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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Opening Post).
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[Poll]
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A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Opening Post).
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| Because I'm a good person. |
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| Because I've been baptized. |
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| Because of my works and faith. |
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| Because I've repented of my sins and accepted Christ as Lord. |
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| Because everyone goes to Heaven. |
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| Because of the Sacraments. |
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| Because of my works. |
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| Other (please specify). |
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Total Votes : 54
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(last vote on : 11/13/2009 11:09:25 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 8/22/2009 9:12:22 PM
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abraxas
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It's absurd to equate "imperfect" with "bad", which was is what you are doing, as far as I can tell. I interact every day with good people, and every last one of them--the good Christians, the good Buddhists, the good atheists, etc.--are imperfect. But they're good people, contrary to the misanthropy I see in the whole "there are no good people" claim of Christianity.
So sorry, Everyone, I did not say I was a bad person, and I don't believe I am. I know my faults, but I know they're not the whole picture. I may not be totally perfect, but parts of me are excellent. 
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 8/22/2009 10:28:16 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
It's absurd to equate "imperfect" with "bad", which was is what you are doing, as far as I can tell. I interact every day with good people, and every last one of them--the good Christians, the good Buddhists, the good atheists, etc.--are imperfect. But they're good people, contrary to the misanthropy I see in the whole "there are no good people" claim of Christianity.
Good according what what standard?
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So sorry, Everyone, I did not say I was a bad person, and I don't believe I am. I know my faults, but
You admit you have faults. Ok....let's go from there...
In my hand is a cup. In that cup is white paint. It is pure, without any spot whatsoever. There is not a single impurity in it whatsoever. If I choose to add a single drop of black to the paint, however minuscule, is the paint now totally pure, without a single imperfection?
Let's say I possess an airtight chamber in which the temperature is absolute 0. It is impossible to become any colder than it already is. Let's say I warm it one one-millionth of a degree. Is it now considered absolute 0? No, it becomes −459.669999° (I think I got that right  ).
You think you are good RELATIVELY speaking. But to what standard is your "goodness" measured? If there is no absolute standard or absolute truth by which to compare your goodness, then what you conceive to be "good" is no more or less accurate than Hitler's conception of "good".
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 8/22/2009 11:26:35 PM
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abraxas
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You're making the same mistake--assuming that "good" equates to "perfect" and anything less than an Absolute Standard of perfection cannot be good. Even if there is an Absolute Standard, that's fine--I know I don't match up to it perfectly, but that's just it. No one can. Do you think that if there's an omnipotent, all-WISE being, he's so incompetent that he can't make value distinctions anywhere between 100% perfect and 100%flawed? That he's too blind to see that it's impossible for us to match that perfect standard? And yet Christians talk about how angry he is... 
I promise you, that if I paint my house with a bucket of white paint with a drop of black in there, it's still going to come across as white. But the thing about humans is we're not a bucket of pure white paint, and it is IMPOSSIBLE FOR US TO BE "PURE WHITE". At least as we develop cognitively and start making ethical choices. We're inevitably shades of gray, which is why I can say with total confidence that the idea that we deserve some kind of unspeakable torment for ever and ever without any hope of reprieve, because God is full of wrath over our imperfect state is ridiculous, and frankly it sullies the concept of God, at least to me.
I highly doubt there is such an over-simplified eternal bliss on the right, eternal misery on the left, awaiting us, if anything awaits us. But hey, if there is, God will do with me what he will, right?
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 8/22/2009 11:54:49 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
You're making the same mistake--assuming that "good" equates to "perfect" and anything less than an Absolute Standard of perfection cannot be good. Even if there is an Absolute Standard, that's fine--I know I don't match up to it perfectly, but that's just it. No one can.
No one WILL....
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That he's too blind to see that it's impossible for us to match that perfect standard? And yet Christians talk about how angry he is...
Christians talk about how angry He is as a result of man's choice. You have a choice, and when you choose to disobey God, you reap the consequences. We have no right to tell an almighty God what His qualifications for eternal life ought to be.
