|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: New Heaven and New earth question. - 9/3/2009 8:40:31 PM
|
|
|
yohannan
Posts: 265
Joined: 2/23/2009
Status: offline
|
Gracias, Grazie!
I believe that your word study is very informative regarding word placement:
Ar+Mag(og)+Eddon
Ar was Prophesied as placed over Moab before Moses was gathered to his people. For the false prophet Balaam had appeared with his gift of Prophecy and had enticed the peoples of Judea into sexual sins and idolatry dedications to Baal. Baal is the golden calf. In the law of Moses the bull is the first sacrifice and the cows were used in the Prophetic dream given to Pharoah for two 'sevens', one to prepare the Empire in the meantime and one for the decision.
The fulfillment of Magog and gog is coming in the culmination of the appearance of the false prophet called the beast from the earth that will come and implement the number of his name as a form of commerce worship to himself which is the fertility idolatry cleanup on seven years as written in Isaiah; as well; for each will be tested according to what Truths one would endure to holding onto for seven years. That is, that the idolatry of the leaderships of nations and Empires in accordance with the statue Prophecy given to Daniel at the time of the appearance of the ten toes called horns in the Revelation, and elsewhere in Daniel, as worldwide leadership with this covenant to implement the mark of the worship of the commerce of Mammon instead of Love for God will come to its culmination and desolation decisions.
Edom is Prophesied along with Ammon (these ten prominent leaders), Egypt, and Moab. Jeremiah 9:26 et al.
Where eddon is the times of the 'gentile' nations following the fall in the Garden of Eden. For Don is a common usage for a Rulership of a House with two available 'd''s for Dragon or God when The Lord placed a seal to protect the murderer of the first Martyr whose Sacrifice was accepted whose name was Abel. For was not Cain called the 'builder' as at first, but Abel gave the Acceptable Sacrifice of the Submission to the Martyrdom? For The Lord had already known that Cain would choose evil as a response rather than patience. For when one has a relationship with someone, one must build that relationship with love so that one begins to form an acceptable control of self and thought, no who loves things to be thrust upon them as though they must be accepted? Would not this be the Lord and we are mere peoples? I would say that Pharoah would not have chosen all from among the people to be his Priest... If one does well, won't it be accepted for He has done all things well. Look at creation, for are we not fearfully and wonderfully made?
The nations are presently Prophetically planted among the Euphrates which is the final river of the four original riverheads which placed in The Garden to water it and tend to its winds for God Is Spirit is written.
This is the river Prophesied concerning where the river will run dry and there will be an order in The Kingdom to cause no wind to blow on it as a Judgment is written.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Oseas2
quote yohannan
>>>1244 days or 41 1/2 months or 4 years minus about 6 months. The time period of about 3 1/2 years is the period of the Prophetic Angelic Desolation Decrees where the Dragon kills his children as written at The Sovereign ordinances of God.
This will include the five month period of suffering of the bottomless pit beings released and the war of Armageddon as written. <<<
----------------------------------------------------------------
Did you ever meditate in Revelation 16:v.12to16 for a good understanding on the war of Armageddom? It seems a contraction of three words : Ar+Mag(og)+Eddom.
(Rev.16:v.13-14&16)
13 And I saw THREE UNCLEAN SPIRITS like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For THEY ARE THE SPIRITS OF DEVILS, working miracles, which go forth unto the KINGS OF THE EARTH and OF THE WHOLE WORLD, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
16 And he gathered them together into a PLACE CALLED in the Hebrew tongue ARMAGEDDON.
Satan will use all his strategy in accord the verses above because the fulfillment of Revelation 11:v. 15&18 :
15 ...The KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.
18 And THE NATIONS WERE ANGRY, and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and SHOULDEST DESTROY THEM WHICH DESTROY THE EARTH.
May the LORD God bless and protect us until the end of all things
In Christ Jesus, KING of the kings and LORD of the lords
Oseas
< Message edited by yohannan -- 9/5/2009 1:06:54 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: New Heaven and New earth question. - 9/4/2009 2:00:54 PM
|
|
|
Retrobyter
Posts: 809
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
|
Shalom, yohannan.
quote:
ORIGINAL: yohannan
Gracias, Grazie!
I believe that your word study is very informative regarding word placement:
Ar+Mag(og)+Eddom
Ar was Prophesied as placed over Moab before Moses was gathered to his people. For the false prophet Balaam had appeared with his gift of Prophecy and had enticed the peoples of Judea into sexual sins and idolatry dedications to Baal. Baal is the golden calf. In the law of Moses the bull is the first sacrifice and the cows were used in the Prophetic dream given to Pharoah for two 'sevens', one to prepare the Empire in the meantime and one for the decision.
The fulfillment of Magog and gog is coming in the culmination of the appearance of the false prophet called the beast from the earth that will come and implement the number of his name as a form of commerce worship to himself which is the fertility idolatry cleanup on seven years as written in Isaiah; as well; for each will be tested according to what Truths one would endure to holding onto for seven years. That is, that the idolatry of the leaderships of nations and Empires in accordance with the statue Prophecy given to Daniel at the time of the appearance of the ten toes called horns in the Revelation, and elsewhere in Daniel, as worldwide leadership with this covenant to implement the mark of the worship of the commerce of Mammon instead of Love for God will come to its culmination and desolation decisions.
Edom is Prophesied along with Ammon (these ten prominent leaders), Egypt, and Moab. Jeremiah 9:26 et al.
You need to stop this. Don't encourage this way of faulty "interpretation!" "Armageddon" (not "ArmageddoM," by the way) is NOT a contraction of three words! I'm going to give you a very rigid means of transliteration between Hebrew and English first:
ALEFBET:
alef = '
bet = b
gimmel = g
dalet = d
hei = h
vav = w
zayin = z
chet = ch
tet = T
yud = y
khaf = kh
kaf = k (a "dotted" khaf)
lamed = l
mem = m
nun = n
samekh = c
ayin = `
fei = f
pei = p (a "dotted" fei)
tsadday = ts
qof = q
reish = r
shin = sh
sin = s (dot above the left side of the letter instead of over the right side)
tav = t
thav = th (a "dotted" tav)
VOWEL POINTING:
qamets (a small "T" drawn under a letter) = aa (pronounced like "aw" as in "paw")
patach (a horizontal line drawn under a letter, like an underline) = a (pronounced "ah" as in "father")
chireq (a single dot drawn under a letter) = i (pronounced like "ee" as in "bee")
tsere (two dots horizontally arranged like a diaeresis drawn under a letter) = ee (pronounced as "ey" in "prey")
cholem (a single dot or small circle written above and left of the letter) = o (pronounced like the "o" in "row")
segol (a triangle of three dots, two above one, drawn under a letter) = e (pronounced as the "e" as in "egg")
qibbuts (three dots arranged like a backslash drawn under a letter) = u (pronounced as the "oo" in "moon")
sheva (two dots vertically arranged like a colon drawn under a letter) = [no letter] or a [schwa] (pronounced "a" in "among" or "o" in "occur" or nothing at all for consonant blends)
USE THIS when dealing with the Hebrew words!
