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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Opening Post).
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[Poll]
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A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Opening Post).
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| Because I'm a good person. |
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| Because I've been baptized. |
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| Because of my works and faith. |
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| Because I've repented of my sins and accepted Christ as Lord. |
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| Because everyone goes to Heaven. |
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| Because of the Sacraments. |
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| Because of my works. |
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| Other (please specify). |
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Total Votes : 54
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(last vote on : 11/13/2009 11:09:25 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/13/2009 8:48:06 PM
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abraxas
Posts: 358
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If you thought it to be true, then you already believed it; therefore you didn't choose to believe it. Get it?
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/14/2009 3:54:23 AM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1760
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
If you thought it to be true, then you already believed it; therefore you didn't choose to believe it. Get it?
No, I don't get it at all.
I wasn't born a believer, and there were certainly times that I rejected, meaning I did not believe it for my entire life. There was a time when I chose to believe the truth.
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/14/2009 8:06:21 AM
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abraxas
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Well, first you said, "I chose because I chose", which is a meaningless tautology.
You also said, "I chose because I believed it to be the best choice to make, and indeed it was!" Which just pushes the same question back one step--Did you choose to believe it to be the best choice? If so, why?
And you said, "I chose because I had the knowledge and ability required to accept, and I could choose to leave sin and its burdens behind for a life devoted to the Lord, or I could choose to indulge myself further into the path I was walking."
In this statement there is a mix-up of the idea of 'choice'. In the latter half, the act of choice is clear--you choose either to devote to something, or continue doing what you were doing. Those are actions. In the first half, however, you state that you chose to believe something because you had KNOWLEDGE--so FIRST you knew it to be true, and THEN you chose to believe it??? Think about what you're saying.
So when you ask, "You don't think that I chose what I thought to be true?" I say, No, I don't believe that you chose to believe something that you already "thought to be true". You've put the cart before the horse.
I'm not sure how else to put it ENG, but your own words indicate that your belief preceeded your "choice" to believe.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/14/2009 8:08:19 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2807
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
You chose because you chose. Okay.... Well then you are in no position to
make any claims as to what is actually true.
I don't mean to but into your dialogue, but .......Touche, Abraxas!!
I've tried to show him free will is not a force affecting his choice.
He wants to think lost men are in the driver's seat....
and they are......of a car plunging of a cliff!!
Here's what's behind our choices: We do what we want to do.
We choose what we want to choose.
We make choices according to our nature.
Make any sense?
Everyone needs God, sure, but does everyone want God?
No. Scripture is clear: Man will NEVER, NEVER, NEVER choose Christ on his own ability.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/14/2009 8:10:22 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2807
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quote:
I'm not sure how else to put it ENG, but your own words indicate
that your belief preceeded your "choice" to believe.
 You put it very well!
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/14/2009 9:16:07 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 358
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quote:
Scripture is clear: Man will NEVER, NEVER, NEVER choose Christ on his own ability.
Perhaps, rwe. But I completely understand why an Arminian would express repugnance toward that position.
btw--as one who chooses to act as though we truly have some level of freedom in our acts (I really don't know for certain), I suspect there is some relationship between our freedom to make choices and our beliefs. I'm just not certain what it is exactly, but for sure it's not as simple as choosing to lie or not to lie, what kind of car to buy, or which college to go to.
< Message edited by abraxas -- 10/14/2009 9:23:45 AM >
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/14/2009 9:55:40 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2807
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
Perhaps, rwe. But I completely understand why an Arminian would
express repugnance toward that position.
Oh sure. Mostly because it offends a man's view of himself
and the God he has created in his mind. 
Sorry for the sarcasm but I believe this is the major error of
free will theology. It cannot acknowledge the total sovereignty of
God because it will diminish man's ability.
quote:
btw--as one who chooses to act as though we truly have some level
of freedom in our acts (I really don't know for certain), I suspect there is
some relationship between our freedom to make choices and our beliefs.
Absolutely.
But you also have to factor in the relationship between our nature or
our preferences and our choices.
quote:
I'm just not certain what it is exactly, but for sure it's not as simple
as choosing to lie or not to lie, what kind of car to buy, or which college to go to Again, absolutely.
We are talking about more than intellectual ability or mental assent when it
comes to repentance and faith. I'm sure you probably already know that.
