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Ah. So now your position is that it's "possible" for you to live a perfectly sinless life, although you don't know if it will happen and apparently didn't happen for Paul either.

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drmark can keep saying predestination =/= predetermination till he's blue-faced, it doesn't mean he's right, it just means he manages to avoid fully comprehending the implications of absolute future knowledge.

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And yet a few posts back that's the very assertion you made. "Why is God angry? Because He gave us a choice, and we chose wrong ONCE."

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He must be so angry that we chose wrong, despite that pesky little matter that it is IMPOSSIBLE for humans to always make the "right choice"! Like I said, hard for me to believe.

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ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
Um, that's always been my position, my friend. I created a thread a while ago that reached upwards to 60 pages within weeks that discussed how it is indeed possible for the Christian to live a sinless life from this point forward.

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He speaks truth, my friend.

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Let's say you invent a time machine and go back in time to a murder that you know will happen. There you are, at the scene, and you know each and every detail of the situation for the next few moments. Does your knowledge of what will happen negate the free-will of the murderer? Does your foreknowledge of the weather conditions of that day make you responsible for it raining that day? Whether or not you were there at the time of the murder, does anything inherently change? Of course not!

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The murder still has the choice; he can still choose not to shoot the individual.

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And yet a few posts back that's the very assertion you made. "Why is God angry? Because He gave us a choice, and we chose wrong ONCE."

I don't see how this has anything to do with the statement you made. You called God a baffoon for expecting us to be something that is impossible for us to be.

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Who said it was impossible, abraxas?

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The joy that follows is ineffable, my friend. The battles against every day lustful desires seem to be so much easier to fight! No longer must you live in defeat of dirty filth. The love from Someone who cares is beyond comparison to any earthly love one can experience, and I'm not just regurgitating warm and fuzzy saying I've read from a book.

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You will never understand what it means to please God, what it means to live a moment without the burden of sin weighing you down, what it means to defeat spiritual darkness and depression that you know exists, what it means to overcome the un-Biblical doom you feel from God, until you let Christ do what He's really talented at--leading.

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The Apostle John also said those who say they know Him and keep not His Commandments are liars and the truth is not in them!

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So you say it's possible, but no examples forthcoming?

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Self-control aside, how does one live a sinful life if they don't have perfect knowledge of God's will? This is the third or fourth time I'm pointed this out. So is it you who is going to settle all the many debates amongst Christians on this very site about what is or isn't "sin"? I'm sure everyone will be so relieved!

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The past is different than the future. I have an analogy of my own, but first I'll address yours. If you in the past, and what is done is done, the murderer has already acted on his own free will, if in fact he possessed it in his own present time. (Let's assume he does.) However, when watching this past event we are seeing what has already happened, and so we know that it is guaranteed to play out a certain way.

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The question is, Is the future already set in stone the way the past is? If it is, then our free will is an illusion, when in reality the only "freedom" we have is to make exactly the choices that are already written in stone. So let's say that God writes a book detailing every thought, every action, of my entire life. Then, he gives me the book to read. It says--and remember this is infallible, divine, foreknowledge--that on Wednesday, October 7, 2009, I will have a banana for breakfast. Can I, after reading that, change my mind? If I can, then the book is not infallible. But what, do we really suppose that somehow I'll be forced to eat a banana even if I choose not to? The fact that it is SO problematic to imagine this book and the ramifications of reading it is the key difference between the past and the future, my friend.

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Actually no, as I have pointed out, he has already made his choice, you're only watching a past event.

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First of all, I did not call God a buffoon. There you go again, putting words in my mouth. I said a certain theological doctrine makes God out to be a buffoon.

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So...God "gave us a choice, and we chose wrong ONCE", and despite the fact that humans are incapable of living their entire lives making the RIGHT choice (people can't even always agree on what the RIGHT choice is--and that includes Christians, remember?), this is what God is so angry about? This is why he'll cast so many off to hell? Yes, I think your statement has everything to do with the statement I made.

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Come on now. from birth to death? You were the one who said that Paul mentions his own continued struggles with imperfections.

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Maybe not, maybe you're projecting though--I don't lead a miserable filthy life enslaved to whatever "lustful desires" you have in mind.

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I've said before I'm not perfect and that's the truth. But if you think because I'm not Christian that nothing I do could please God, then God is the one with the problem. I don't do them to please God, but I'm perfectly okay with the idea that if there is a God, and God is good, then some of the things I do please God.

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So you say it's possible, but no examples forthcoming?

The only example possible for me to give would be myself, because I do not know the lives of anyone else. And I can say from experience that it is most certainly possible to live a prolonged period of time without a single sin. I can speak for no other.