Armageddon (Greek) = Har-Megiddown (Hebrew)
It is spelled "hei-patach-reish" and "mem-sheva-gimmel-chireq-dalet-cholem-vav-nun." That gives us the English spelling of "har" and "mgidown."
Ar (Hebrew) is spelled "ayin-qamets-reish." That's spelled TOTALLY different than "har!" Using our rigid transliteration scheme, it's "`aar!"
Magog (Hebrew) is spelled "mem-qamets-gimmel-cholem-vav-gimmel" or "Maagowg." (He was one of the sons of Japheth.) Again, that is spelled TOTALLY different than "Mgidown!"
Edom (Hebrew) is spelled "alef-sheva-segol-dalet-cholem-vav-mem" or "'edowm." (Notice the ' mark.) It actually comes from the same root as the name "Adam!" Thus, it, too, is far different than any part of "Mgidown!"
Please avoid these mistakes. If you don't know the language of Hebrew (or Greek), do NOT assume so much from the English transliterations! Instead, read and trust others who DO know the language or take the time to learn it yourself. It's very important that you do this to avoid making mistakes that could prove to be far worse than just assuming "Armageddon" is some combination of arbitrary names that sound similar (to the English-speaking ear).
In the love of the Messiah,
Roy
< Message edited by Retrobyter -- 9/4/2009 2:09:31 PM >
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: New Heaven and New earth question. - 9/4/2009 11:26:53 PM
|
|
|
Oseas2
Posts: 99
Joined: 7/31/2009
Status: offline
|
quote Retrobyter
>>>Sorry, but the word "Armageddon" is a Anglicized Helenization of the Hebrew words...<<<
No matter what, Roy, it is very important to know that the Holy Spirit reveals, and speaks, and teaches in all languages, he is not subject to a singular/ specific language, he sounds in all languages and what he says is linked with God´s things what generally is a mystery, mystery of God, and not with men´s things.
>>>The name Armageddon mentioned in the New Testament derives from Har Megiddo (Hebrew) meaning Mount of Megiddo. Its name doesn't have anything to do with "Magog." You can see a good picture of the tel here on Wikipedia and here on enciclopedia. More images of the tel can be seen here at BiblePlaces. <<<
The material things are figures of SPIRITUAL things, thus , the most important is not to preach what is figured by earthly pictures, but the spiritual side of them and to know/understand what the Holy Spirit reveals unto us by the same pictures, as follow:
(Example): The tabernacle and the sanctuary made in the OT with all their figures (candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread, golden censer, the ark of covenant, the golden pot that had manna, and so on), made with hands of men, ALL THESE THINGS of the tabernacle were a figure (an allegory) of a great and MORE PERFECT TABERNACLE with the coming of the LORD Jesus Christ, which is not made with hands of man.
BTW, notice that the Law of Moses was a shadow of good things to come and NOT the very image of the things.
>>>Armageddon (AR-ma·GED·don), the mount of Megiddo, according to the New Testament book of Revelation, is once again to host one of the world's major armies in a immense conflict between East and West (Revelation 16:16). <<<
That is one of the figures or speculation which the LETTER of Scripture may create in the mind of the reader if he remains in a materialist and not in a spiritual interpretation, as was explained above in the case of tabernacle in the OT.
>>>The idea of Megiddo being the venue of humanity's apocalyptic finale, the "final" battle in this war called the "Battle of Armageddon", is a misnomer. The actual battle is to occur at Jerusalem and called "the war of the great day of God, the Almighty" (Revelation 16:14 NASB) or the "Battle of That Great Day of God Almighty" (KJV). <<<
Notice that the BATTLE is against the SPIRITS OF DEVILS, figured by three UNCLEAN SPÍRITS, which are A SATANIC TRINITY working miracles (this has nothing with "the world's major armies in a immense conflict " as you said), this is a spiritual battle of demons leaded by the own Satan against the true Christians/believers in these last days. Notice that the problem is WHAT COME OUT OF THE MOUTH of the DRAGON, and out of the MOUTH of the BEAST, and out of the MOUTH of the FALSE PROPHET, again I tell you that this has nothing with we call of conventional war armies, but has with what IS WRITTEN IN Ravelation 13:v.11to18).
Furthermore, remember that the DRAGON has seven (7) HEADS, ten(10) HORNS, and a TAIL. I must reveal unto you (and all) that this SATANIC TRINITY are already moving THE RULLERS OF THE DARKNESS IN WHOLE WORLD, and with their MOUTH (not conventional armies) they are gathering the nations/peoples around them, but they WILL NEED TO FIGHT WITH WHOM IS MUCH MORE POWERFUL THAN THEM ALL TOGETHER, yea, they will need to fight against the OMNIPOTENT GOD, the Most High GOD, JEOVAH GOD, the GOD of true Christians/believers.
>>>The actual battle is to occur at Jerusalem and called "the war of the great day of God, the Almighty" (Revelation 16:14 NASB) or the "Battle of That Great Day of God Almighty" (KJV). <<<
Yes, IN THIS YOU ARE RIGHT. This millennium is the millennium of Christ´s kingdom, as I wrote above Revelation 11:v.15and18 two great events for this time:
11:v.15 " The KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD are become the KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD, and of his Christ; and HE SHALL REIGN ever and ever" , did you understand?
11:v.18 "AND THE NATIONS WERE ANGRY ...". Yes, nations/peoples leaded by the three spirits of devils, which in the LAST SEVEN YEARS OF THIS WORLD will give support to the BEAST like a lamb with two horns, which is A FALSE MESSIAH, as prophesied the LORD Jesus speaking to the Jews: " I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another (AN IMPOSTOR, A FALSE MESSIAH) shall come in his own name, him ye will receive" (John 5:v.43).
Yea, the Jews are waiting their particular messiah, not JESUS, the true MESSIAH. The false messiah, which is the DRAGON, and SPEAK AS A DRAGON (see Revelation 13:v.11), he will put his throne in Jerusalem, and as YOU HAVE SAID --> "The actual battle is to occur at Jerusalem and called "the war of the great day of God, the Almighty" (Revelation 16:14 NASB) or the "Battle of That Great Day of God Almighty". IN THIS YOU ARE CORRECT.
The throne of Satan will be really in Jerusalem, for Jerusalem is much more important than the Vatican City, where is sat the "First Beast" (Rev. 13:v.12). The manifestation of the FALSE MESSIAH of the Jews is at door, with him the BODY OF THE RED DRAGON will be complete by entirely.