The problem is the natural mind of man is incapable of believing something as
far-fetched or irrational as "Jesus the son of God, sin atoned on the cross,
this Jesus rose from the dead on the third day".
You're right, it isn't simply a choice to believe or not to believe.
Think about it. Choices are made according to our nature. By nature
I don't mean just emotions, preferences or personality. I am including
our spiritual condition, which in the case of an unconverted person,
is darkened, separated and in conflict with God.
This is the basic premise: An unconverted person's nature is so affected
by the Fall that he is incapable of choosing Christ on his own.
There is ample Scriptural evidence this is true, and the presupposition
is that people need convicting, not convincing in order to repent and believe.
BTW, repenting and believing are two sides of the same coin. When we repent
we are repenting "from" something as well as "to" someone (God), so believing
and repenting are actually very, very similar things.
I have submitted to this truth. It has guided me to a truth: man is
helpless and hopeless to save himself.
That is also why I say it takes more than what is in man to believe.
That's why I say man will never, ever believe without a work of God
in transforming his mind and heart which enables his will
to make a choice against his nature.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/14/2009 10:11:47 PM
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abraxas
Posts: 358
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quote:
Oh sure. Mostly because it offends a man's view of himself
and the God he has created in his mind.
Sorry for the sarcasm but I believe this is the major error of
free will theology. It cannot acknowledge the total sovereignty of
God because it will diminish man's ability.
I don't think that's quite it. In your scenario, God has created sentient beings who have absolutely no choice but to suffer and burn for all eternity. God and only God can "choose" them, but for some reason he chooses not to. Knowing full well what their eternity has in store for them. I don't think it unreasonable to take it on faith that God is better than that.
quote:
Absolutely.
But you also have to factor in the relationship between our nature or
our preferences and our choices.
True. Not to mention how much of who we are and how we see things develops in the first five years of our lives.
quote:
Think about it. Choices are made according to our nature. By nature
I don't mean just emotions, preferences or personality. I am including
our spiritual condition, which in the case of an unconverted person,
is darkened, separated and in conflict with God.
This is the basic premise: An unconverted person's nature is so affected
by the Fall that he is incapable of choosing Christ on his own.
Needless to say I don't see the basic premise in quite the same way, but the essence yes--there simply is not a direct corelation between will and belief.
quote:
BTW, repenting and believing are two sides of the same coin. When we repent we are repenting "from" something as well as "to" someone (God), so believing and repenting are actually very, very similar things.
According to the defenition of 'repent' that I use, it is possible for the hardest atheist, or the most devout Buddhist, to repent without affecting their worldviews.
quote:
I have submitted to this truth. It has guided me to a truth: man is
helpless and hopeless to save himself.
Lucky you, rwe. God has chosen to favor you in a way that he chooses not to favor a huge percentage of his human creations.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/15/2009 12:14:41 AM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1760
Joined: 2/4/2008
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abraxas,
quote:
Lucky you, rwe. God has chosen to favor you in a way that he chooses not to favor a huge percentage of his human creations.
You can debate Calvinistic doctrine with rwe all you want, but I think you know that common sense and even the most simplistic understand of God's Word is enough for you to know the truth. If Calvinism is all that's holding you back from accepting Christ, there's quite a bit of hope I think.
Some will tell you that if you aren't one of the elect then you will never be able to accept the Gospel, God utterly hates and despises you for not being able to accep, and that you are Hell-bound since the beginning all for the "glory of God".
Well I'm here to tell you that you and I both know better. At this very moment, you not only need God, but you are able to accept Him. Furthermore God loves you and desires that you indeed accept the gift offered. I can say all of that with absolute certainty, with not a single contradictions to doctrinal turht found in God's Word.
You may not think you need Him, and you may even be a little bitter against certain doctrines preached by many...and through speaking with you I couldn't help but hear the relativistic post-modern thoughts you have. Such thoughts are hard to overcome, and as consuming as they may be, they leave you completely empty of a desire for real truth.
Truth exists absolutely, not relatively to each individual. Such a thought philosophically defies logic and reality and is, in every definition of the word, stupid. It's your choice.
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/15/2009 7:52:06 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 358
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You know, ENG, I have responded to comments of yours, which I presume not to be Calvanistic, so I'm not sure why you keep charactizing my objections as objections to Calvanism alone.