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I promise you, that if I paint my house with a bucket of white paint with a drop of black in there, it's still going to come across as white.
But it will not be WHITE. It will have missed the mark.
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But the thing about humans is we're not a bucket of pure white paint, and it is IMPOSSIBLE FOR US TO BE "PURE WHITE".
It most certainly is possible with the leading of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:16)! With all due respect, this sounds to me like a feeble attempt at diminishing the severity and eternal consequences of you faults, hoping to convince yourself of your relative righteousness.
Again, to what standard to you apply your "goodness"? If it is not God, what then? It is what you feel at a certain moment? Is it evolutionary natural selection that guides you morals? Survival of the fittest? Culture? The "norm" of the present? What distinguishes your "goodness" or "morality" as being any better than the next person's? What is the standard that you believe humanity ought to live by? Does each individual create their own standard? If so, what is their guideline(s)?
These are all very important questions you need to answer for yourself. Your answers might just open your eyes to the logical and philosophical absurdities of humanistic postmodernism.
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At least as we develop cognitively and start making ethical choices. We're inevitably shades of gray, which is why I can say with total confidence that the idea that we deserve some kind of unspeakable torment for ever and ever without any hope of reprieve, because God is full of wrath over our imperfect state is ridiculous, and frankly it sullies the concept of God, at least to me.
You are "gray" because you chose to be. Even as a child, you act selfishly, resulting in sin. You are not pure white because YOU CHOOSE not to be. That is your responsibility and yours alone. God demands a standard of perfection which no one will ever meet because all have sinned (notice it says all AHVE sinned, not all MUST sin). That means all, including you, have chosen to add black to the white paint, heat to absolute 0.
You deserve punishment as a result of your own actions, not because how you were created.
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I highly doubt there is such an over-simplified eternal bliss on the right, eternal misery on the left, awaiting us, if anything awaits us. But hey, if there is, God will do with me what he will, right?
Do you really want to live in the mentality of "whatever"? Do you really have enough faith in your beliefs to live this way? That's a huge risk to take.
Yes, He will do with you what He will, but only as a result of how you choose to live your life.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 8/23/2009 3:14:28 AM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
No one WILL....
No, they won't, because they can't. Even those for whom the spirit is willing, the flesh is still weak, right? And who could possibly even comprehend these things right off the bat, from day one? Humans are bound to make mistakes (sin) in their life. It. Is. Inevitable.
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Christians talk about how angry He is as a result of man's choice. You have a choice, and when you choose to disobey God, you reap the consequences.
God put a fruit in the garden that he knew Adam would eat, thus bringing about a fallen state for all of mankind in which it would be impossible for them to always make the correct moral choice, and then he gets angry about it? Not just a little angry, but eternal damnation angry. Forgive me if I don't buy it.
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We have no right to tell an almighty God what His qualifications for eternal life ought to be.
This happens at some point in discussions like this--to be clear, we are discussing propositions, and I'm expressing doubt in a proposition based on the reasons I've given. No, I'm not dictating anything to God. If I express doubt to my Mormon friend that God would command Joseph Smith to take other men's wives, and he said, "We have no right to tell God what he can and cannot do", it would be just as fruitful to the conversation.
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But it will not be WHITE. It will have missed the mark.
The mark huh? Here's a good assumption for you to examine: that humans, who simply cannot be perfect, are expected to be. Every moment of every day of their lives.
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It most certainly is possible with the leading of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:16)!
I doubt it. I don't know any perfect Christians. Luckily I don't expect that of them.
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With all due respect, this sounds to me like a feeble attempt at diminishing the severity and eternal consequences of you faults, hoping to convince yourself of your relative righteousness.
Not at all. I'm my worst critic, believe me. Perhaps you missed the part where I said I don't believe I deserve eternal paradise.
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Again, to what standard to you apply your "goodness"? If it is not God, what then? It is what you feel at a certain moment? Is it evolutionary natural selection that guides you morals? Survival of the fittest? Culture? The "norm" of the present? What distinguishes your "goodness" or "morality" as being any better than the next person's? What is the standard that you believe humanity ought to live by? Does each individual create their own standard? If so, what is their guideline(s)?