>>>At the end of the age, in biblical prophecy, the valley of Megiddo, now known as the valley of Jezreel, will serve as the gathering place for an immense army which will engage the returning messiah, Jesus Christ, and his supernatural army in the Day of the Lord (Revelation 1:10; 16:12-16; 19:19; I Thessalonians 5:2; Joel 1:15; 2:11, 2:31). Therefore, the REAL battle is the one where Yeshua` haMashiach (Jesus the Messiah or Jesus the Christ) rescues and liberates Jerusalem. Har-Megiddown is where the attacking armies stop retreating from the Yeshua` and His army and think they can make a stand in Geiy-Yizre'el (the Valley of Jezreel), a large, natural staging area. That is where the opposing armies are defeated and destroyed.<<<
WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE "ARMY" OF THE LORD JESUS? Do not think that he will use evil armies of demoniac men like the false messiah of the Jews which is "a strong delusion" that they - the Jews and their followers - should believe a lie.
Remember that THE LORD HIMSELF WILL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN WITH A SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF ARCHANGEL AND WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD, this has nothing with armies as they are known of men.
Be ready and look up, for in the God´s clock time is already midnight.
In Christ JESUS, KING of the kings and LORD of the lords
Oseas
< Message edited by Oseas2 -- 9/4/2009 11:44:45 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: New Heaven and New earth question. - 9/5/2009 3:36:58 PM
|
|
|
Retrobyter
Posts: 809
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
|
Shabbat shalom, Oseas2.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Oseas2
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Sorry, but the word "Armageddon" is a Anglicized Helenization of the Hebrew words...
No matter what, Roy, it is very important to know that the Holy Spirit reveals, and speaks, and teaches in all languages, he is not subject to a singular/ specific language, he sounds in all languages and what he says is linked with God´s things what generally is a mystery, mystery of God, and not with men´s things.
The Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) of God does NOT work outside of God’s Word. He works WITH His Word! He NEVER contradicts it. While there are SOME things that are (or rather WERE) “mysteries” or secrets, He is the Revealer of secrets! Maybe your understanding of “mystery” (which comes from the Greek word musteerion, by the way) is itself a mystery to you! How do you even know what the word “mystery” means without some sort of explanation as to the meaning of the word? Sure, the Ruach haQodesh can work in any language, but HE HAS ALREADY CHOSEN TO REVEAL HIS WILL IN THE LANGUAGES OF HEBREW AND GREEK IN THOSE BOOKS WE NOW CALL THE “BIBLE!” This is an undeniable fact! Translations are never one-to-one; so, it’s important that we understand something about the ORIGINAL languages IF we intend to dig deeper into God’s Word. Thus, the Ruach haQodesh does not work INDEPENDENTLY from God’s Word, and His goal is to communicate WITH men.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Oseas2
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
The name Armageddon mentioned in the New Testament derives from Har Megiddo (Hebrew) meaning Mount of Megiddo. Its name doesn't have anything to do with "Magog." You can see a good picture of the tel here on Wikipedia and here on enciclopedia. More images of the tel can be seen here at BiblePlaces.
The material things are figures of SPIRITUAL things, thus , the most important is not to preach what is figured by earthly pictures, but the spiritual side of them and to know/understand what the Holy Spirit reveals unto us by the same pictures, as follow:
(Example): The tabernacle and the sanctuary made in the OT with all their figures (candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread, golden censer, the ark of covenant, the golden pot that had manna, and so on), made with hands of men, ALL THESE THINGS of the tabernacle were a figure (an allegory) of a great and MORE PERFECT TABERNACLE with the coming of the LORD Jesus Christ, which is not made with hands of man.
BTW, notice that the Law of Moses was a shadow of good things to come and NOT the very image of the things.
It would be best if you first learn what all this means before spouting off about it. This phrase, “a greater and more perfect tabernacle,” comes from Hebrews 9:11 and means “the larger and more complete TENT (Greek: tees meizonos kai teleioteras skeenees)!” Did you know that the New Jerusalem is called the “tabernacle [or TENT] of God? (Greek: hee skeenee tou Theou, Rev. 21:3)” And, the New Jerusalem is not some “spiritual” or ethereal place but is a LITERAL, TANGIBLE, CONCRETE BUILDING! Of course it’s not “made with human hands.” No human hands could build it! It’s colossal and extremely expensive! Too huge and too expensive for any group of human beings on the face of the earth to build! One does not have to go off into Never-Never Land to find an explanation! It’s much more down-to-earth than that! And, when the New Jerusalem lands on the New Earth, it will be literally “down-to-earth!”
quote:
ORIGINAL: Oseas2
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Armageddon (AR-ma•GED•don), the mount of Megiddo, according to the New Testament book of Revelation, is once again to host one of the world's major armies in a immense conflict between East and West (Revelation 16:16).
That is one of the figures or speculation which the LETTER of Scripture may create in the mind of the reader if he remains in a materialist and not in a spiritual interpretation, as was explained above in the case of tabernacle in the OT.
The problem most Christians have today is that they have LOST the original, simple meanings of the Hebrew and Greek texts and have opted for some “spiritual explanation” for things that should have been obvious to us! It is NOT a “spiritual interpretation” that one should seek. It’s that we should seek to have our eyes opened to the LITERAL, DOWN-TO-EARTH TRUTH of the Author’s statements to us! Consider Zech. 12:1-14:
Zech 12:1-14
1 This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD , who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares: 2 "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness," declares the LORD . "I will keep a watchful eye over the house of Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the leaders of Judah will say in their hearts, 'The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the LORD Almighty is their God.'
6 "On that day I will make the leaders of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume right and left all the surrounding peoples, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.
7 "The LORD will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem's inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the LORD will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of the LORD going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirita of grace and supplication. They will look onb me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.
NIV
quote:
ORIGINAL: Oseas2
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
The idea of Megiddo being the venue of humanity's apocalyptic finale, the "final" battle in this war called the "Battle of Armageddon", is a misnomer. The actual battle is to occur at Jerusalem and called "the war of the great day of God, the Almighty" (Revelation 16:14 NASB) or the "Battle of That Great Day of God Almighty" (KJV).
Notice that the BATTLE is against the SPIRITS OF DEVILS, figured by three UNCLEAN SPÍRITS, which are A SATANIC TRINITY working miracles (this has nothing with "the world's major armies in a immense conflict " as you said), this is a spiritual battle of demons leaded by the own Satan against the true Christians/believers in these last days. Notice that the problem is WHAT COME OUT OF THE MOUTH of the DRAGON, and out of the MOUTH of the BEAST, and out of the MOUTH of the FALSE PROPHET, again I tell you that this has nothing with we call of conventional war armies, but has with what IS WRITTEN IN Ravelation 13:v.11to18).
Furthermore, remember that the DRAGON has seven (7) HEADS, ten(10) HORNS, and a TAIL. I must reveal unto you (and all) that this SATANIC TRINITY are already moving THE RULLERS OF THE DARKNESS IN WHOLE WORLD, and with their MOUTH (not conventional armies) they are gathering the nations/peoples around them, but they WILL NEED TO FIGHT WITH WHOM IS MUCH MORE POWERFUL THAN THEM ALL TOGETHER, yea, they will need to fight against the OMNIPOTENT GOD, the Most High GOD, JEOVAH GOD, the GOD of true Christians/believers.