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Self-control aside, how does one live a sinful life if they don't have perfect knowledge of God's will? This is the third or fourth time I'm pointed this out. So is it you who is going to settle all the many debates amongst Christians on this very site about what is or isn't "sin"? I'm sure everyone will be so relieved!

No I will never convince everyone of my opinion.

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But I can as you a question though.

Do you think that a loving ans just God can hold you accountable for that which He's chosen not to reveal to you? This would not be within God's nature to do so, my friend. Any sin you commit that you are accountable for you had full knowledge, wheter intuitively or otherwise, that it was wrong, and you chose wrong anyways.

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The past is different than the future. I have an analogy of my own, but first I'll address yours. If you in the past, and what is done is done, the murderer has already acted on his own free will, if in fact he possessed it in his own present time. (Let's assume he does.) However, when watching this past event we are seeing what has already happened, and so we know that it is guaranteed to play out a certain way.

Yes indeed it is fact that it will play out a certain way. Absolutely. But this does not negate the murderer's free-will. Not a SINGLE aspect changed when You went back in time. Nothing changed, so unless you believe that the murderer never had free-will, and that the murder can never be accountable for his action in the first place, then you must conclude the same even though you possess the foreknowledge of the event. NOTHING CHANGED.

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The question is, Is the future already set in stone the way the past is? If it is, then our free will is an illusion, when in reality the only "freedom" we have is to make exactly the choices that are already written in stone. So let's say that God writes a book detailing every thought, every action, of my entire life. Then, he gives me the book to read. It says--and remember this is infallible, divine, foreknowledge--that on Wednesday, October 7, 2009, I will have a banana for breakfast. Can I, after reading that, change my mind? If I can, then the book is not infallible. But what, do we really suppose that somehow I'll be forced to eat a banana even if I choose not to? The fact that it is SO problematic to imagine this book and the ramifications of reading it is the key difference between the past and the future, my friend.

But this is ridiculous because God does not tell you the choices you will make!

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So...God "gave us a choice, and we chose wrong ONCE", and despite the fact that humans are incapable of living their entire lives making the RIGHT choice (people can't even always agree on what the RIGHT choice is--and that includes Christians, remember?), this is what God is so angry about? This is why he'll cast so many off to hell? Yes, I think your statement has everything to do with the statement I made.

How many times must I tell you that it IS possible! By the grace and shed blood of Christ it is possible! And that grace is offered to everyone, including you. Your rejection is what makes you incapable, not some inherent inability.

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Maybe not, maybe you're projecting though--I don't lead a miserable filthy life enslaved to whatever "lustful desires" you have in mind.

And yet you still have a burned, a desire, an emptiness....a hope. A hope that one day truth, whatever that may be, will free you of the chains that you know exist, however minuscule you believe them to me, that you try to ignore at all costs.

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What could possibly be pleasing to God from one who rejects His ultimate will and desire for your life? If I ask my son to take out the garbage, but he hates taking out the garbage and instead washeds the dishes, vaccuums the house, cleans the car, paints the house, and multitude of other chores....am I pleased? Absoutely not, because my son is not obeying me. Although all those other chores are quite noble in deed, not a single one makes me smile. The more he ignores me, the more tears flood my eyes.

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And now we have digressed to "a prolonged period of time without a single sin."

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When it comes to absolute knowledge of God's will, there's no room for mere opinion!

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1. You're using the assumption that we ARE responsible for all of our sins to show how we "must have full knowledge, whether intuitively or otherwise"--though as you have demonstrated by your own admission that you, nor anyone else, is capable of having that full knowledge.

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2. I already said I understood that we choose wrong, even when we do believe it is wrong. It is just not in our nature to always--ALWAYS--follow our best judgement. So why do you keep pressing that point?

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You're creating a hypothetical scenario that I am not obligated to accept--that God is able to exist in our future the way we exist in that persons. I would say that when that person was committing the murder, and in all the steps and choices leading up to it, we did not yet exist, at least not in our future forms.

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It's ridiculous that in order for this idea to work, God CAN'T tell us the choices we will make. I mean really, it's simple. There's the book. My life is all written down. God gives it to me. I have a look. Is my free will capable of superceding something written in my book? If so, the book (ergo God's divine foreknowledge) is fallible; if not, then I don't truly have free will.

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So what makes you incapable. Long periods of time notwithstanding.

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Oh man, that really hit me. You really wouldn't be okay with that? I mean it's not like your son said NO and kept playing Wii. Geez, it sounds like he REALLY has something against taking out the garbage! Go easy on the poor guy! There's a guy on youtube dressed like a ninja that satirizes Christianity, and I promise you he could do it, verbatim, with your last comment!

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And now we have digressed to "a prolonged period of time without a single sin."

