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The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/12/2009 5:34:27 PM
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7over6
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Especially for those of you in ministry: what would be the perfect church to work at/for (or attend). If you could make your church conform more exactly to the Word of God what would it look like then?
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/12/2009 6:30:39 PM
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Johnny_
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Although I think our modern church system is faulty, I believe Jesus Christ made the church perfect. I think this would be a fair representation of the perfect church.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wikipedia
Church Community
Christians proclaimed a God of love who enjoined them to share a higher love with one another. Some interpreted the Old Testament as revealing primarily a God of justice, whereas the New Testament, particularly the letters of Paul and the Gospel of John, revealed a more loving God. Parallels are found in Pharisaic and Rabbinic Judaism. Paul of Tarsus is represented in Acts 17:22-33 as equating the Unknown God of the Greeks as revealed in the Christian God. Early Christian communities welcomed everyone, including slaves and women, who were generally shunned in Greco-Roman culture.
Christian Worship
Justin Martyr described 2nd century Christian liturgy in his First Apology (c. 150) to Emperor Antoninus Pius, and his description remains relevant to the basic structure of Christian liturgical worship:
"And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need."
Thus, as Justin described, Christians assemble for communal worship on Sunday, the day of the resurrection, though other liturgical practices often occur outside this setting. Scripture readings are drawn from the Old and New Testaments, but especially the Gospels. Often these are arranged on an annual cycle, using a book called a lectionary. Instruction is given based on these readings, called a sermon, or homily. There are a variety of congregational prayers, including thanksgiving, confession, and intercession, which occur throughout the service and take a variety of forms including recited, responsive, silent, or sung. The Lord's Prayer, or Our Father, is regularly prayed.
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/12/2009 6:36:01 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
If you could make your church conform more exactly to the Word of God what would it look like then?
Unified diversity.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/12/2009 7:13:45 PM
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7over6
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Great post Johny, thanks for he quote that is an awesome account of Christian church history! I like how offerings collected are then distributed to the down and out, can you image in chruches paid less for fancy showyness and distributed a check to the legit down and out folk such as single moms, widows, and sick people? That's love!
My dream pastor would be kingdom minded not church minded, preach from the NT and OT equally however put the gospels above that in importance on relationship with God through Jesus Christs sacrifice. Also he and other teachers would not have fear of man in that they theologically apologize after every sentance that may step on a few toes and convict a fellow (heaven forbid...).
The Holy Spirit would not be hindered but invited to move through people displaying Himself in all 9 gifts and all 5 offices would be active in there appropriate boundaries.
Faith would be the driving force behind how we react, and separation from the world would be a big emphasis.
Missions would be throughout the year not just once in the summer for the youngens, discipleship would be consistent and real, prayer meetings would be held for all services and excersize all forms of prayer (warfare, intercession, repentance, thanks etc.). Musical worship would not be about sound or image but a chance to express your weeks worth of hunger and thanks for God with the accompaniment of voices and song. Decisions would be based on the Word, with wisdom, and after much prayer not on mans intellect or numbers.
just my 200 cents.
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/12/2009 7:19:39 PM
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Johnny_
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<-----Nods his head in agreement.
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/12/2009 8:32:19 PM
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rawr.ben
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 7over6
what would be the perfect church to work at/for (or attend)
If I ever find the perfect church, I will make sure not to attend it. I'll ruin it.
_____________________________
rawr.ben
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/13/2009 2:55:12 AM
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Johnny_
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There was actually a church in the bible that was highly praised and found to be without fault or blemish. The church in Philadelphia:
"And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this: 'I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name. Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie-- I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you. Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name. (Revelation 3:7-14).
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/14/2009 4:13:48 PM
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Lapidoth
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
quote:
ORIGINAL: 7over6
what would be the perfect church to work at/for (or attend)
If I ever find the perfect church, I will make sure not to attend it. I'll ruin it.
Thank You..................................LOL
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/14/2009 9:39:38 PM
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agapist
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Perfect is probably something that would ruin any decent church, at least if it were something the church strived for. So much more is learned by mistakes and failings.
Fellowship, fellowship, fellowship in all its works and services. Where each member has the understanding that the self is no longer in their flesh but in the body of believers.
Its primary purpose:to be of maximum service to others through a direct and loving relationship with God.
The final authority on everything is not a board or committee but God, found in prayful concensus, not argued compromise. It would be autonomous, unaffiliated with any denomination or sect.
It would be based on a SPIRIT OF ACTION and not a system of belief. We would not promote beliefs but live as an attraction for following Christ.
Stress that how they believe is at least as important as what they believe.
They are to BECOME as little children: trusting, open, and receptive in each moment to God.
Surrender, surrender, surrender.