And, what YOU need to remember is that these symbols ARE figurative and the symbols have been interpreted for us! The “seven heads” are “seven mountains” or “seven dominions,” each one having its own “crown” or governmental authority; the “ten horns” are “ten kings” where six of them are each on one head, and one head has three as a triad of kings or a triumvirate uprooted by a fourth, the tenth king; and the dragon itself is the “original serpent or snake or reptile” that we call the “Devil” (Greek: diabolos meaning “the Accuser”) and “Satan” (Hebrew: haSatan meaning “the Enemy” as a court-room prosecutor, the Hebrew for “Accuser”).
Furthermore, what YOU need to know is that the “three unclean spirits like frogs” of Rev. 16:13 and 14 can also mean “three impure attitudes, contageous like gossip” because “spirit” can also mean “attitude” (as it does in I John 4:3 when talking about the “spirit of antichrist” which is the “attitude of being opposed to the Messiah” and not a creature called a “spirit”), and “like frogs” can refer to their hopping from person to person.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Oseas2
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
The actual battle is to occur at Jerusalem and called "the war of the great day of God, the Almighty" (Revelation 16:14 NASB) or the "Battle of That Great Day of God Almighty" (KJV).
Yes, IN THIS YOU ARE RIGHT. This millennium is the millennium of Christ´s kingdom, as I wrote above Revelation 11:v.15and18 two great events for this time:
11:v.15 " The KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD are become the KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD, and of his Christ; and HE SHALL REIGN ever and ever" , did you understand?
(I had to break this one up a little.) More than you know. I hope your statement, “…two great events for this time,” is not a reference to the present! Heaven forbid that we are in the Millennium now! Where is the proof that He is reigning over and controlling any of the world’s kingdoms now?! The proof is not there because the KING is not there! We are looking FORWARD to a Millennium when He returns to literally, physically and tangibly reign in Yerushalayim, Isra’el, over…
(1) all Y’hudah,
(2) all Isra’el,
(3) the vassal countries that surround Isra’el who are not destroyed in the war or in the war tribunal to follow, and
(4) eventually, the whole world.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Oseas2
11:v.18 "AND THE NATIONS WERE ANGRY ...". Yes, nations/peoples leaded by the three spirits of devils, which in the LAST SEVEN YEARS OF THIS WORLD will give support to the BEAST like a lamb with two horns, which is A FALSE MESSIAH, as prophesied the LORD Jesus speaking to the Jews: " I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another (AN IMPOSTOR, A FALSE MESSIAH) shall come in his own name, him ye will receive" (John 5:v.43).
To this verse, you absolutely MUST add the text from which it is quoted in Psalm 2:
Ps 2:1-12
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD , and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
KJV
quote:
ORIGINAL: Oseas2
Yea, the Jews are waiting their particular messiah, not JESUS, the true MESSIAH. The false messiah, which is the DRAGON, and SPEAK AS A DRAGON (see Revelation 13:v.11), he will put his throne in Jerusalem, and as YOU HAVE SAID --> "The actual battle is to occur at Jerusalem and called "the war of the great day of God, the Almighty" (Revelation 16:14 NASB) or the "Battle of That Great Day of God Almighty". IN THIS YOU ARE CORRECT.
The throne of Satan will be really in Jerusalem, for Jerusalem is much more important than the Vatican City, where is sat the "First Beast" (Rev. 13:v.12). The manifestation of the FALSE MESSIAH of the Jews is at door, with him the BODY OF THE RED DRAGON will be complete by entirely.
You MAY be correct here, but only if there is some truth to this theory of some powerful “Antichrist” who comes on the scene. It’s simply a matter of interpretation at this point. Some believe as you claim, but others claim that the Jews hold out for the real Messiah, not accept some Messiah-wanna-be. To talk with modern Jews, one quickly gets the picture that they believe a lot like Lois Lane’s Pulitzer-winning article in the most recent Superman movie, Superman Returns: “Why the world doesn’t need a Superman.”
quote:
ORIGINAL: Oseas2
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
At the end of the age, in biblical prophecy, the valley of Megiddo, now known as the valley of Jezreel, will serve as the gathering place for an immense army which will engage the returning messiah, Jesus Christ, and his supernatural army in the Day of the Lord (Revelation 1:10; 16:12-16; 19:19; I Thessalonians 5:2; Joel 1:15; 2:11, 2:31). Therefore, the REAL battle is the one where Yeshua` haMashiach (Jesus the Messiah or Jesus the Christ) rescues and liberates Jerusalem. Har-Megiddown is where the attacking armies stop retreating from the Yeshua` and His army and think they can make a stand in Geiy-Yizre'el (the Valley of Jezreel), a large, natural staging area. That is where the opposing armies are defeated and destroyed.
WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE "ARMY" OF THE LORD JESUS? Do not think that he will use evil armies of demoniac men like the false messiah of the Jews which is "a strong delusion" that they - the Jews and their followers - should believe a lie.
Remember that THE LORD HIMSELF WILL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN WITH A SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF ARCHANGEL AND WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD, this has nothing with armies as they are known of men.
Be ready and look up, for in the God´s clock time is already midnight.
In Christ JESUS, KING of the kings and LORD of the lords
Oseas
It’s quite simple; simply use the verse that talks about the “army” of the Master Yeshua`:
Rev 19:14
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
KJV
They were described in the verses that precede verse 10:
Rev 19:1-9
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
KJV
But, to these don’t forget the verses in other passages as well:
Zech 14:1-9
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD , not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD , and his name one.
KJV
and Zech. 12:1-14 already listed above.
In the Messiah’s love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: New Heaven and New earth question. - 9/6/2009 12:52:26 AM
|
|
|
Oseas2
Posts: 99
Joined: 7/31/2009
Status: offline
|
quote yohannan
>>>...the idolatry of the leaderships of nations and Empires in accordance with the statue Prophecy given to Daniel at the time of the appearance of the ten toes called horns in the Revelation, and elsewhere in Daniel, as worldwide leadership with this covenant to implement the mark...<<<
--------------------------------------------------
Yes, yohannan, the image of "the statue Prophecy given to Daniel" as you said, brings unto us a sequence of prophetic happenings since the time of Daniel until our days, as is written: (Daniel 2:v.28) There is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar WHAT SHALL BE IN THE LATTER DAYS.
God is in control of the history, nothing random happens. And our God revealed to Daniel what would go to happen even IN OUR DAYS, in the END TIMES. Beginning by the Empire of Babylon the prophet described all
kingdoms of the earth throughout the times, until the end of all things.
We are now, even now, living in the time appointed by the feet and toes of the great image which are part of iron and part of clay. And as was revealed unto Daniel, THE FEET AND TOES represent A DIVIDED KINGDOM, as is written: "And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, THE KINGDOM SHALL BE DIVIDED; but THERE SHALL BE IN IT OF THE STRENGTH OF IRON, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay".