Well what do you want me to say, abraxas? That I've lived my entire life without sin??? Well I haven't, because "all have sinned".

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When it comes to absolute knowledge of God's will, there's no room for mere opinion!

And God will reveal what He wants to reveal to you, and you are responsible for what He's chosen to tell you.

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Right now, His only will for your life is that you repent. He is not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance. That's really all you need to be worried about.

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1. You're using the assumption that we ARE responsible for all of our sins to show how we "must have full knowledge, whether intuitively or otherwise"--though as you have demonstrated by your own admission that you, nor anyone else, is capable of having that full knowledge.

Um, ya, I'm under the assumption that we are responsible for our wrong doing. I think that's a pretty obvious truth. Even non-believers hold to this assumption.

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2. I already said I understood that we choose wrong, even when we do believe it is wrong. It is just not in our nature to always--ALWAYS--follow our best judgement. So why do you keep pressing that point?

I don't know what point you are talking about.

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You're creating a hypothetical scenario that I am not obligated to accept--that God is able to exist in our future the way we exist in that persons. I would say that when that person was committing the murder, and in all the steps and choices leading up to it, we did not yet exist, at least not in our future forms.

You're being WAY too specific, abraxas. The analogy was meant ONLY to give you the foreknowledge and to place you at the time of an event. That's it. That's all, nothing added. The analogy is no different than God in that both you and God had the knowledge of what would happen, and both you and God were there when it happened.

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God was there 1000 years ago with the knowledge of what would happen also, so in those aspects, the analogy works. The simple point that I was making is that NOTHING CHANGED because you have the knowledge of what will happen. That's all, and you can't find a reasonable argument to counter that either, other than trying to add to the analogy that which I never included.

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We started out talking about perfection. That God expects it. You defend the idea that God is so angry about our sin, and now you say this?

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And that's perfection?

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If by repent you mean,

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But you just said that we're only responsible for what God has chosen to tell us. So we are only responsible for those wrong-doings, right?

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The point that everyone makes wrong choices.

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Well, time travel and space bending is confusing stuff and I admit I didn't pay good attention in college.

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My analogy was just to show that something could change, if the actual agent had that knowledge.

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Sorry, gotta cut this short--bedtime. ENG, we all need to be saved. From ourselves, by ourselves.

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I'm dancing in circles here.

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ORIGINAL: abraxas
If by repent you mean,

1. To feel remorse, contrition, or self-reproach for what one has done or failed to do; be contrite.
2. To feel such regret for past conduct as to change one's mind regarding it: repented of intemperate behavior.
3. To make a change for the better as a result of remorse or contrition for one's sins.

link

-then yes, I have and I do. Thanks ENG

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ORIGINAL:ABRAXAS:
drmark can keep saying predestination =/= predetermination till he's blue-faced, it doesn't mean he's right, it just means he manages to avoid fully comprehending the implications of absolute future knowledge.

evry1needsgod: He speaks truth, my friend.

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There is no way an omniscient, omnipotent God can predestine without predetermining.

The implications of future knowledge are dire so they deny it.

This is a biblically crippled view of God, and yes, a very pragmatic view —
after all, its necessary to maintain the exaltation of man's will over God's will

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We all want to think we have the power to determine our fate, don't we?

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ORIGINAL: drmark
This is classic man-made Calvinist doctrine, designed to maintain
God's sovereignty at all costs

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I'll let that speak for itself.

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ORIGINAL: drmark

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I'll let that speak for itself.

Just like John 10:10 speaks for itself! I'm truly sorry that you do not seem to understand the blessing of "life more abundantly", rwe.

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ORIGINAL: drmark

Abundance of His grace to make my own choices, rwe, and abundance of His power to make them the right choices. All for the glory of God! Praise His name! Hallelujah!

(Sorry, I got a little carried away there...)

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ORIGINAL: abraxas

Haha...you guys...

ENG, I had a working definition long before I knew about Websters. Common sense is an odd thing--it's difficult to invoke in an argument, but somehow it still seems to be one's personal bottom line. It's hard to go against one's own common sense when viewing things.

So you believe that belief is a choice. Well, last time I asked drmark why he chose to believe what he believes, he said he chose it "because it's the truth." Which is, clearly, a text-book case of circular reasoning.

Rather than turn this into another Calv-Arm debate, and get it closed, why not look more closely at the role of choice in belief?

Why did you choose to believe what you believe?

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ORIGINAL: abraxas

Haha, yeah the C/A debate is like Savior Faire (He's EVERYWHERE!)

So why did you choose to believe that there is such thing as a Holy Spirit? Why didn't you choose to believe in a more Hindu or Buddhist worldview?

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ORIGINAL: abraxas

You chose because you chose. Okay.... Well then you are in no position to make any claims as to what is actually true.