These are all very important questions you need to answer for yourself. Your answers might just open your eyes to the logical and philosophical absurdities of humanistic postmodernism.
I do think about these things, trust me. I don't think there are any pat answers. But even if there is a divine standard, it is still possible to be, and do, good, despite falling short of perfection.
Is there anybody that you trust? Respect? Admire? Appreciate? For me, the answer is yes on each of those, and these are not perfect people. For anyone who can answer yes to those, that is a good indication of the ability to see "good" even if subjectively.
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You are "gray" because you chose to be. Even as a child, you act selfishly, resulting in sin. You are not pure white because YOU CHOOSE not to be. That is your responsibility and yours alone. God demands a standard of perfection which no one will ever meet because all have sinned (notice it says all AHVE sinned, not all MUST sin). That means all, including you, have chosen to add black to the white paint, heat to absolute 0.
Well, perhaps you need to hang on to the idea that, theoretically, any person COULD live a perfect, sin-free life. That's good. It suggests that if you acknowledged that imperfection were impossible to avoid, you would see where I'm coming from. You would appreciate the absurdity of the Almighty demanding perfection when he knows full well it isn't humanly possible, AND THEN being filled with wrath and casting people off to eternal misery when they aren't!
I hope everyone tries to be better every day, but I'm under no illusion that "perfection" will be attained.
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You deserve punishment as a result of your own actions, not because how you were created.
It's interesting that Christianity is so sensitive about he idea of "works", as in "good works", but it has no problem focusing on the bad works. It seems imbalanced.
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Do you really want to live in the mentality of "whatever"? Do you really have enough faith in your beliefs to live this way? That's a huge risk to take.
I do my best and have long ago learned to disregard the coercive statements.
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Yes, He will do with you what He will, but only as a result of how you choose to live your life.
Fair enough, that's in line with my original post on this thread.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 8/23/2009 1:57:05 PM
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evry1needsgod
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No, they won't, because they can't.
The Bible says all HAVE, not all MUST.
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Even those for whom the spirit is willing, the flesh is still weak, right?
Do you see your own word choice? Might I emphasize the word"WEAK"
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Humans are bound to make mistakes (sin) in their life. It. Is. Inevitable.
Yes, they are bound to make mistakes. It is inevitable, because all HAVE sinned, not all MUST sin.
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God put a fruit in the garden that he knew Adam would eat, thus bringing about a fallen state for all of mankind in which it would be impossible for them to always make the correct moral choice, and then he gets angry about it? Not just a little angry, but eternal damnation angry. Forgive me if I don't buy it.
It doesn't matter whether or not I personally forgive you. You ought to be concerned about what God thinks, not Christians. You better be sure you're right! It's going to take a major leap of faith on your part, my friend.
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This happens at some point in discussions like this--to be clear, we are discussing propositions, and I'm expressing doubt in a proposition based on the reasons I've given. No, I'm not dictating anything to God. If I express doubt to my Mormon friend that God would command Joseph Smith to take other men's wives, and he said, "We have no right to tell God what he can and cannot do", it would be just as fruitful to the conversation.
I understand what you're saying. My statement is by no intelligent measurement solid proof of my POV.
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The mark huh? Here's a good assumption for you to examine: that humans, who simply cannot be perfect, are expected to be. Every moment of every day of their lives.
They WILL NOT be! God expects us to be perfect, even though no one WILL BE perfect. Why? Because everyone will CHOOSE not to be. Therefore, it is YOUR responsibility and yours alone when you miss the mark, because YOU chose. Therefore, the subsequent consequences are justified by your actions.
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I doubt it. I don't know any perfect Christians. Luckily I don't expect that of them.
You doubt it? Do you know every Christian that has ever walked the earth? Likeliness does not equate (im)possibility.
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I do think about these things, trust me. I don't think there are any pat answers. But even if there is a divine standard, it is still possible to be, and do, good, despite falling short of perfection.
I never said it was impossible to do something "good". But what does that merit you compared to a God who's standard is spotlessness?