It is what will happen in the days ahead, for the time of fulfillment of the prophecy has just arrived. This divided kingdom will be exceedingly satanic. The part of iron of the kingdom represents a remainder / vestige of the last empire - Roman Empire - (the RCC, for example), but the potter´s clay is a new component of this last satanic Empire, whose component will aggregate/associate with part of iron (strong part of the kingdom). The clay is/will be a broken part of the kingdom.
What we are studying is a prophecy written in the Word of God, so for to identify the clay we need to search in the same Word of God. Reading Isaiah 64:v.8 we may assume that the clay is the Jewish people, that is the carnal nation of Israel, the same that did kill all the prophets of the LORD, and crucified the true Messiah - LORD Jesus Christ, and killed the Apostles of the LORD.
(Isaiah 64:v.8) But now, O LORD, thou art our father; WE ARE THE CLAY, and THOU OUR POTTER; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Thus, with the appearance of the false messiah of the Jews (the beast that will come up of the earth - Rev. 13:v.11), the man of sin and son of perdition, making great signs and wonders (Rev.13:v.13-14), he will put his throne in Jerusalem and will associate with the Pope (the first beast) and ALL that dwell upon the earth SHALL WORSHIP HIM (Rev.13:v.8) whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb...If any man have an ear, let him hear.
>>>...the ten toes called horns in the Revelation, and elsewhere in Daniel, as worldwide leadership with this covenant to implement the mark...<<<
The ten toes (Dan. 2:v.41-42) and ten horns (Rev. 13:v.1) they are the same really as you have said, I agree with you. In the prophecy they represent TEN KINGS which will aggregate / associate with the first beast (Rev.13:v.12), they are the clay of this DIVIDED KINGDOM and it is right that these TEN KINGS have received no kingdom AS YET, but will receive POWER AS KINGS one (1) hour WITH THE BEAST (with the first beast - the Pope). One hour signifies a little time, btw, it signifies an ephemeral kingdom, and it will be really.
As we can see, the beast that WILL COME UP out of the earth will be the HEAD of Israel in this time of end and he makes part of the clay and will represent the TEN TRIBES of Israel which REBELLED AGAINST THE HOUSE OF DAVID UNTIL THIS DAY - Jesus is of the David´s house - (the beast is a false messiah, he will manifest himself with the fullness of the spirit of Satan, as the own Satan (ex-cherub) incarnate, he is at door, he comes before the coming of the LORD Jesus Christ, he will make great signs and wonders - Matt.24:v.24), then will fulfill what Jesus said, as follow:
(Matt.24:21-23)
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
BEHOLD, I HAVE TOLD YOU BEFORE.
In Christ JESUS, KING of the kings and LORD of the lords
Oseas
< Message edited by Oseas2 -- 9/6/2009 1:05:14 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: New Heaven and New earth question. - 9/8/2009 1:03:04 AM
|
|
|
Retrobyter
Posts: 809
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
|
Shalom, Oseas2.
It took you TWO posts to basically say the same thing: You believe that the Holy Spirit does not work through the study of God's Word through the original languages because "the LETTER kills, but the SPIRIT gives life." Well, I give up. I've given you good reasons for study in the languages of Hebrew and Greek, and still you "kick against the ox-goad." We'll just have to agree to disagree, but I will say one more time that I think you are DEAD WRONG! You need to understand the context of the phrase "the LETTER kills, but the SPIRIT gives life."
Rom 7:4-25
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
KJV
The passage you quote actually comes from Paul's letter to the ekkleesia in Korinth (II Corinthians 3:6), but Paul goes into more detail in his letter to the Romans.
2 Cor 3:6
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
KJV
It's not an EITHER/OR situation! It's not the LETTER vs. the SPIRIT! That's just WRONG! It's that the SPIRIT writes His Law on our hearts and USES the LETTER within us! Thus, it is the LETTER ONLY vs. the SPIRIT USING THE LETTER! Get your facts straight and MAYBE, just maybe, you'll come to understand.
[Edited by moderator - removed response to deleted material]
Still in the Messiah's love,
Roy
< Message edited by ta_mosquito -- 9/9/2009 11:20:42 AM >
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: New Heaven and New earth question. - 9/8/2009 1:14:33 AM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
Oseas2...how does the Holy Spirit teach if not by the word of God? Only after man has knowledge of Gods word can the Spirit give guidance and direction. If I do not know that stealing is wrong how can the Spirit convict me of my wrong doings?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: New Heaven and New earth question. - 9/8/2009 9:22:06 AM
|
|
|
Nick_Drake
Posts: 601
Joined: 4/24/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: BiblicalCreationist7
I have wondered this for a while now. But here it is;
Why will there be 12 gates in Heaven that are open? Thank You! =]
No more night.
Rev. 21:25
On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.
The gates of the City were sealed every night and guards posted to warn and guard against the destruction and defilement of the City. But with evil now having been dealt with, there will no longer be a need for the vigilant protection of God's people and the defense of the kingdom from the outside forces of darkness that once threathened to destroy and defile the City of God here on fallen earth.
Nehemiah speaks of his instructions to close and guard the rebuilt City at night and on the Sabbath in Nehemiah 7:1-3 and 13:15-22. The City had been destroyed and defiled because of the lack of vigilance and obedience of the people of God that allowed outside forces to get in and destroy it. That will not happen, nor can it happen, in the age to come. The gates will be open with no threat of destruction or defilement (nighttime) to guard against.
The significance of the Apostles representing gateways, or entryways into the kingdom is the fact that it was through them that the kingdom was opened up to all the nations of the world. A kingdom now open and unhindered to the nations of the world, and with no more need to protect itself from an evil that has been removed from the universe.
_____________________________
'This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Every wineskin should be filled with wine.' Jeremiah 13:12
|
|
|
|
|
RE: New Heaven and New earth question. - 9/8/2009 2:14:42 PM
|
|
|
Retrobyter
Posts: 809
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
|
Shalom, Nick_Drake.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nick_Drake
quote:
ORIGINAL: BiblicalCreationist7
I have wondered this for a while now. But here it is;
Why will there be 12 gates in Heaven that are open? Thank You! =]
No more night.
Rev. 21:25
On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.
The gates of the City were sealed every night and guards posted to warn and guard against the destruction and defilement of the City. But with evil now having been dealt with, there will no longer be a need for the vigilant protection of God's people and the defense of the kingdom from the outside forces of darkness that once threathened to destroy and defile the City of God here on fallen earth.
Nehemiah speaks of his instructions to close and guard the rebuilt City at night and on the Sabbath in Nehemiah 7:1-3 and 13:15-22. The City had been destroyed and defiled because of the lack of vigilance and obedience of the people of God that allowed outside forces to get in and destroy it. That will not happen, nor can it happen, in the age to come. The gates will be open with no threat of destruction or defilement (nighttime) to guard against.
The significance of the Apostles representing gateways, or entryways into the kingdom is the fact that it was through them that the kingdom was opened up to all the nations of the world. A kingdom now open and unhindered to the nations of the world, and with no more need to protect itself from an evil that has been removed from the universe.
