excuses we can bring up of why we choose to do the things we do. Yes, we live in a sinful world. Learning to live above it is hard. There is no question about that one. Yes, we know that not everyone has had the same experiences, options, choices or advantages that we've had: good, bad or indifferent. We make excuses for why we do the things we do. We find ways to justify our own sins and yet judge those that live a life of sin. We, as flawed humans take for granted and tend to overlook how God tries to protect us through His word. He tells us He knows best yet we want control over our own lives. We know what is best for us and we dont' want to give up that control. As Christians we claim that we are enlightened to His word and try to walk in His ways but it seems that too many of us are overwhelmingly judgmental and critical. I've heard it stated that Christians are the only ones to attack their wounded or eat their young. It is often our own sin that we overlook. But I'll save that rant for another soapbox. When we look at the origin of satan we see an angelic being, the most beautiful ever imagined defy his own creator with the thoughts, "what about me!" Selfishness. Rant away! There is nothing you have written that I don't agree with 100%. But, where are the specifics? As much as I agree with you... which is 100%, the observations you make seem to be leveled at the surface of a persons life and choices. What about all the complexities underneath that contribute to driving those choices? Suppose, for instance, a child under 2 is abused by someone repeatedly burning their skin with a cigarette. (Yes, this HAS happened!) That event is recorded in that child's brain as a physical structure on one of their "memory trees" with which we store all of the input that we recieve. They have no words to describe it. The brain simply stores the fear, the pain and the map of the cocktail of chemicals that came with the fear and pain. Even though the adult may not have ANY words or even any fully cognitive memory with which to verbally describe that original memory, the SIN that was sown in their life by another, CAN and WILL affect the way many subsequent events in their life are processed. As that sin is reaped, it may surface only as an emotional pain that the adult cannot fully identify. So, perhaps, they try to relieve that pain through alcohol or drugs... in other words they DO sin. If we only treat the surface sin and not transform the memory of the burns, the mind of that person has not truly and fully been TRANSFORMED and RENEWED. We need to think more deeply about sin and God's solution for sin.
_____________________________
http://focusonliberty.blogspot.com Is "Left" vs. "Right" really accurate?- Check out the Liberty Dial!
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RE: Sin in a life is more complex that we think - 8/5/2009 3:26:25 PM
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TMeeks
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97 Forgive our debts as we forgive our debtors…does God even forgive us if we can’t forgive others? If we belong to Christ God has forgiven us positional…God sees us as forgiven and set aside for His use but we are expected to live a life worthy of this position. It would be my opinion that if we can’t forgive others that there will be consequences; both in our current life as well as our existence in our next life. Now that being said it would be my opinion that our eternal life would only be effected if we were to die in a state of being unforgiving to others. However if we can’t forgive in this life we can never have a true personal relationship with God…if we can’t love others sufficiently to forgive we can’t love God the way He intends. Our life will be full of strife and we cannot experience the joy that God provides for those who truly love and obey Him. Bob Again, Bob87, you are right on target... in an overview sense. But, what I'd like us to do is to take a DEEPER look at the full ramifications of living a life that starts out with a sin nature, is brought up by parents who make mistakes, can be affected by dysfunctional relatives, friends and even strangers in terrible ways and has a brain, with which it has to make choices, that stores ALL the negative along with the postive. How do we get at the ROOT of the issues of sin and not just level our efforts on the surface. Usually, for instance, when we talk about forgiveness we have a person that we know we need to forgive. But, what if we don't? The pain from sin sown by that unknown person is just as real as that of the pain caused by known sinners. But, there is no specific person to forgive. I believe the Bible HAS the answer to that. But, if we only target surface issues we will never even think to go deeper to, potentially, the REAL root of the surface sin... the sin of an unknown other sown in a child's life. Let's not be content to simply deal with things in a quick and easy pat-answer way. Let's really ponder God's FULL solution for those in pain.
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http://focusonliberty.blogspot.com Is "Left" vs. "Right" really accurate?- Check out the Liberty Dial!
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Stumblingblock or Sin? - 8/5/2009 9:54:06 PM
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TMeeks
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We discussed this topic in church this evening and one of the participants pointed out a weakness in my explanation that makes it seem that I believe another's sin in our life relieves us of responsibility... which I do NOT believe. Choosing to sin is still choosing to sin. And, nothing in our past relieves us of the responsiblity NOT to sin. The key word that puts the interaction between the role that other's sin plays in the lives of the hurt and their reaction is the word STUMBLINGBLOCK. If that stumblingblock is a form of rejection then it provides greater opportunity for the sin of rejection to play out later in that life. The one that inserted pain or rejection into a child's experience planted a sin seed that is reaped as a STUMBLINGBLOCK that can easily entice sin later in that child's life. But, what we DO with those stumbling blocks is OUR responsibility. If we use it as an occasion to sin, we are held accountable. As long as the STUMBLINGBLOCK is allowed to fester in a life, it will continually prompt pain and provide an opportunity for sin. So, getting rid of the STUMBLINGBLOCKS is as important as getting rid of the sin that rides above it. Hope that helps clarify and allay some concerns. :)
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http://focusonliberty.blogspot.com Is "Left" vs. "Right" really accurate?- Check out the Liberty Dial!