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Is there anybody that you trust? Respect? Admire? Appreciate? For me, the answer is yes on each of those, and these are not perfect people. For anyone who can answer yes to those, that is a good indication of the ability to see "good" even if subjectively.
Sure! Of course! Socially, one can choose to do a good deed such as giving to the poor. But spiritually, their soul is black. Why? Because one single choice of theirs to do wrong has blackened their heart. Although their life may be relatively good (they haven't murdered, raped, cheated on their taxes, had an affair etc) socially speaking, the one single choice they made has missed the mark of a perfect standard.
In this case, it's black and white. There is no relative gray area.
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Well, perhaps you need to hang on to the idea that, theoretically, any person COULD live a perfect, sin-free life. That's good. It suggests that if you acknowledged that imperfection were impossible to avoid, you would see where I'm coming from. You would appreciate the absurdity of the Almighty demanding perfection when he knows full well it isn't humanly possible, AND THEN being filled with wrath and casting people off to eternal misery when they aren't!
I hope everyone tries to be better every day, but I'm under no illusion that "perfection" will be attained.
I don't believe it will ever be obtained either! Why? Because "all have sinned". Why? Because all have chosen sin. Why is God angry? Because He gave us a choice, and we chose wrong ONCE.
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It's interesting that Christianity is so sensitive about he idea of "works", as in "good works", but it has no problem focusing on the bad works. It seems imbalanced.
What do good works merit you if you have not placed your trust in Christ? Scripture tells you that you must place your trust in Christ to be resolved of the evil you have chosen to commit throughout your life. You could live the most righteous life the world has EVER seen, but if you have not given control of your life to God's Son, your righteousnesses will do NOTHING for you other than relieve you guilty conscience and help you die in a false bliss.
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I do my best and have long ago learned to disregard the coercive statements.
I don't believe you have, my friend. I don't believe you would not be here if you had completely seared the truth of Christ from your heart described in the first chapter of John.
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Fair enough, that's in line with my original post on this thread.
I hope you can live with that thought.
In Christ,
ZG
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 8/23/2009 8:42:13 PM
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abraxas
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Well, I think we're doing as much talking past each other as actually communicating--hard to avoid when at the root we hold such differing assumptions. Not entirely fruitless, though--thanks for the discussion, ZG.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 8/23/2009 9:28:37 PM
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Doghouse
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quote:
I promise you, that if I paint my house with a bucket of white paint with a drop of black in there, it's still going to come across as white. But the thing about humans is we're not a bucket of pure white paint, and it is IMPOSSIBLE FOR US TO BE "PURE WHITE". At least as we develop cognitively and start making ethical choices. We're inevitably shades of gray, which is why I can say with total confidence that the idea that we deserve some kind of unspeakable torment for ever and ever without any hope of reprieve, because God is full of wrath over our imperfect state is ridiculous, and frankly it sullies the concept of God, at least to me.
...not to hijack the thread, but I agree with you...
You should look into this thread for the way different Christians deal with the answer to your question about the white paint with a couple of drops of black in it (great analogy, by the way...)
I put "other" because I didn't see the correct answer up there, in my opinion. Salvation is a process in which we participate during our lives, and can be continued after it, to a certain degree. Paul instructs us as to what to expect in 1 Cor 3. We cannot come to faith after our death but if we possessed it during our lives, God can deal with the drops (or cupfuls) of black paint in our white paint. We stand before God in humility and in hope and trust His mercy and His just judgment on the state of our souls. This is one of the pillars of faith - that God is love, and God is justice.
By the way - Jesus operated the same type of body and being that your soul occupies to perfection, and we know that subordinating ourselves to God's grace can result in perfection within our "human-ness". It can be done - it's just a challenge, judging by the evidence.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 8/23/2009 9:37:36 PM >
_____________________________
The dog regularly reads Atlantic Monthly
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 8/23/2009 11:08:20 PM
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drmark
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quote:
By the way - Jesus operated the same type of body and being that your soul occupies to perfection, and we know that subordinating ourselves to God's grace can result in perfection within our "human-ness". It can be done - it's just a challenge, judging by the evidence. Close doghouse, but may I make a minor correction. When we subordinate our entire being to God's Will by His grace and power, then the result is indeed Christlike perfection within our "human-ness". It not only can be done, it is being done now and will be done as long as Jesus tarries by those who seek, accept, and use the sanctifying grace of the infilling Holy Spirit!