You were doing just fine until you added the last paragraph. You don't need to "spiritualize" this prophecy away. It's fine as is. It will be a LITERAL, PHYSICAL CITY with its twelve gates, three on each of its sides, always standing open. This prophecy of the New Jerusalem (Yerushalayim haChadashah, in Hebrew) will be literally fulfilled after the first 1000 years of Yeshua`s reign from old Yerushalayim, Isra'el, while haSatan is locked away in the Abyss. It's not about THIS age at all! Therefore it does not represent "a kingdom now open and unhindered to the nations of the world." Furthermore, since when has the evil "been removed from the universe"? Sorry, but that is not consistent with what we experience in this evil world EVERY DAY! I know that such interpretation is common in today's Christianity, but one should stick to what the Bible actually says and not to fanciful theological speculations.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: New Heaven and New earth question. - 9/8/2009 5:18:41 PM
|
|
|
Nick_Drake
Posts: 601
Joined: 4/24/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Nick_Drake.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nick_Drake
The significance of the Apostles representing gateways, or entryways into the kingdom is the fact that it was through them that the kingdom was opened up to all the nations of the world. A kingdom now open and unhindered to the nations of the world, and with no more need to protect itself from an evil that has been removed from the universe.
You were doing just fine until you added the last paragraph. You don't need to "spiritualize" this prophecy away. It's fine as is. It will be a LITERAL, PHYSICAL CITY with its twelve gates, three on each of its sides, always standing open.
I didn't spiriutalize it away. In your zeal to guard your doctrine you just think I did.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
...This prophecy of the New Jerusalem (Yerushalayim haChadashah, in Hebrew) will be literally fulfilled after the first 1000 years of Yeshua`s reign from old Yerushalayim, Isra'el, while haSatan is locked away in the Abyss. It's not about THIS age at all!
It's about the age after the devil has been released from the abyss and tossed into the lake of fire. Commonly called the 'eternal state' if I'm not mistaken.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
...Therefore it does not represent "a kingdom now open and unhindered to the nations of the world." Furthermore, since when has the evil "been removed from the universe"? Sorry, but that is not consistent with what we experience in this evil world EVERY DAY!
In keeping with the OP, I was speaking from the perspective of the moment of history recorded in Revelation 21 where "a new heaven and a new earth", is spoken about. At that time there will be no evil present that the kingdom should be closely guarded against the dangers of the night. The devil, the prince of darkness, has been cast into the lake of fire and can hinder the kingdom no longer.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
I know that such interpretation is common in today's Christianity, but one should stick to what the Bible actually says and not to fanciful theological speculations.
Some of the biggest theological speculations I've heard come from hardcore endtime literalists, not the spiritualizers. Some of them even know what color carpet they're going to have in their mansion, lol!
I have noticed that some people don't seem to distunguish very well between the thousand year reign and the eternal state in their doctrine when they compare the OT prophets to Revelation. The eternal state is easy to understand. John speaks of it very clearly. It is the thousand year reign that causes all the problems between believers. I don't understand why people have to get raving mad if someone doesn't agree with them as to whether or not the Millennial kingdom is literal or not. And I'm not exaggerating about the raving mad part. I innocently stumbled into the knowledge that several people in my church are there because they simply could not fellowship with others who didn't think the way they did about the 1000 year reign. Totally pathetic.
_____________________________
'This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Every wineskin should be filled with wine.' Jeremiah 13:12
|
|
|
|
|
RE: New Heaven and New earth question. - 9/8/2009 9:52:25 PM
|
|
|
Oseas2
Posts: 99
Joined: 7/31/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
It's not an EITHER/OR situation! It's not the LETTER vs. the SPIRIT! That's just WRONG! It's that the SPIRIT writes His Law on our hearts and USES the LETTER within us! Thus, it is the LETTER ONLY vs. the SPIRIT USING THE LETTER! Get your facts straight and MAYBE, just maybe, you'll come to understand.
Now, now, words are expressed by letters. By the words is identified the spirit which inspired them, for example, it is written that "the prophecy never had its origin in the will of man; but holy men of God spoke as they were moved / carried along / inspired by the Holy Spirit". And the LORD Jesus left so clear: "The words that I speak are SPIRIT..." (John 6:v.63).
When you write your post (or else) I can discern your (his) spirit by your (his) own words, did you understand? This is an operation of the gift of discerniment of spirit.
In Christ JESUS, KING of the kings and LORD of the lords
Oseas
|
|
|
|
|
RE: New Heaven and New earth question. - 9/8/2009 11:09:21 PM
|
|
|
Oseas2
Posts: 99
Joined: 7/31/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
Oseas2...how does the Holy Spirit teach if not by the word of God? Only after man has knowledge of Gods word can the Spirit give guidance and direction. If I do not know that stealing is wrong how can the Spirit convict me of my wrong doings?
Bob
Yes, Bob, and if you see well you will perceive that I did not mean in any place the contrary to what you have asked unto me.
Notice that I said above He is a guide, he (the Holy Spirit) guides to the Truth of God, he is a helper for a true interpretation of the Holy Scriptures (that is the Word of God) , he is who reproves the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of Judgment, he is the Comforter, and so on.
So I see by my words above that we (you and me) are speaking the same language with the same understanding in this matter, you may correct me if I am wrong or if my explaining was not sufficient eventually.
In Christ Jesus
Oseas
< Message edited by Oseas2 -- 9/8/2009 11:24:12 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: New Heaven and New earth question. - 9/9/2009 11:33:44 AM
|
|
|
ta_mosquito
Posts: 10990
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
Status: offline
|
MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
I have done some cleaning up in this thread, removing unwelcome counsel, harassment, and unsafe ministry posts.
Please review the TOS if necessary, and please stick to topic.
Thanks!
Tricia
Forums Moderator
Please do not reply to this message within the forums or chat.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: New Heaven and New earth question. - 9/19/2009 11:13:36 PM
|
|
|
agapeflight
Posts: 120
Joined: 3/29/2009
Status: offline
|
I had a friend years ago who really got juiced about Rev 21 and 22. He saw something in that vision of the New Jerusalem that really was interesting. He suggested that the faithful literally are the New Jerusalem. AT any rate whether it is literal or figurative, or spiritually literal (a separate idea that just literal) the place is going to be great! No need of the sun or moon because the glory of God has illumined it and the Lamb is the lamp (Rev 21:23.) I've often wondered if the Illuminati have some kind of counterfeit doctrine for this, you know because Satan is so envious of the future of the church. But there is the subtle implication that in many ways through the Holy Spirit we are already getting a taste of this. The Lamb in our hearts illumines us.
A few thoughts. I do believe that after the millenium the universe is returned to a state that is far different metaphysically than it is right now. There are hints that the reason for this current paradigm is the existence of sin. Once sin is gone this mortal must put on immortality.
Literalists miss these subtle devotional truths usually (not a put down btw just and observation.) Have you ever considered carefully Genesis 3:24. Suppose that Eden has spiritual components as well as being once a literal physical place on the map. Then reconciliation with God and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit are sort of like ways that we get to reenter the fellowship of Eden. The cherub stationed at the gate would not find us filled with sin, his sword no longer against us.