Furthermore, I have shown how your own comments indicate that you did not in fact choose your beliefs--you "chose" to believe what your mind had already come to believe, which is nonsensical. So while I may disagree on the technicalities or hows and whys of it, I do agree with rwe that belief is not a simple matter of choice.
Speaking of relativistic comments--have you ever used, or heard anyone else use, the term "a matter of personal conviction" when talking about what is and what isn't "sin"? As one example, the thread about drinking, smoking, and tattoos in the morality forum. It's used there. That is relativism. Some of the common--and in my opinion stronger--defenses of slavery and stoning people to death in the OT are nothing more than cultural/historical relativism.
But this--
Truth exists absolutely, not relatively to each individual. Such a thought philosophically defies logic and reality and is, in every definition of the word, stupid.
--is just a strawman. It's a rare and odd person that actually believes that one can somehow determine physical reality via what they believe about it. However, when it comes to morality, well as I've said it's a moot point whether there's an "absolute moral truth", and it will remain so until Christians can actually demonstrate unity on the many moral issues and stop using terms like "personal conviction" to explain how something might be sin for you but not for me, or vice-versa.
One last thing. This--
Furthermore God loves you and desires that you indeed accept the gift offered.
--is something that an open theist might be able to say without digging themselves into a hole, but for anyone who believes that God has complete, infallible knowledge of the future, it is problematic to say the least. On this matter I honestly don't know your position.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/15/2009 8:03:59 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2807
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
I don't think that's quite it. In your scenario, God has created sentient beings
who have absolutely no choice but to suffer and burn for all eternity.
I don't go by what "seems" right to my moral nature, I go by the
biblical description of men: They are by nature, children of wrath. (Eph 2:3)
No, knowing I can do no good in the eyes of God (Isa 64:6) why should I
think making a choice to exercise faith is not a "good" thing? Of course
it is, in fact, it is the "goodest" think a sinful man could ever do, but the
"goodest" think he will never do .......... until his nature is changed.
Which begs the question how is man's nature/will changed.
Which causes us to make a choice : either we are in total control
of our destiny or not.
quote:
God and only God can "choose" them, but for some reason he
chooses not to. Knowing full well what their eternity has in store for them.
I don't think it unreasonable to take it on faith that God is better than that.
God flooded the earth and killed every living creature on it, including
untold numbers of "innocent" children and babies.
Was he better than that?
He destroyed entire countries and instructed his chosen people to
brutally kill every living soul.
Was he better that that?
He poured out his wrath on his own son. God killed his own son.
Was he better than that?
We simply have to read the historical part of the Bible and accept —
not necessarily understand — who God is: loving and wrathful,
merciful and just, incapable of evil and capable of calamity.
They we will change our view and we won't make judgments
such as "God is better than that". See my point?
quote:
Needless to say I don't see the basic premise in quite the
same way, but the essence yes--there simply is not a direct corelation
between will and belief
To the extent that "the things I know I should do I don't do", I agree.
The point is we are no longer slaves to sin and our desires have changed.
Our performance may deny what we believe.....that's why ongoing
repentance is one mark of a true believer. He now wants to do better,
but has to fight his flesh in order to do better.
quote:
According to the defenition of 'repent' that I use, it is possible for the
hardest atheist, or the most devout Buddhist, to repent without affecting
their worldviews.
The biblical definition of repent is "a change of mind".
The Greek word is metanoia
Its more than moral change or "pulling oneself up by the bootstraps",
although these can be evidences of true repentance.
quote:
Lucky you, rwe. God has chosen to favor you in a way that he
chooses not to favor a huge percentage of his human creations.
First, I believe any person can believe and be saved. I have no earthly
idea who God chooses or why he chooses them.
Second, I didn't save myself, Abraxas.
God saved me, and He saved me not on the basis of anything
good in me, not because of a "good" choice I made, not "good" works,
or because my mother was a Christian......
It does not depend on man who runs (works) or wills, but God who has mercy.
I'm not relieved by a good choice I made as I fear many Christians are.
I don't feel lucky........I feel grateful. I have no reason to boast.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/15/2009 8:14:52 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2807
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
You can debate Calvinistic doctrine with rwe all you want, but I think you
know that common sense and even the most simplistic understand of God's
Word is enough for you to know the truth.
If I'm not mistaken, Abraxas knows something must be behind the choice.
That's why I inserted myself in the dialogue.
quote:
If Calvinism is all that's holding you back from accepting Christ,
there's quite a bit of hope I think.
