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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/23/2009 5:40:37 PM
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stellaluna
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
MrFribbles,
quote:
Then please cite Scripture that condemns reading fantasy literature.
I didn't say anything about condemning fantasy literature. There is fantasy literature out there that does not use the following things to move the plot along. I am talking about witchcraft, sorcery, magic, etc.. I don't think you need me to quote the Scriptures that condemn these things. I am sure you can flip open your Bible and find where these things are condemned pretty quickly without my help.
Um...fantasy literature is literature concerned with witchcraft, sorcery, magic, monsters, the paranormal, etc.
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/23/2009 6:45:36 PM
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dubc419
Posts: 180
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quote:
Um...fantasy literature is literature concerned with witchcraft, sorcery, magic, monsters, the paranormal, etc. It is not always concerned with witchcraft and sorcery. Sure, there's plenty of literature out there that is, and some of that is fantasy. I agree with whoever said that fictional characters engaging in fictional magic is not going to lead anyone astray.
I mean, are we just to read historical fiction? Biographies? can nothing have a monster in it? A dragon? Pirates? An epic battle or journey? A force of evil? Are we to read just about daisies and rainbows just because they are godly? I just don't understand what is evil about fictional characters in a fictional world following the rules of that fictional world. What's wrong with imagination?
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/24/2009 2:11:22 PM
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RogerBennett_Fan
Posts: 768
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Roger_BennettFan
quote:
I see it as this: if there is someone doing witchcraft in a movie/book they are "connected" with Satan or demons.
quote:
I do read Lewis's Narnia, and as someone said it does have a witch in book one.
So Narnia is connected with Satan or demons?
quote:
In fact, in The Lion, The Witch, And The Wardrobe, the witch dies at the end because she is evil.
Do you recall what Aslan attributed his resurrection to?
MrFribbles, do you know what Narnia is an allegory of? Let me give you a hint: Alsan is our LORD Jesus and the White Witch is the Devil. When Aslan was killed by the White Witch on the Stone Table, that represented our Lord dying on the cross. Just as the White Witch thought she killed Aslan once and for all, Satan also thought the Lord Jesus died on the cross of Calvary. That being said, the White Witch then thought she had the rule over the kingdom of Narnia. Just like Satan thought he would reign because Jesus was dead. So when Aslan was resurrected, that is a picture of our Lord's resurrection. We all know that John 10 says that only Christ had the power to lay down His life AND TAKE IT BACK AGAIN. That's the power in which C. S. Lewis had in mind when writing Narnia.
FYI . . .
Deep Magic
Words of Deep Magic are inscribed on the Stone Table. Deep Magic symbolizes the ultimate right and wrong, and has existed since the dawn of time.
Deeper Magic from Before the Dawn of Time
This is magic the White Witch does not understand. Only Aslan fully comprehends it. It is a mercy that surpasses human understanding
Knowing this, we can fully understand that there are pictures of Satan and demons in Narnia. Because you cannot have an allegory of salvation without the reality of both God and Satan.
One question for Harry Potter readers: if the main theme of that series is NOT wizards, witches, and witchcraft . . . why is it that all you see on advertisements on TV is kids in black robes waving wands around turning things into other objects? Why are they learning sacrifice, love and friendship at a school that teaches witchcraft?
I know THREE elementary school teachers who have told me that ever since those books came out that all their kids do at recess is play witches and warlocks. They are zapping one another and putting spells and hexes on one another. And it is not in the spirit of love, friendship and sacrifice. That's just the obvious . . . what about the deeper spiritual applications? How do you think ppl become oppressed and/or possesed by demons? It's by opening the mind, eyes and ears to evil influences. The Word of God tells us to think on thing that are pure, true, and lovely. (Phil 4:8)
As far as the thought that one can reading witchcraft doesn't mean they practice it. That is the type of thinking that gets one into trouble. For example: That is what most who get caught up in pornography think - Oh, what will it hurt to just take a look. Next thing you know they are caught up in participating in the immorality and it just spirals down from there. That is an undeniable truth. Just ask ANYONE who has come out of it.
God created us with an amazing mind, let's use it for His glory! Let's not ignore the BATTLE!!!! 