This all leads to an interesting question. Who is the cherub at the gate? I have heard some suggest it was Satan, but I think the 12 gates and 12 angels hints at God's use of that number and shows us that in that world the cherubs are guardians but that they do not in anyway hinder the people of God from going in and out. but then there is an implication that some cannot enter the city, it is right in the passages. So what will this future universe really look like? I think the Lord gave John this vision so we would know that it is going to be marvelous but I am not sure that every aspect of the New Jerusalem speaks to a literal physical (if you will) reality.
One thing we know that anyone under the curse of sin could not ever again enter Eden for that angel would make sure of it. Even the tree of the knowledge of good and evil has a fork in the road so to speak. Under the curse the law represent by that tree condemns man and leads to his expulsion from the garden. Under grace that knowledge reveals our desparate and eternal need for God and so by grace are we saved through faith, we in Christ again begin tasting the fruit of Eden as we await the second Eden(if you will) and the completion of the time of our forming into the image of the Son of God. A day comes when the Sons of God shall be revealed and the creation is waiting for it with great longing.
Another metaphysical tidbit. Death and Hades are to be thrown in to the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:14). It says in Rev 20:13 that the sea gave up its dead, and death and Hades gave up their dead and all of them were judged.
Where exactly are the dead how are in death as opposed to the dead that are in Hades, and the dead that are in the sea? I have many speculations but the most obvious answer is that they actually are existing in parts of the universe beyond the dimensions that humans inhabit. Jesus said in 1:18 that He now has the keys to death and Hades. Well figuratively yes through faith we escape death and Hades, but Peter also tells us that Christ went and preached to the souls who were in prison waiting since the time of Noah (1 Peter 3:18-20.) The metaphysics of the Bible is very profound and as believers we have no need to doubt that there exists places in God's universe that are outside the realm of our everyday human experiences.
See C.S. Lewis The Great Divorce for another interesting telling, but I suggest looking closely at all such implications in the Bible. I am glad that I know the gospel and that I know the goodness of God. Whatever spiritual things mean I know that He has prepared a place for Me and I am so thankful that He would take the time to do that.
Thank You Lord.
God bless you brothers.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: New Heaven and New earth question. - 9/23/2009 8:57:00 PM
|
|
|
Oseas2
Posts: 99
Joined: 7/31/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
A few thoughts. I do believe that after the millenium the universe is returned to a state that is far different metaphysically than it is right now. There are hints that the reason for this current paradigm is the existence of sin. Once sin is gone this mortal must put on immortality.
The Universe is what it was and will be what it is, there will not be any changing in the nature of Universe, but in the actual nature of man for in this actual nature "that things which are seen are not made of things which do appear". For we know in part, and we prophecy in part, but when is come THAT which is perfect or when perfection comes, then that which is in part will be done away or disappears.
When the true Christians/ believers BE PUT in incorruption and immortality, their physical complexion will be very very different in power and abilities, so their wisdom, and power, and vision, and understanding of the things that they see right now will be of very very different aspect evidently. (Compare this with Luke 20:v.35-36 and Philippians 3:v.20-21)
In Christ JESUS, KING of the kings and LORD of the lords
Oseas
________________________________________________
Psalms 118.v.17: I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD. John 8:v.51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. John 11:v.26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: New Heaven and New earth question. - 9/23/2009 9:49:30 PM
|
|
|
Oseas2
Posts: 99
Joined: 7/31/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
So what will this future universe really look like? I think the Lord gave John this vision so we would know that it is going to be marvelous but I am not sure that every aspect of the New Jerusalem speaks to a literal physical (if you will) reality.
The New Jerusalem will be the Jerusalem of God´s kingdom evidently.
The precious sons of Zion, are comparable to fine gold .
Her Nazarites are purer than snow, they are whiter than milk, they are more ruddy in body than rubies, their polishing is of sapphire.
The kingdom of God is the third heaven and the paradise where the Apostle Paul was caught up in and where he heard unspeakable words which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
BTW, knowing that the kingdom of God is the third heaven, evidently the Dispensation of Grace is/was the second heaven, and the Law and Prophets of the Old Testament was the first heaven. Heavens are regions celestiais created by the Most High God for His sons, God´s men or true Christians / believers.
In Christ JESUS, KING of the kings and LORD of the lords
Oseas
___________________________________________
Job 22:v.23to26 NIV
22 Accept instruction from his mouth and lay up his words in your heart.
23 If you return to the Almighty, you will be restored: If you remove wickedness far from your tent 24 and assign your nuggets to the dust, your gold of Ophir to the rocks in the ravines, 25 then THE ALMIGHT WILL BE YOUR GOLD, the choicest silver for you. 26 Surely then you will find delight in the Almighty and will lift up your face to God.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: New Heaven and New earth question. - 9/24/2009 6:28:41 PM
|
|
|
Retrobyter
Posts: 809
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
|
Shalom, Oseas2 and agapeflight.
Why do we keep on going there? We don't need to have such "metaphysical" or "spiritual" interpretations of Revelation 21 and 22! Just take the words at face value! The New Jerusalem, ho Hierusaleem Kaineen, or Yerushalayim HaChadashah is a REAL, PHYSICAL CITY designed for the New Earth and will LAND on that New Earth! How else can you explain three gates facing north, three gates facing east, three gates facing west, and three gates facing south? How can the city be so aligned if it did NOT land? or if it landed in the wrong spot? Why would it be called "Yerushalayim" at all if it was not intended to REPLACE the old Yerushalayim or Jerusalem?
Just because the city will have no use for the sun or the moon ("And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof." Rev. 21:23, KJV) does NOT mean that the sun and the moon will no longer exist! In fact, Isaiah 66:23 says that WILL exist!
Isa 66:23
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
KJV
How can you have a "new moon" without a MOON?! How can you have a Shabbat or a "sabbath" without a SUN to distinguish day from night as the earth rotates and give a 7-day cycle of a week?! No, the sun and the moon will still exist; they just won't be needed for the city! The rest of the New Earth will still need them. In fact, we have another few verses that say that the sun and the moon will last forever!
Ps 72:7
7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.
KJV
Ps 72:17
17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
KJV
Ps 89:34-38
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
KJV
And, just to add a little spice, we also have an interesting verse in Isaiah 24:23:
Isa 24:23
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
KJV
While the words have been translated with words that suggest anthropomorphisms, other more objective words can be used: The sun is not "ashamed" or red in the face; it is OUTDONE or PALED BY COMPARISON! (Hebrew word is uwvowshah coming from the word buwsh meaning "to pale.") The moon is not "confounded"; it is CONFUSED or MIXED UP (i.e., in its phases)! (Hebrew word is v'chaafraah coming from the word chaafeer meaning "to blush.")