Make it clear that accepting Jesus as their lord and savior is not converting to Christianity but reverting to the image and likeness in which we were created.
Have a constant reminder that the members are precious in God's sight as well as being "the light of the world" and as Jesus was so are they to be in the world.
It would daily practice forgetfulness of self through principles honoring God's direction. The purpose: to have NO IMAGE.
Love would be recognized as the whole purpose of truth.
No tithing; such a practice would be considered callous and selfish. God wants ALL of our heart, mind, soul, and strength, not a percentage.
No employed staff. No professional Christians.
Our opinion on outside issues--anything going on in the world--is prayer and welcoming arms.
Its Creed: Jesus is Lord, and faith in him expressed through love is ALL THAT COUNTS.
The congregation would love one another...build up one another...accept one another...admonish one another...greet one another...serve one another...bear each other's burdens...have forebearance...be subject to one another...encourage one another...comfort one another...teach one another...stimulate to love and good works...confess to one another...pray for and with one another...be hospitable to all...play together...sing together...take joy in one another...celebrate God's love together. Community, community, community.
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/14/2009 11:23:41 PM
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Johnny_
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Agapist, nobody in this thread has implied the church congregation should seek perfectionism. Perfectionism is a false doctrine so I'm hoping no one would promote this teaching in the church. With that said, I do think a church should seek to follow the examples of the early church, especially the biblical model set by Justin Martyr. There are 3 great examples of church structure that the modern church can learn from Justin Martyr's First Apology in 150 AD.
1. Lifting up songs & hymns of Worship
2. Prayers of confession and thanksgiving
3. NT & OT teaching which shows the God of Love and God of Justice.
< Message edited by Johnny_ -- 8/15/2009 8:57:52 AM >
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/15/2009 12:30:22 AM
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agapist
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I am fairly certain, Johnny, that the "church" in this thread was not meant to be a building attended for a few hours once or twice a week but as it is described in Scripture: the body of believers living as the body of Christ. Fortunately or unfortunately, people are involved, and fellowship is crucial.
As the Church is the body of Christ, man, fellowship is all about God.
At the end of my post are scriptural suggestions for the ideal functioning of the Church. (Jn13:34; rom14:19; rom15:7; rom15:14; rom14:16; gal5:13; gal6:2; eph4:2; eph5:21; col3:16; 1thes4:18; heb3:13; heb10:24; Js3:16; Js5:16; 1pt4:9)
As for the one or two hour attendance once or twice a week in a building, Justin has some good ideas
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/15/2009 1:31:44 AM
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Johnny_
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Agapist,
I never said church was meant to be a building attended for a few hours. I also never said we cannot fellowship in church. You seem to be arguing over things I never said. You can quote me verse after verse, but that doesn't negate the fact that church is place to worship God. Hence, we get the name Sunday Morning Worship Service. This is my main point.
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/15/2009 11:29:32 AM
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agapist
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Sorry, Johnny, I was not arguing or finding fault.
The place the Church meets are called churches by many, even when they meet for services on Saturday but these meeting places are not always in a structure specifically dedicated to those services. There are other names for where people gather together as the Church to worship. "Church" can be in someone's house or a suite in an office building and so forth.
The word "ideal" means "a standard of perfection...taken as a model for imitation." Using ideals often leads to attempts at "perfectionism."
As you felt it necessary first to "correct" me where it was unnecessary and then to take my comments as argumentation, let me add this.
Your words. "...doesn't negate the fact that church is a place of worship." If the question was about a place of worship, the "ideal church" would be an architectural question.
Three things characterized the Early Church: 1) removal from the world; 2) childlike trust in the word of God; 3) love for one another
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/15/2009 12:01:34 PM
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agapist
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Hope you have a sense of humor there, Johnny, although I may have been too pointed.
Obviously I still have a problem with "unnecessary criticism."
But back to the Church.
When we make "church" a building and attendance an obligation, we can leave"church" when "church" is over, our duty fulfilled, and go home and start our day.
Yet when Church is who you are, it is never over and you can't leave. It is not over there, three blocks down you can't miss the steeple its on top of a hill, but you are the temple, the place on which you stand is holy ground.
I feel the less glamorous the edifice, the more inward is drawn the worship of God. If we came to think of our meeting places just as that, no special label or sanctification as a holy place onto itself without the Body of Christ present, it would go a long way to help each member of the Body of Christ realize the kingdom of God is within them.
Church is not where we go for Sunday (Saturday) worship; Church is the structure and strength of our fellowship, of loving one another.
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/15/2009 1:40:34 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Unified diversity. I prefer diverse unity in my church!