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RE: Stumblingblock or Sin? - 8/5/2009 10:38:57 PM
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dksitecivil
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From: South Florida
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From my own personnel journey through life, both before and after I accepted Jesus Christ, I believe your thoughts may have some merit. I hope this thread continues as I am looking at myself in a way I hadn't previously. I have Years of issues/sin I have been wondering how they were started (planted). Again, very thought provoking (for me anyhow) and would like to see how the OP thoughts as well as responders play out.
_____________________________
"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." Jeremiah 29:11 NIV
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RE: Stumblingblock or Sin? - 8/6/2009 9:08:17 AM
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TMeeks
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dksitecivil From my own personnel journey through life, both before and after I accepted Jesus Christ, I believe your thoughts may have some merit. I hope this thread continues as I am looking at myself in a way I hadn't previously. I have Years of issues/sin I have been wondering how they were started (planted). Again, very thought provoking (for me anyhow) and would like to see how the OP thoughts as well as responders play out. Thank you, dksitecivil, The only images the forum allows is our avatar so I am going to have to use links to various images. This first demonstrates two different memory dendrites. The one on the left is an undeveloped dendrite with few connections and the one on the right shows a dendrite with many connections. We are NOT talking about more cells. There are only two cells in this image. We are talking about growing connections on an existing brain cell, or dendrite. Image of two neurons You can study a tree in your yard if you want to ponder how the past can provide stumblingblocks to your present. Consider how that tree grew. First there is the sprout. Let's say that something twists that sprout and deforms that. So, we'll say that a deformed sprout represents the effects of the sin nature on our most basic memory tree. Then the first branches appear. They could be good branches or bad branches. These first branches will be the foundation for connecting and growing all future branches. Looking at a full blown tree, look at how many smaller branches originate with those very first branches. All the the full blown tree is hangs on the very first branches that were formed. So, the position in which a painful event is stored in a memory is CRITICAL. And, how long we wait to deal with a new painful memory is equally critical. It's easy to cut off the outer branches of a tree. It's not so easy to cut off one of the first one or two branches that go back to the earliest growth of a tree. Cut one of those off and you end up cutting off a hundred child branches! Fortunately, God has made out brains so that we don't have to cut a branch off. Every branch can be re-shaped and re-structured... or, in the words of the Bible, TRANSFORMED. Even so, it could be harder to restructure one of the earliest branches than it is one more recently formed. I don't know about that one way or the other right now. It's something I still have to research. But, from experience with people, childhood trauma upon which subsequent memories have been built has been EXTREMELY difficult to heal with normal counseling. It may be that realizing these memories are a physical connection on a dendrite, that are built to be changed under the right conditions, may spell relief for countless people that could not find help in the past. At any rate, the first step in realizing that we must treat sin and the effects of sin, both ours and the stumblingblocks sowed by others, at EVERY LEVEL... Not just the top level of currently occurring sin. For now, I would hope that anyone reading this would take a few minutes a look closely at a tree. And, visualize the reality that as you are looking at that tree, you are growing the trees in your mind as you add the input from your senses about that tree. And, then look at the largest branches as the trunk splits off. How would the tree be different if one of those great branches were diseased or badly twisted. Look for a group of branches that might be less than perfectly arranged. What if you could straighten every branch and make it perfectly aligned? Then remember... the trees in your brain CAN be changed. God always said so. Now, science has confirmed it. dksitecivil, if we try to remember what happened before some age in our young life, it will be difficult to recall at will. But, that may NOT mean that those memories do not exist as part of the structures of the neurons in our brain. It most likely means that other memories are more vivid, or more easily accessed. These other newer memories, perhaps, satisfy the brain that the memory it is seeking has been found, when in reality it has not searched low enough into the memory hiarchy. I'm just making a guess here based on how we do know memories are formed. But, we have to be very careful with trying to 'recover' lost memories. That is precisely because an inept counselor can actually alter memories by suggesting something that happened that actually did not happen, causing a structural change in a negative way. That's also why hypnosis can be so dangerous. It is the Word of God that is the safe way to change negative memories by adding truth to the neuron structure. Was this explanation helpful at all?
< Message edited by TMeeks -- 8/6/2009 9:24:05 AM >
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http://focusonliberty.blogspot.com Is "Left" vs. "Right" really accurate?- Check out the Liberty Dial!
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