Picture it: We are standing on the New Earth a few thousand miles away from the New Jerusalem. The moon in the sky above us, with the sun below one horizon and the New Jerusalem below the opposite horizon, will have a white crescent phase on one side and a red gibbous phase on the other side! Pretty remarkable!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: New Heaven and New earth question. - 9/24/2009 11:03:01 PM
|
|
|
Oseas2
Posts: 99
Joined: 7/31/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
How can you have a "new moon" without a MOON?! How can you have a Shabbat or a "sabbath" without a SUN to distinguish day from night as the earth rotates and give a 7-day cycle of a week?! No, the sun and the moon will still exist; they just won't be needed for the city! The rest of the New Earth will still need them. In fact, we have another few verses that say that the sun and the moon will last forever!
Do not you know that the MOON is under the feet of the WOMAN? Do not you know that the WOMAN is clothed with sun?
Do not you know that the WOMAN will be protected by the Most High God in a place prepared of God in the wilderness, and having the woman brought forth a man child she will flee into the wilderness where will be feed during 1,260 days?
It is midnight and the present time is the time of the LESSER LIGHT which you cal of moon, did you understand? I foresse you know not the mysteries of God.
In Christ JESUS, KING of the kings and LORD of the lords
Oseas
____________________________________________
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:v.63
|
|
|
|
|
RE: New Heaven and New earth question. - 9/24/2009 11:35:23 PM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
quote:
I have many speculations but the most obvious answer is that they actually are existing in parts of the universe beyond the dimensions that humans inhabit.
It's a spiritual world and I suspect you are right...beyond this dimension...beyond our imagination. People keep looking for it on another Planet or somewhere in space. I think it is likely all around us.
In Messiah...
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: New Heaven and New earth question. - 9/25/2009 2:26:06 AM
|
|
|
Retrobyter
Posts: 809
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
|
Shalom, Oseas2.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Oseas2
quote:
How can you have a "new moon" without a MOON?! How can you have a Shabbat or a "sabbath" without a SUN to distinguish day from night as the earth rotates and give a 7-day cycle of a week?! No, the sun and the moon will still exist; they just won't be needed for the city! The rest of the New Earth will still need them. In fact, we have another few verses that say that the sun and the moon will last forever!
Do not you know that the MOON is under the feet of the WOMAN? Do not you know that the WOMAN is clothed with sun?
Do not you know that the WOMAN will be protected by the Most High God in a place prepared of God in the wilderness, and having the woman brought forth a man child she will flee into the wilderness where will be feed during 1,260 days?
It is midnight and the present time is the time of the LESSER LIGHT which you cal of moon, did you understand? I foresse you know not the mysteries of God.
In Christ JESUS, KING of the kings and LORD of the lords
Oseas
____________________________________________
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:v.63
So? Don't you know that the woman represents the nation Isra'el? That the sun represents Isra'el himself or Ya`acov (Jacob) and that the moon represents Le'ah in this passage? Remember Yosef's (Joseph's) dreams? Don't you know that the man child is Yeshua` the Messiah (Jesus the Christ)? There ARE times in the book of Revelation when symbols are used. These symbols were to identify the woman for us; however, they do NOT directly talk about the sun and the moon as heavenly bodies. Don't you think it might get a little hot to be clothed with the sun? Don't you think that if the woman literally had the moon under her feet she would be ON the moon? No, this is obviously figurative language.
The grammatical/historical method of interpretation (sometimes erroneously called the "literal method of interpretation") to which I adhere does NOT rule out normal, figurative language. It's part of normal literature. I just don't believe that EVERYTHING represents something else and that many portions of Scripture may be taken literally without doing damage to the text! In fact, unless the passage's context specifically says that it is a figure of speech or gives clear signals that it is to be interpreted figuratively, one should use the literal interpretation. Did you understand that?
Foresee (or foresse) all you want; God has given me some insight into the secrets (Greek: musteerioi transliterated as "mysteries") of God. So don't be condescending!
In the Messiah YESHUA`, Melekh haMalakhim v'Adown haAdowniym,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: New Heaven and New earth question. - 9/25/2009 9:46:04 PM
|
|
|
Oseas2
Posts: 99
Joined: 7/31/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
It's a spiritual world and I suspect you are right...beyond this dimension...beyond our imagination. People keep looking for it on another Planet or somewhere in space. I think it is likely all around us.
Speaking of God´s things without a revelation of the Holy Spirit, then is given place to imaginations and is exactly there that the Enemy replace the Holy Spirit and create/ invent fantasies and lies on.
The true Christian / believer don´t believe in imaginations but revelations,
so when appears any preaching the celestial regions/heavens are so far looking to another planet, then the true Christian/believer who knows the Word of God remember immediately by the Holy Spirit in him on what the prophet Isaiah preached also by the Holy Spirit evidently, that is :
Isaiah 40: v. 21-22 - 21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth? 22 It is He that SITTETH UPON THE CIRCLE OF THE EARTH, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: Now, now, the Earth is the unique planet in whole Universe in which God planted a garden, the garden of Eden.
So, by imaginations the Enemy take place in the mind of Christian leading him to distance of God in an imaginary place in the space or infinite. Well, the work of Enemy is to move away the Christian from God.
I rejoice exceendingly by the fact from that you have an important and good understanding when you say: "I think it is likely all around us", in truth God is not only around but in too, i.e. in him which is in Him too. Amen.
In Christ Jesus, KING of the kings and LORD of the lords
Oseas
|
|
|
|
|
RE: New Heaven and New earth question. - 9/25/2009 11:14:02 PM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
quote:
I rejoice exceendingly by the fact from that you have an important and good understanding when you say: "I think it is likely all around us", in truth God is not only around but in too, i.e. in him which is in Him too. Amen.
Yes amen to that brother Oseas...
In Messiah...
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: New Heaven and New earth question. - 9/25/2009 11:49:03 PM
|
|
|
colossus1000
Posts: 56
Joined: 2/21/2009
Status: offline
|
Some say Gog Magog war is in the future last battle after the 1000 reign with Christ, I really, don't know. Im better with the 1335, 1290 and 1260.
I think the Woman is the Church, the 1335 is how many days are left before the return of christ and the resurrection, the same for the 1290 and 1260. Many don't like others preaching at them so I will relay the information this way, the dates are all in the past. The day of the Lord is a 1 Year period, its the last year of this age, the other 2.5 years are the Great Tribulation what I believe is Nuclear War.
Anyone want to refute that the Tribulation period is 2.5 years and the Day of the Lord is 1 year?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: New Heaven and New earth question. - 9/26/2009 10:02:29 AM
|
|
|
ta_mosquito
Posts: 10990
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
Status: offline
|
MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Oseas2 - please email community@salemwebnetwork.com before posting further.
Please allow time for a response. Do not set up any new accounts or post under another handle.
Thank you!
Tricia
Forums Moderator
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: New Heaven and New earth question. - 10/13/2009 8:54:28 PM
|
|
|
WomanOfVictory
Posts: 16
Joined: 10/12/2009
Status: offline
|
Is that what the bible says?
_____________________________
~God's Child, Tyhera~
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