For the record, I am not a Calvinist, I am a biblicist.
There are actually a couple points in Calvinism I have problems with.
Man's depravity and inability is not one of them.
quote:
Some will tell you that if you aren't one of the elect then you will
never be able to accept the Gospel, God utterly hates and despises you
for not being able to accep, and that you are Hell-bound since the
beginning all for the "glory of God".
Anyone who says this should ashamed, too.
Read my post: My presupposition is anyone could be a believer.
I have no idea who the elect are. People do not go to hell because
God "utterly hates and despises" them and you know it.
quote:
Furthermore God loves you and desires that you indeed accept
the gift offered. And if he doesn't accept the gift?
God doesn't love him enough to change his mind?
God will let the one he loves destroy himself?
I wonder, do you think God sheds a tear when sending a sinner to his doom?
Abraxas: don't worry about how you repent and believe, just do it!
You will know because there will be a new Abraxas born.
God Bless.
< Message edited by rwe2156 -- 10/15/2009 9:18:08 AM >
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/15/2009 9:30:34 AM
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drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
One last thing. This--
Furthermore God loves you and desires that you indeed accept the gift offered.
--is something that an open theist might be able to say without digging themselves into a hole, but for anyone who believes that God has complete, infallible knowledge of the future, it is problematic to say the least. On this matter I honestly don't know your position. Sorry, abraxas, but I am not an "Open Theist" and God does not "dig Himself into a hole"! Just simply read His Word and understand what e1ng is saying - God loves you and wants you to be saved:
Romans 5:8 - But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
It truly is your choice, abraxas, to accept God's free gift of grace or not...
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/15/2009 11:17:28 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2807
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Just simply read His Word and understand what e1ng is saying -
God loves you and wants you to be saved:
Romans 5:8 - But God demonstrates his own love for us in this:
While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
I wouldn't dare lecture on exegesis, but this verse is not a prooftext
for God's universal love for sinners because Paul is explaining to
believers why they were saved.
5:6 and John 3:16 are parallels.
Rom 5:6 — For while we were still weak, at the right time
Christ died for the ungodly (not the world).
John 3:16 — well, if salvation depends on the will of man, I guess
Christ died for the whole world.
quote:
2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise,
as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting
anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Another exegetical error.
This verse is clearly not addressed to the world, either. (see v.1)
quote:
It truly is your choice, abraxas, to accept God's free gift of grace or not...
Yes it is, but that choice cannot be made without a change of heart.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/15/2009 4:10:38 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1760
Joined: 2/4/2008
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quote:
You know, ENG, I have responded to comments of yours, which I presume not to be Calvanistic, so I'm not sure why you keep charactizing my objections as objections to Calvanism alone.
Because if you agreed with me, I'd have nothing to debate/ I'd just give you the plan of salvation and be done with it a long time ago.  But alas, I have debate with you for pages trying to get you on the right track.
quote:
Furthermore, I have shown how your own comments indicate that you did not in fact choose your beliefs--you "chose" to believe what your mind had already come to believe, which is nonsensical. So while I may disagree on the technicalities or hows and whys of it, I do agree with rwe that belief is not a simple matter of choice.
Except faith, without works, is dead my friend. Faith is not proven until one acts on that faith. One can believe all they want, but unless they act on their belief and place their trust in Christ and repent, then their belief is useless.
I knew a guy who believe in Christ. He know, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that Christ was Lord, that He is a real person, and that He is the Savior. He understood the plan of salvation, and he believed on Christ. Yet the man refused to accept the gift of salvation. He hated God so much that he refused to accept what he believed was truth! I will not see this man in Heaven, my friend.
So you can believe whatever you want, abraxas. It's STILL your choice. You must STILL either accept and repent or reject.
quote:
Speaking of relativistic comments--have you ever used, or heard anyone else use, the term "a matter of personal conviction" when talking about what is and what isn't "sin"? As one example, the thread about drinking, smoking, and tattoos in the morality forum. It's used there. That is relativism. Some of the common--and in my opinion stronger--defenses of slavery and stoning people to death in the OT are nothing more than cultural/historical relativism.
I can not deny this, abraxas. That phrase has been used to rationalize quite a bit by Christians. You're absolutely right.
However, there is obviously a "relativism" in the sense that God's specific will for my life is far different that His specific will for another individual's life. Therefore the truth for them is X while the truth for me is Y....BUT, God does not contradict Himself, so I can be certain that there is always a principle/precedent/command is absolute.