The ideal church is composed of ideal Christians: God-fearing, Bible-believing, Spirit-led followers of Christ who are never so heavenly minded that they are of no earthly benefit.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/15/2009 2:21:30 PM
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Johnny_
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Agapist,
Which early church taught removal from the world? I think you just made this up because I've never heard of this my entire life. What good is it for believers to be removed from the world? The only result is ignorance.
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/15/2009 3:00:59 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Johnny_
Agapist,
Which early church taught removal from the world? I think you just made this up because I've never heard of this my entire life. What good is it for believers to be removed from the world? The only result is ignorance.
(2Co 6:14) Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
(2Co 6:15) And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
(2Co 6:16) And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(2Co 6:17) Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
(2Co 6:18) And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
Certainly speaks to not being involved with the world.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/15/2009 3:09:23 PM
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Johnny_
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RC, the context of that verse is speaking about not being involved with worthless idols. The verse you quoted is not instructing believers to remove themselves from the world.
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/15/2009 3:55:56 PM
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agapist
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Johnny, search "Early Church" on the internet before you start saying someone is lying. You take everything so personally your knee-jerk response is insult.
Take a little time and find a little love before you post anything to me. okay?
I have several posts that deal with worldliness. Again, before you start "correcting" people based solely on your opinion, Johnny, do a little research. If you have a Concordance, look up "earthly" and "worldly" or "worldliness."
But if you are just here to be contentious or play a capricious devil's advocate, which the evidence in your posts thus far strongly suggests, have at it Johnny. More facts and less vitriol would be nice.
And of course RC's cite is expressing removal from the things of the world, what is part and parcel of being "of the world."
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/15/2009 4:22:00 PM
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Johnny_
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Agapist,
I never accused you of lying. Lying means you intentionally made a statement to mislead another individual. What I said was "I think you made it up" which means you may have said it without giving it much thought or doing research. I'm sorry if you may have taken it the wrong way. I also am not taking our dialogue personally. On the contrary, I am enjoying our conversation. This will be my last post in this thread. Agapist, your more than welcome to PM me with further questions or comments. Thanks.
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/15/2009 5:25:26 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Johnny_
RC, the context of that verse is speaking about not being involved with worthless idols. The verse you quoted is not instructing believers to remove themselves from the world.
(2Co 6:14) Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
Are you saying that Paul is calling Idols unbelievers?
Now that is some new doctrine.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/15/2009 7:47:16 PM
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DeliveredDarling
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quote:
(2Co 6:14) Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
Are you saying that Paul is calling Idols unbelievers?
Now that is some new doctrine.
Thanks
RC
Tsk, tsk RC! You know full well that verse is in reference to marrying a non-believer.
I didn't understand Agaptist to say don't have anything to do with non-believers. I did understand him to stress that we need to be separate, in other words loving people to the point, that there is no way they could associate us with the world!
if we don't interact with believer's-we aren't fulfilling the Great Commission, nor are we even remotely acting like Jesus!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/15/2009 8:49:35 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Johnny, search "Early Church" on the internet before you start saying someone is lying. You take everything so personally your knee-jerk response is insult.
Take a little time and find a little love before you post anything to me. okay? Frankly, agapist, I find this comment of yours rather insulting, but Johnny apparently overlooked your insolence.
quote:
quote:
Certainly speaks to not being involved with the world. The verse you quoted is not instructing believers to remove themselves from the world. Come on guys, this is semantic sparring. I agree with Johnny - removing oneself from the world is physically impossible. Not being in love with worldly things is commanded. The verses to confirm this are John 17:11 - "But they are still in the world." and 1 John 2:15 - "Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him."
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/15/2009 9:13:23 PM
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agapist
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You find what I said insulting? where? how?
Because Johnny was not familiar with a point I was making he said I made it up. If I told you the moon was moving five feet a year from the earth, would you ask where you could find that information, look for it yourself, or accuse me of fabrication?
The point I feel it is important to make, and I made it to you as well, drmark, is to ease off this casual lack of respect shown here on many occasions. His immediate rsponse was to insult; a simple fact, not insolence. My suggestion to search the internet was so he could see for himself that I was not "making it up; no insolence there. Telling him I will not stand for future disrespect is a simple request to be treated decently.
Your ruling on the matter does not change any of that.
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RE: The Ideal Church - What would it be - 8/15/2009 9:27:29 PM
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agapist
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As far as "removal" from the world, the spirit of what is being said is this: we are in the world but not of the world. No one is suggesting, at least I am fairly certain of this, that we are to live in caves or on another planet. A little effort to look deeply, not just closely, would have revealed this.
The early church lived as a community. Yes, they had jobs in the world and interacted with non-believers, shopped at the market and did what other citizens did to take care of their household. But other than that kept themselves away from other worldly activities. From what I read, they did not partake in politics. They took the phrase "separated out" to mean just that.
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