_____________________________
"Let's be known for what we do believe in rather than what we don't." - Roger Bennett
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/24/2009 3:17:50 PM
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Saved_2_Serve
Posts: 87
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cherish405
This could be put in books or movies, but seeing as I spend time here, I thought this the better place to put it.
Firstly, I want to say that I don't want this to become a spiritual (or other) debate, or a place where people point fingers at each other. Conflict is not the point of this thread. It's just a place to try and help me understand.
I see people have been reading or watching the 'Harry Potter' movies/books, 'The Golden Compass', 'Twilight' and the like.
These movies/books contain magic, sorcery, witchcraft and the like. The bible very clearly states that we should stay away from those things. Why then are we watching/reading them?
It's a personal choice of mine not to watch/read these kinds of things. I was involved in the occult and new age before I became a Christian. Maybe God has given me extra grace in that particular area to not watch/read those things.
I'm not pointing my finger at anybody or thinking that those who watch/read those things are going to burn in hell for doing it. I just don't understand why people would, knowing that scripture says that we are to stay away from those things, continue to watch/read them.  
As I've said, I don't want this to be a nasty debate or to create conflict. I just want to try to understand.
Why do people read such things? I’d say simply b/c we have a choice and the temptation is greater than our will power to resist and follow the Word of God - which you aptly pointed out says we should stay away from those things. Bottom line IMO, is that people do not realize the implications of what these things mean, if they did, they would never pick it up or let their eyes behold it.
Speaking as one coming out of the occult,
You can easily recognize the evil whereas everyone else maybe be blinded to it - especially when it is packaged as a cream puff with the dangers of a rattlesnake!
It’s packaged to look innocent, and those who do not read the Word of God and aren’t firmly grounded in what it says, do not realize the dangers, often times, until it’s too late. People are intrigued by mystery. That is something cloaked in mystery - only those “on the inside” can truly know what it is all about. People need to wake up to the hidden dangers, put on their spiritual armor and live according to the Word of God.
In it’s packing, it appears cool and harmless, but if we truly understood what it truly pictures and portrays, we would be repulsed by it. So what is witchcraft and what is it’s purpose? We know it is in direct defiance of God and that those who practice it worship Satan. Some are more subtle than others. Wicca is very friendly, very new age. Then there are those who are outright obvious in what they do, such as the occult. Though packaged differently, the end result is the same. What a polar opposite to Christianity are the 'Harry Potter' movies/books, 'The Golden Compass' and 'Twilight'.
Anything that is in direct defiance of a Holy God who sent His only Son to die for you, so you wouldn’t have to spend an eternity in hell …. We had better take care to avoid. I imagine the OP can grasp the seriousness of the nature of the issue.
Man cannot serve two masters.
I think more of an interesting question is WHY would anyone want to look into Satan, his beings or their practices? Does he care for your well being? Does he actually care about you? No, the only reason he is interested in you and your soul is b/c he knows his end and wants to take as many with him as he can. Don’t be caught in his folly.
To all Harry Potter Fans, two questions off the top of my head to ponder would be:
Why is magic purposely spelled with a “K” in her books? What is the significance????
Why is there so much thought put into using occult terms and rituals if the focus is love, sacrifice, friendship and standing up for what is right?
And please, let's not be so foolish as to get into saying we can't read the Bible b/c it speaks of evil or the Devil...and can see there are those on this thread who would love to take it that direction rather than adhere to the question at hand. If we read the Bible and then go out an read these things, we are contrary to what the book of James says, which is not only to hear the Word of God, but to do it ..... "be ye doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves" ... James 1:22 Let us not forget what we've been saved from.
GREAT question cherish405!!!
_____________________________
Jesus became what we are so we can become like He is.
". . . so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." Romans 5:19
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/24/2009 3:30:26 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4637
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quote:
Why do people read such things? I’d say simply b/c we have a choice and the temptation is greater than our will power to resist and follow the Word of God - which you aptly pointed out says we should stay away from those things. Bottom line IMO, is that people do not realize the implications of what these things mean, if they did, they would never pick it up or let their eyes behold it No, the Word of God states we are not to participate in "those things". Do you have a reference that specifically prohibits reading fictional literature about those things?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/24/2009 3:51:47 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4170
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved_2_Serve
To all Harry Potter Fans, two questions off the top of my head to ponder would be:
Why is magic purposely spelled with a “K” in her books? What is the significance????