Take, for instance, the debate on modesty--there are specific guideline and principles set forth from Scripture that are absolute truth. Men should dress like men, and women should dress like women. Furthermore, we should dress modesty so as not to draw attention either in a sexual or highfalutin manner.
In America it would be absurd for a women to wear a shirt that covers only one breast, leaving the other completely exposed. This is unheard of no doubt would be considered wrong by even the most nonreligious folk. However, there is an African tribe where the woman's clothing is precisely this! That is the way the women dress, and it draws no sexual attention whatsoever from that culture.
One might consider this relativism, but it's not. The absolutes that govern modesty are still in place.
quote:
--is just a strawman. It's a rare and odd person that actually believes that one can somehow determine physical reality via what they believe about it. However, when it comes to morality, well as I've said it's a moot point whether there's an "absolute moral truth", and it will remain so until Christians can actually demonstrate unity on the many moral issues and stop using terms like "personal conviction" to explain how something might be sin for you but not for me, or vice-versa.
Christians, because they are people, will never completely agree on every single aspect, my friend. It just won't happen. I'm sorry. But allow me to speak briefly on this "personal conviction" that you speak of.
The principle in Scripture is to flee temptation. We are to proactively avoid situations that would tempt us, and if ever found in such a situation, we are to literally run away.
My former pastor, who's son is my closest friend to this day, has a personal conviction against playing cards. He only plays Uno, Skippo, Dutch Blitz, etc etc...however, he does not impose this conviction on his son. This struck me curious, so I asked him.
He said that this conviction was not something he believed to be universally wrong. However, it was wrong for him because he had a history o gambling and he knew it would bring back unpleasant thoughts and temptations. Therefore, for him is was wrong because it tempts him, but it was wrong due to the absolute truth found in God's Word!
quote:
One last thing. This--
Furthermore God loves you and desires that you indeed accept the gift offered.
--is something that an open theist might be able to say without digging themselves into a hole, but for anyone who believes that God has complete, infallible knowledge of the future, it is problematic to say the least. On this matter I honestly don't know your position.
You believe that a God with infinite knowledge of the future can not possibly desire that you accept the gift?
I'm not sure what "matter" you speak of. I thought we already discussed God's foreknowledge.
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/15/2009 4:16:46 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1760
Joined: 2/4/2008
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rwe,
quote:
I wouldn't dare lecture on exegesis, but...
Well then why on earth did you???
God's loves abraxas and does not desire that he perish but rather come to repentance, amen, and sent His Son to die for him specifically. What a glorious picture of the love of God who truly is love!!!
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/15/2009 7:19:15 PM
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abraxas
Posts: 358
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
You believe that a God with infinite knowledge of the future can not possibly desire that you accept the gift?
I'm not sure what "matter" you speak of. I thought we already discussed God's foreknowledge.
ENG, I'm sorry to gloss over everything else that was said--I've got to get ready for work. But you say we've already discussed God's foreknowledge. Did we settle that issue? No, I don't believe it makes any sense for a God--of infinte knowledge, if that infinate knowledge knows full well whether I will or won't accept that gift--, would desire that I accept that gift. After all, he knows exactly what I will do. Where does desire come into play?
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/16/2009 1:46:21 AM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1760
Joined: 2/4/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
quote:
You believe that a God with infinite knowledge of the future can not possibly desire that you accept the gift?
I'm not sure what "matter" you speak of. I thought we already discussed God's foreknowledge.
ENG, I'm sorry to gloss over everything else that was said--I've got to get ready for work. But you say we've already discussed God's foreknowledge. Did we settle that issue? No, I don't believe it makes any sense for a God--of infinte knowledge, if that infinate knowledge knows full well whether I will or won't accept that gift--, would desire that I accept that gift. After all, he knows exactly what I will do. Where does desire come into play?
You are definately correct that we did not settle the issue, my friend. But even the most intelligent theologians haven't settled the issue for the past thousands of years. I highly doubt we will come to some magnificent breakthrough that will cease all debate.
I can only tell you what is settled in my own mind. You may not like it or believe it, but it is what I believe nonetheless. I can not emphasize to you enough that foreknowledge does not predetermine a single thing. And the only way I can possibly think of to explain this was through the analogy that I gave you. I'm not sure what else to say, my friend.