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 8/24/2009 9:20:42 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
Well, I think we're doing as much talking past each other as actually communicating--hard to avoid when at the root we hold such differing assumptions. Not entirely fruitless, though--thanks for the discussion, ZG.
I did not mean to talk past you, my friend. Actually, my intentions were to talk directly TO you.
I'll simply leave you with this. My assumption, though founded and reinforced with Scripture, is partially based on logic and philosophy--the truth that absolute truth must exist. If you believe that truth is relative, and you believe that to be truth, then the truth that you believe can not literally be truth, for your belief can not logically, intellectually, or philosophically allow you to hold the assumption that truth is relative!
I know that's a mouth full and perhaps a bit hard to understand; but reality simply demands absolute truth. An absolute standard must logically and literally exist. Post-modernism simply defies all "laws of mentality", as I like to call it.
And through my years of studying, I have found absolute truth in God and God alone. Although many secularists believe that placing one's trust in God is "insane" or "unintellectual", it is actually the most intelligent decision any sane individual could make.
May the Lord be with you, my friend.
In Christ,
ZG
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 8/25/2009 1:48:34 AM
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abraxas
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I know you don't mean to. One example is your claim that I said I was a "bad person" when in fact you were reading into what I did say. Also, in post 28 I said, "Even if there is an Absolute Standard, that's fine--I know I don't match up to it perfectly, but that's just it. No one can."
In other words, I don't find it relevant to this discussion if there is in fact an "absolute standard", and I've said we can presume for this discussion that there is, and yet you keep trying to demonstrate how there is. As if that's what I'm arguing against. I'm not going to reiterate.
By the way, you do realize that to be "perfect", not only must one have "absolute" control over one's will power, one must also have "absolute" knowledge of the absolute. Not just a belief that it exists. What exactly is God's will regarding the parents who let their diabetic daughter die, or other "faith-healer" parents with sick children? What is God's will regarding the 12-year-old who murdered a woman? What about bikinis, drinking wine, treatment of livestock, the environment, health care policy, and so on? Why in the OT was slavery regulated but not outlawed like, say, working on the sabbath? And why is it outlawed today? I've actually heard "cultural/ historical relativism" given as an explanation for that!
It's not lost on me that Christians who claim guidance of the Holy Spirit fall on different sides in these issues.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 8/28/2009 12:04:05 AM
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cricrazy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: silverkid
Thou knowest Lord?
Just like Peter answered Jesus. ""Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep." - John 21:17
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2 Cor 12:9 - "My Grace is sufficient for you, for my strength is made perfect in your weakness."
INDUCTIVE BIBLE STUDIES
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 8/28/2009 12:53:38 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
I don't "deserve" eternal paradise, nor do I "deserve" eternal misery. Actually EVERYONE deserves eternal misery.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 8/28/2009 1:32:24 PM
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abraxas
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Well I've already stated that I disagree and that I consider the idea ridiculous enough to numb the mind, and I've stated my reasons. Those baby girls sitting in your laps certainly don't deserve any such thing. Unless you have something new to add to what's already been said, there's probably no point in continuing.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 8/31/2009 7:40:10 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
Those baby girls sitting in your laps certainly don't deserve any such thing. That is an entirely emotional viewpoint which has nothing to do with biblical truth. The plain truth of scripture is that all have sinned and fall short of God's glory. (Rom 3) Unless you are born Jewish, you are born on that wild olive tree of the world, and need to (by faith) be cut from that tree and grafted into the cultivated olive tree of the redeemed community. (Rom 11)
My daughter and son-in-law are doing a fine job of raising them in the faith, and I have little doubt that they will continue on as they grow. But does not mean that in and of themselves they DESERVE anything other than hell, as do we all.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 8/31/2009 10:19:16 AM
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abraxas
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If I say that a jaywalker doesn't deserve a $50,000 fine, is that an entirely emotional viewpoint? I don't believe a shoplifter deserves to have his hands chopped off--am I being entirely emotional to say that?