It isn't.
quote:
Why is there so much thought put into using occult terms and rituals if the focus is love, sacrifice, friendship and standing up for what is right?
Using twisted up Latin words is the same as occult terms?
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/24/2009 3:55:24 PM
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stellaluna
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Also, everyone knows what Narnia is about and who Aslan is. It's still called magic.
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/24/2009 4:32:00 PM
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stellaluna
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AND...
quote:
ORIGINAL: RogerBennett_Fan
I know THREE elementary school teachers who have told me that ever since those books came out that all their kids do at recess is play witches and warlocks. They are zapping one another and putting spells and hexes on one another. And it is not in the spirit of love, friendship and sacrifice.
Elementary school students have no business reading or watching Harry Potter. That's poor parenting, not sinful writing.
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/25/2009 2:12:15 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2333
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quote:
MrFribbles, do you know what Narnia is an allegory of?
Yes.
quote:
Words of Deep Magic are inscribed on the Stone Table. Deep Magic symbolizes the ultimate right and wrong, and has existed since the dawn of time.
So let me get this straight. You take issue with the fact that Potter uses magic throughout, but you have no problem with Lewis calling an allegory for the resurrection of our Lord a form of magic. It seems to me, if your problem is with magic, then you should have a much bigger problem with an author calling the works of God magic.
quote:
One question for Harry Potter readers: if the main theme of that series is NOT wizards, witches, and witchcraft . . . why is it that all you see on advertisements on TV is kids in black robes waving wands around turning things into other objects?
I think you're confusing "theme" and "setting." Is the theme of Star Trek flying around in space, shooting phasers and scanning with tricorders? Is the theme of To Kill a Mockingbird southern towns, practicing law and going to school?
quote:
As far as the thought that one can reading witchcraft doesn't mean they practice it. That is the type of thinking that gets one into trouble. For example: That is what most who get caught up in pornography think - Oh, what will it hurt to just take a look. Next thing you know they are caught up in participating in the immorality and it just spirals down from there. That is an undeniable truth. Just ask ANYONE who has come out of it.
This is an erroneous comparison. Looking at porn, even just a peek, is sinful already. Reading about magic, on the other hand, is not sinful in and of itself.
Now, if you were to say that just one little spell is wrong, I'd say amen, absolutely. But nobody here is advocating practicing magic.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/25/2009 11:32:10 PM
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E_Lin
Posts: 1099
Joined: 9/14/2008
From: Cincinnati, OH
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quote:
One question for Harry Potter readers: if the main theme of that series is NOT wizards, witches, and witchcraft . . . why is it that all you see on advertisements on TV is kids in black robes waving wands around turning things into other objects?
It's called advertising. If the ads were about kids learning positive values, they (the adolescent target audience) likely wouldn't want to see it.
quote:
Why are they learning sacrifice, love and friendship at a school that teaches witchcraft? They learn those things from their interactions with each other, much as what would happen in the real world... Once again, I must reiterate that the school is a plot device. But then again you might have caught that had you read the books or seen the movies.
quote:
I know THREE elementary school teachers who have told me that ever since those books came out that all their kids do at recess is play witches and warlocks. They are zapping one another and putting spells and hexes on one another. I am having a hard time not making light of this, but how can you be surprised to discover elementary age children playing make-believe? Unless those kids have really learned how to cast real spells on each other, I don't see that having an imagination is that big of a problem. I recall doing much the same things as a child, and I fought off my nemeses with not only spells but also pretend swords and guns, according to what the game was. Oh, and lasers and lightsabers, since Star Wars was big back then.quote:
And it is not in the spirit of love, friendship and sacrifice. No, it's in the spirit of playing, with no thought whatsoever given to being as evil as possible and hoping to become a servant of the devil.
_____________________________
"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom? Quite astonishing..."
- Death (from the book "Hogfather" by Terry Pratchett)
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/26/2009 1:52:49 PM
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RogerBennett_Fan
Posts: 768
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quote:
So let me get this straight. You take issue with the fact that Potter uses magic throughout, but you have no problem with Lewis calling an allegory for the resurrection of our Lord a form of magic. It seems to me, if your problem is with magic, then you should have a much bigger problem with an author calling the works of God magic.