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/16/2009 2:51:12 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 358
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
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For one thing you could explain how exactly God could desire something that he knows with absolute certainty is not going to happen.
You could also try again to explain how or why you chose your beliefs, since I've shown that your first attempt put the cart before the horse.
Maybe you could also take a stab at explaining why an amazingly loving God, so worthy of all the praise one can manage, would create a place/state called Hell, and then create, ex nihilo, beings whom he foreknew with absolute certainty would spend an infinite amount of time in that Hell. Don't push that off as a critique of Calvanism alone.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/16/2009 7:59:43 AM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1760
Joined: 2/4/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
For one thing you could explain how exactly God could desire something that he knows with absolute certainty is not going to happen.
You could also try again to explain how or why you chose your beliefs, since I've shown that your first attempt put the cart before the horse.
Maybe you could also take a stab at explaining why an amazingly loving God, so worthy of all the praise one can manage, would create a place/state called Hell, and then create, ex nihilo, beings whom he foreknew with absolute certainty would spend an infinite amount of time in that Hell. Don't push that off as a critique of Calvanism alone.
I will be gone most of the day today, and I do not know when I'll get a chance to reply. Most likely later tonight....thanks for your patience.
ZG
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/16/2009 8:10:08 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2807
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
rwe,
quote:
I wouldn't dare lecture on exegesis, but...
Well then why on earth did you???
Because I think the verses were prooftexted out of context
and I tried to show that. 'I wouldn't dare' is a reference
to the fact I have sin, therefore I know my theology is flawed.
I didn't mean it as a lecture but to simply show an error.
quote:
God's loves abraxas and does not desire that he perish but rather
come to repentance, amen, and sent His Son to die for him specifically.
What a glorious picture of the love of God who truly is love!!!
So what does "God is the savior of all men, especially those who believe"
mean to you?
No, God does not "desire" that any man perish because he takes no
pleasure in the death of the wicked.
And die they will.
Do you think God sheds tears while sending sinners to their doom?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/16/2009 8:22:19 AM
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drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
Do you think God sheds tears while sending sinners to their doom? God does NOT send sinners to Hell - they choose Hell by their unrepentant sinning and rejection of His grace!
If you have nothing nice to say, rwe, please say nothing at all. Some of us here understand correct Christian doctrine, and it isn't your brand of Calvinism... 
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/16/2009 9:30:04 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2807
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
God does NOT send sinners to Hell - they choose Hell by their
unrepentant sinning and rejection of His grace!
Huh????????? This is not biblical!
Mattew 7:22-23
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your
name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
I don't know about your god, but my God is a god of justice
and judgment as well as mercy and grace.
His justice WILL be administered against all unbelievers.
They WILL be subject to his wrath poured out on them
and everyone who is not justified before him by faith in Christ
will be pronounced "guilty" and condemned to hell.
2 Peter 3:7
But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored
up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
Romans 5:9
Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall
we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Romans 9:22
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power,
has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Romans 13:5
Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but
also for the sake of conscience.
1 Thessalonians 1:10
and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead,
Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
Can anyone say JUDGMENT?
The wrath of God is coming.
quote:
If you have nothing nice to say, rwe, please say nothing at all.
Hey, I know. Its not nice. Especially if I'm talking about someone's
cute and cuddly god —you know — the one who is standing by the portals,
waiting and watching, begging and pleading, oh sinner, come home......
the one wondering "Why, oh why won't they choose me? 
THAT God? THAT God does not exist in the Bible, only in the imagination.
Its the same old story: God created in the image of man.
Revelation 19:15
From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike
down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the
winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.
Not nice, is it — having such a meanie for a god.
quote:
Some of us here understand correct Christian doctrine, and it isn't
your brand of Calvinism...
Lets take a poll, drmark.
Does God judge sin and send sinners to hell?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/16/2009 6:23:28 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
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Start a new thread and be prepared to flinch, rwe.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/16/2009 6:52:30 PM
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abraxas
Posts: 358
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
They WILL be subject to his wrath poured out on them
and everyone who is not justified before him by faith in Christ
will be pronounced "guilty" and condemned to hell.
Let me ask again--
1. If God has perfect knowledge of the future, did he always feel this wrath, or did he wait until people did things against his will, and then begin to feel wrathful?
2. If God had infallible knowledge that those people would be condemned to hell, why did he create them?
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