I don't know why it is that "all fall short of the glory of God" is such a commonly-used argument, when it simply does not follow logically from that obvious fact (that no one would deny), that we "deserve" eternal torture. We don't match up to PERFECTION. Duh! Of course we don't! And? We never had a snowflake's chance in hell of being PERFECT. Excuse the pun.  How can something inevitable and unavoidable be so grievous a crime? Answer: it can't. No emotions here, just common sense.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 8/31/2009 11:44:39 AM
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DaveW
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Do you deny original sin?
Do you deny that we are lost and headed for hell without a savior?
Do you deny that God is just?
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 8/31/2009 12:19:52 PM
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abraxas
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1. I'm not a Christian in case you didn't pick up on that--but so what about original sin--guess what? I was born in 1969, I had no say in some individual's bad choice thousands of years ago--if it really did take place--I wasn't included in the decision, I wasn't there, in fact I didn't exist. "imputed guilt" is an oxymoron. Completely nonsensical. Show me a definition of guilt that doesn't imply an act committed. That's what people are guilty of--acts. Their own.
2/3. I've already asserted on this thread that no one is deserving of either eternal bliss or eternal torture--so do I belive God is just? Well as an, um, "agno-deist" or whatever I am, that's not easy to answer, but what is easy to answer is that if there is God, and he tosses humans into hell and throws away the key forever (and I remember your comments on hell from a while back so I have an idea just how horrid and unrelenting you consider the place), then no, God is not exactly just. And I recognize that that may be the case--God Almighty could in fact be a really rotten being. --shudder-- One can hope not.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 9/23/2009 2:17:25 PM
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Epistemological
Posts: 25
Joined: 6/14/2009
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"Because there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. You sent You Son, Jesus Christ, as an atoning sacrifice for the sins of Your chosen people. You have freed me from the chains of sin so that I might be a slave to righteousness. By Your grace and according to Your will I may enter the Kingdom. There is no other way."
_____________________________
"I know, Lord, why You utter no answer. You are Yourself the answer. Before Your face all questions die away; what other answers would suffice?" - C.S. Lewis, Till We Have Faces
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 9/29/2009 2:56:15 PM
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eschatologist
Posts: 54
Joined: 1/6/2008
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We are saved and in heaven because we have accepted Jesus as our Lord and Saviour and accepted His attonement and forgivness for our sins. But this is actually a mute question and is not something we should be asking each other. For one thing, when we get to heaven the Lord is going to recieve us with open arms and and welcome us into His kingdom as sons and daughters and fellow heirs with Christ of the Kingdom of God. He's not going to make us hesitate at the door of Heaven and ask us if we feel we deserve it or make us fill out a questionaire as if we were applying for government help or something.
The very moment we get saved on this earth by recieving Jesus and accepting His forgivness for our sins, is the moment we enter the kingdom of God. We are part of that kingdom forever, both, here on earth and in the afterlife. We do not deserve it nor are we worthy of it but because Jesus has washed away all our sins He has made us righteous and automatically translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son. The only thing that God looks at is the blood of Jesus and the blood washed soul. He won't be testing us at the door to heaven to see if we know whether or not we're really saved.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 9/29/2009 3:55:25 PM
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eschatologist
Posts: 54
Joined: 1/6/2008
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I'd like to put in my 2 cents worth regarding soem of the things that the self-professed non-christian, abraxas said. His ideas and theories are nothing new. They're the same things that the anti-christ wicked have been saying for thousands of years. His general idea seems to be "I may not be a perfect person, but I'm not a bad person either, therfore God is bad and mean for punishing me just because I'm not perfect and make mistakes."