No, that is incorrect. I don't have a problem with magic - I have a problem with WITCHCRAFT AND SORCERY. As someone already stated: magic is just a manipulation of reality. On the other hand, witchcraft is a very real thing - if you don't believe me, visit Africa.
quote:
I think you're confusing "theme" and "setting." Is the theme of Star Trek flying around in space, shooting phasers and scanning with tricorders? Is the theme of To Kill a Mockingbird southern towns, practicing law and going to school?
So I can write a book that has immorality as the "setting" but as long as the "theme" is about love, friendship and sacrifice - that makes it okay? (I don't think so! And you will have a hard time convincing God of that too.)
quote:
This is an erroneous comparison. Looking at porn, even just a peek, is sinful already. Reading about magic, on the other hand, is not sinful in and of itself.
Now, if you were to say that just one little spell is wrong, I'd say amen, absolutely. But nobody here is advocating practicing magic.
Deuteronomy 18:10-12 says, "There shall not be found among you . . .a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard . . .For ALL that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord." Notice: It does not say it's okay as long as YOU'RE not doing it - it says if THEY ARE doing it, it shall not be found among you! And yes, even if that "among you" is just in a book, it's still an abomination to the Lord.
I have heard the word abomination explained this way: if something is an abomination to the Lord, it is just as bad as falling down and worshiping an idol. To put this in context to our discussion, that means, anything that has to do with witchcraft (whether that be practicing it or reading about it) in the sight of God, is as if you were worshipping it. It's bad stuff. If you are having a problem with that, which obviously, you are trying to explain it away or take it out of context - then you really need to talk to the Lord about it. It's the Word of God and He is the author.
_____________________________
"Let's be known for what we do believe in rather than what we don't." - Roger Bennett
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/26/2009 2:15:26 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4637
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quote:
And yes, even if that "among you" is just in a book, it's still an abomination to the Lord. What a preposterous eisegesis, RBF! Do you expect God to create little feet for the books and DVDs to walk away from our homes as God "drives them out from before us"?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/26/2009 6:42:14 PM
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Random
Posts: 753
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: Zipperhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RogerBennett_Fan
Deuteronomy 18:10-12 says, "There shall not be found among you . . .a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard . . .For ALL that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord."
Note that it doesn't say "a fictional witch, a fictional charmer, or a fictional consulter with familiar spirits." Nor does it say 'all that READ ABOUT people that PRETEND to do these things are an abomination unto the Lord."
I think your interpretation is a bit of a stretch.
_____________________________
Check out my blog:
http://finance4nerds.com
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/26/2009 9:48:29 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2333
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quote:
No, that is incorrect. I don't have a problem with magic - I have a problem with WITCHCRAFT AND SORCERY. As someone already stated: magic is just a manipulation of reality.
So what's the difference between magic and, say, me typing right now? The keyboard is real, and I'm manipulating it - is that magic?
quote:
So I can write a book that has immorality as the "setting" but as long as the "theme" is about love, friendship and sacrifice - that makes it okay?
Can you think of any book that is completely devoid of any form of immorality?
quote:
Deuteronomy 18:10-12 says, "There shall not be found among you . . .a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard . . .For ALL that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord." Notice: It does not say it's okay as long as YOU'RE not doing it - it says if THEY ARE doing it, it shall not be found among you! And yes, even if that "among you" is just in a book, it's still an abomination to the Lord.
Please defend your claim that "among you" includes books. Also, please explain why you do not object to Narnia, even though is clearly contains witchcraft. You'll notice it also does not say, "as long as those doing these things are portrayed as villains, it's good."
quote:
I have heard the word abomination explained this way: if something is an abomination to the Lord, it is just as bad as falling down and worshiping an idol.
So when I eat shrimp, I'm worshiping it?
quote:
If you are having a problem with that, which obviously, you are trying to explain it away or take it out of context - then you really need to talk to the Lord about it. It's the Word of God and He is the author.
Except from my point of view, you're the one taking things out of context. And I'm not alone.
And I have talked with God about it, and He hasn't given me any reason to not enjoy Potter.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/26/2009 11:06:50 PM
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cherish405
Posts: 32180
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: The Land Down Under
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
cherish405,
First, I want to make it clear that I respect your conviction to abstain from fantasy-style fiction. I'm not trying to convince you to run out and by the seven Potter books.