First of all, for those who don't know it yet, God expects perfection. The only way to deserve to go to heaven is by being perfect, which of course, no one ever will be or can be in and of and by themselves. Here are some verses to prove that God expects perfection:
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48
To the woman taken in adultery, "Neither do I condemn thee. Go, and sin no more." John 8:11. (In telling her to sin no more, He is telling her to be perfect.)
"And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness." Collossians 3:14
Now since we know that nobody can be perfect and yet God asks perfection of us how do we reconcile these two seeming contradictions? What is the link? And of course, everybody who knows Jesus knows what the link is: "there is one God, and one mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus."
We become perfect by recieving Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, because He cleanses us from all our sins. ""And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sin and in Himis no sin." IJohn 3:5
"If we say that we have no sin, we decieve ourselves and the truth is not in us." IJohn 1:8 If you are an imperfect sinner then you are not good. The self-righteous people think that just because they are not murderers, rapists, etc. and guilty of the very worst crimes then they are basically good. But this is a false assumption. Nobody is good, Nobody deserves to go to heaven no matter how good they try to be. The carnally minded people have a hard time understanding this concept, that the people who make a few mistakes, aren't really malicious or purposly hurtful in their actions are just as evil and bad in God's eyes as the murderers, rapists, and etc.
So the only way to perfection is to recieve Jesus and have Him cleanse you from all your unrighteousness.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/5/2009 8:12:59 PM
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abraxas
Posts: 358
Joined: 4/8/2008
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Hi eschatologist,
You've done a great job of capsulating what others, especially everyoneneedsgod, have already shared here. You haven't, however, offered anything new to the conversation and I don't have the time to go back through the thread and pick out my responses, but they're there if you're interested.
I will leave it at this: If you, or everyoneneedsgod, or anyone else, is referring to "perfection" as a day-to-day, moment-to-moment, transformation--from an imperfect human to a "perfected" soul who no longer goes against God's will, then I will simply refer you to the many MANY debates amongsts Christians about just what God's will is exactly, on so many things like bikinis, alcohol, letting one's kids sleep over at non-believers' homes, gambling, seeking medical treatment, what to do with 12-year-old murderers, and so on and so forth. In other words, unless a person not only has PERFECT control over their will power, but ALSO has PERFECT understanding of God's will, then it is extremely unlikely that they will attain this sort of "perfection." Who here has that understanding? If you do, then PLEASE go to the morality/ethics forum and settle all the debates once and for all! Or everyoneneedsgod, is it you?
Now, if you're referring to an ongoing process that requires a regular "cleansing of all one's unrighteousness", then that's not perfection at all. That's a wonderful cleansing solution that you, imperfect though you are, happen to have access to because of your beliefs, which other imperfect souls don't have access to because of theirs. So, suddenly we're not talking about perfection at all, we're talking about a privilege that some IMPERFECT people enjoy that other IMPERFECT people don't.
So which is it, because when I think about it, I'm not really sure what you or anyone else means when they mention perfection, though ENG did challenge my suggestion that there were no perfect Christians. He/she asked in post 31, "Do you know every Christian that has ever walked the earth?" So maybe it's for ENG to answer the first response, as for you, which is it--constant perfection or regular cleansing?
ps--It's hard for me to believe that people will make this assertion about God--that he, while knowing full well that humans are guaranteed to be imperfect in their lives, would "expect" perfection of us, and be angry when we aren't. It makes God out as some sort of buffoon.
< Message edited by abraxas -- 10/5/2009 8:21:41 PM >
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/5/2009 10:24:23 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1760
Joined: 2/4/2008
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quote:
I will leave it at this: If you, or everyoneneedsgod, or anyone else, is referring to "perfection" as a day-to-day, moment-to-moment, transformation--from an imperfect human to a "perfected" soul who no longer goes against God's will, then I will simply refer you to the many MANY debates amongsts Christians about just what God's will is exactly, on so many things like bikinis, alcohol, letting one's kids sleep over at non-believers' homes, gambling, seeking medical treatment, what to do with 12-year-old murderers, and so on and so forth. In other words, unless a person not only has PERFECT control over their will power, but ALSO has PERFECT understanding of God's will, then it is extremely unlikely that they will attain this sort of "perfection." Who here has that understanding? If you do, then PLEASE go to the morality/ethics forum and settle all the debates once and for all! Or everyoneneedsgod, is it you?
Is it me? I can only pray and ask the Lord to help me moment by moment.
I spoke briefly with you here because I could sense the Calvinistic tone in your words. You've fallen prey to one of the most atrocious doctrines Christianity has ever seen. And you, an unbeliever, was even capable of sensing the illogical and erroneous implications of this doctrine. God's foreknowledge, God's predestination, man's fallen sin nature and to what extent it influences us, etc.....and you understand the horrible implications of such a sadistic doctrine, and you believed them.
I simply showed you the truth, my friend. God is not the author of sin, nor does He create you incapable of accepting Christ! You are accountable because Christ died for EVERY SINGLE individual on this planet. You are accountable because EVERY SINGLE individual, yourself included, has the intuitive knowledge of God's existence. As a result, the Holy Spirit convicts you with this knowledge, and your refusal to accept Him renders you incapable of perfection. You and you alone are the reason you are imperfect. Your incapability is self-inflicted at the point where you chose to horde your sin nature and throw Christ in the trash.
But there's hope for the Christian, my friend. The entire 6th chapter of Romans with an emphasis on Galatians 5:16 shows us the clear truth that not only is the Christian dead and separated from sin, and not only does sin no longer reign in our bodies, but more importantly we have access to the Holy Spirit whereby Who's leading we no longer have to sin. It is now possible for me, an infinitely joyful individual for being completely Christ's, to live a perfectly sinless life. Will it happen? Idk....Paul, immediately after writing Romans 6, speaks of the battles he continues to face in Romans 7. However, since he acquiesced to the drawing knowledge of God's existence, he possess power that the unbeliever has rejected. Paul can be perfect because he's chosen to accept the free gift of salvation. Do you claim this gift? Do you want it?
So, is it me? Is it YOU? Does the God whom you intuitively know exists desire for it to be YOU?
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/5/2009 10:32:10 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1760
Joined: 2/4/2008
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quote:
ps--It's hard for me to believe that people will make this assertion about God--that he, while knowing full well that humans are guaranteed to be imperfect in their lives, would "expect" perfection of us, and be angry when we aren't. It makes God out as some sort of buffoon.
AMEN!!!!!! You are 100%, completely and totally correct in this assertion, and if this is all that's been holding you back, there's hope!
There's a lot of debate concerning God's foreknowledge. I suggest you find a few books written by conservative, non-reformed authors on this subject. As drmark states time and time again, predestination does not equal predetermination. God's foreknowledge has no affect on your choices or free-will. Until you realize this simple fact, God will always be a buffoon to you.
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/6/2009 12:58:16 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 358
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
It is now possible for me, an infinitely joyful individual for being completely Christ's, to live a perfectly sinless life. Will it happen? Idk....Paul, immediately after writing Romans 6, speaks of the battles he continues to face in Romans 7.
Ah. So now your position is that it's "possible" for you to live a perfectly sinless life, although you don't know if it will happen and apparently didn't happen for Paul either. So we're left with a non-disprovable assertion.
drmark can keep saying predestination =/= predetermination till he's blue-faced, it doesn't mean he's right, it just means he manages to avoid fully comprehending the implications of absolute future knowledge. Which is very pragmatic of him.
quote:
quote:
ps--It's hard for me to believe that people will make this assertion about God--that he, while knowing full well that humans are guaranteed to be imperfect in their lives, would "expect" perfection of us, and be angry when we aren't. It makes God out as some sort of buffoon. AMEN!!!!!! You are 100%, completely and totally correct in this assertion, and if this is all that's been holding you back, there's hope!
And yet a few posts back that's the very assertion you made. "Why is God angry? Because He gave us a choice, and we chose wrong ONCE."
He must be so angry that we chose wrong, despite that pesky little matter that it is IMPOSSIBLE for humans to always make the "right choice"! Like I said, hard for me to believe.
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