Second, thanks for answering my question.
quote:
I was asked what kind of books I like to read. I like historical fiction. People crossing the prairies to make a better life for themselves. Canada around the time the Mounties began. The 1920's Great Depression. Early life in England/Ireland etc. Classics like Jane Eyre etc.
Do any of the characters in these books lie? Cheat? Steal? Strike others in anger?
Wow, in light of this discussion, it seems it's not safe to read anything. Historical fiction, sci fi, fantasy, classics etc, etc.
_____________________________
From this time forth, with the powers vested in me, this post serves as public notice of the issuance of one unrevocable lisence to cherish405 to have special dispensation in the matter of drive-by huggings as she sees fit. ~rayofson~
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/27/2009 12:13:03 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2333
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Wow, in light of this discussion, it seems it's not safe to read anything. Historical fiction, sci fi, fantasy, classics etc, etc.
That was sort of my point. I'm all for personal convictions. If someone feels led by the Holy Spirit to abstain from certain elements (like, say, magic) in fiction, that's fine. But to say that every Christian should abstain from reading fiction with magic, because magic is wrong, is an erroneous argument. If one goes that way, then they must also advocate every Christian abstain from every form of fiction, unless a story can be found free from any form of immorality.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/27/2009 11:29:45 PM
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E_Lin
Posts: 1099
Joined: 9/14/2008
From: Cincinnati, OH
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Wow, in light of this discussion, it seems it's not safe to read anything. Historical fiction, sci fi, fantasy, classics etc, etc.
That was sort of my point. I'm all for personal convictions. If someone feels led by the Holy Spirit to abstain from certain elements (like, say, magic) in fiction, that's fine. But to say that every Christian should abstain from reading fiction with magic, because magic is wrong, is an erroneous argument. If one goes that way, then they must also advocate every Christian abstain from every form of fiction, unless a story can be found free from any form of immorality.
^
^
^
^
What he said...
What MrFribbles just wrote, I could not have put it any better than that.
_____________________________
"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom? Quite astonishing..."
- Death (from the book "Hogfather" by Terry Pratchett)
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/28/2009 12:12:58 AM
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techne
Posts: 384
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Wow, in light of this discussion, it seems it's not safe to read anything. Historical fiction, sci fi, fantasy, classics etc, etc.
That was sort of my point. I'm all for personal convictions. If someone feels led by the Holy Spirit to abstain from certain elements (like, say, magic) in fiction, that's fine. But to say that every Christian should abstain from reading fiction with magic, because magic is wrong, is an erroneous argument. If one goes that way, then they must also advocate every Christian abstain from every form of fiction, unless a story can be found free from any form of immorality.
let alone the fact that, as fiction, all literature (aside from the bible of course) is a lie.
then again, that was the position plato took. or was it socrates? aristotle? ptolemy? biff?
but waitaminnit! they're pagans so they can't be right either...oi! what to do?
_____________________________
The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. -Mark Twain
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/28/2009 12:32:40 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2333
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quote:
then again, that was the position plato took. or was it socrates? aristotle? ptolemy? biff?
but waitaminnit! they're pagans so they can't be right either...oi! what to do?
And obviously, only an immature, worldly Christian would quote from a non-Christian source.
...Oh, wait... Acts 17:28... So much for that idea.
(and just because tone and mood are so hard to convey online- yes, my post is meant to be a light joke)
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: I just don't understand... - 9/28/2009 12:42:27 PM
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HaveMercyonUS
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I believe there is a big difference from being involved in and practicing witchcraft and magic etc. and just reading books that might contain some of these things. In many books that contain these things it is usually portrayed as good vs. evil or God vs. Satan.
If we were to completely avoid these subjects we would never even read our children fairytales or allow them to watch most movies or cartoons like Snow White, Cinderella, the Swan Princess or even some of the Veggie Tales and Bibleman.
I think if a person has a propensity to become overly obsessed with the magic and witchcraft contained books or movies, then of course they should avoid books or movies that contain these subjects.
< Message edited by HaveMercyonUS -- 9/28/2009 12:54:14 PM >
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