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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/16/2009 8:27:21 AM
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drmark
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quote:
So then coffee, cell phones, energy drinks or pills are all sins then. Just trying to get what you are saying. I understand endangering others being a sin, but to blanket say anything that alters a person is a sin i don't understand. No, that's not what I posted. Try reading the plain sense words instead of flying off the handle to find legalism where it is not to be found.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/16/2009 12:20:25 PM
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cposey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
So I think we need to add cell phone usage to our list of sins. Anything that deliberately interferes with the safe operation of a 3000 pound vehicle travelling at 60 mph which endangers the lives of others is sin... 
This is what you said, that is why i said i hoped you were joking. you said anything that interferes. i just wanted to make sure what you were trying to say. I never called you legalistic and i certainly didn't fly off of the handle. As far as your plain sense words, that is why i asked what you were trying to say.
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/16/2009 5:55:44 PM
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Bluethread
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Maybe we should revisit the definition of the word sin. Sin is anything that is not Adonai's preference. The eternal effect of sin is serious business. However, some sins carry greater risk in this life than do others. It is always best to do what Adonai prefers, but we are not always clear on what that is in all circumstances. I think drmark is saying that he believes driving impaired in any fashion is tempting Adonai. Therefore, it behooves us to avoid anything that impairs our judgement while driving, even if that is just a cup of coffee.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/16/2009 11:24:12 PM
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DoveMinistries
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You are in sin if you have not accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. After that He said just believe in Him and to keep His word and believe He who sent Him. Ohh I also believe He said its Finished ....
God Bless
R. Dove
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/17/2009 1:28:05 AM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DoveMinistries
You are in sin if you have not accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. After that He said just believe in Him and to keep His word and believe He who sent Him. Ohh I also believe He said its Finished ....
God Bless
R. Dove
However, there is the rub. What is "His word". Is it just what is printed in red letters in some bibles, does it also include the teaching of His disciples and if He is Adonai, was he not the author of HaTorah? Also, that is a very broad interpretation of the phrase, "It is finished." There are a wide variety of interpretations for that phrase and many of them have nothing to do with the activities we are discussing here.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/17/2009 4:50:08 AM
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agapist
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Having been a big smoker and drinker (and gambler), I can only speak for my motives: self-condemnation.
The answer to all these questions is found in spirit. There is no hard and fast formulae for these questions. There is a season for everything.
One of the marks of spiritual maturity is to be at peace with ambiquity.
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/17/2009 1:03:59 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
One of the marks of spiritual maturity is to be at peace with ambiquity.
Can you substantiate this principle from the Scriptures?
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/17/2009 3:35:27 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Can you substantiate this principle from the Scriptures? Doubtful - the neither the word "ambiguity" or "ambiguous" occur anywhere in Scripture. Sounds more like agapist's philosophical mumbo-jumbo.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/17/2009 5:42:26 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: tuct
Tell me your ideas......I have always been against tatoos overall. The majority of tatoos that I see, usually dipict either some form of symbol of something a christian should never have seen or done, let alone put on your body, or just plain vanity, that someone feels they need to look better or tougher or prettier. Whatever the case may be, I feel that If you are going to mark your body, it should stand for who you are and have a deep meaning of what you believe. Wouldn't it be a great witnessing tool, if a stranger saw you and said, Hey that guy must be a Christian, look at that tatoo. I have softened my approach on the whole tatoo thing, and wondered if I should get a cross on my shoulder, with wording underneath stating, HE LIVES.
That is a justification many use for getting tattoos. However, there is nothing in the Scriptures that encourage that. If one wishes to make a fashion statement for Adonai and the Scriptures, we are given specific things that we can do in the Scriptures already. It is too bad that most of the same people who justify tattoos see doing those things specifically mentioned in the Scriptures as a burden.
You condemn tattoos, yet condone drinking? I don't get it...
Alcoholic kills millions of innocent people every year world wide. It uses the good intentions of individuals ("oh, I just won't get drunk, so I'm ok") and destroys lives.
Now, although I also do not personally condone tattoos, at least it can be said that tattoos affect no one but yourself. So I' curious why you condemn tattoos but at the same time condone a drink that controls and kills people.
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/17/2009 7:15:39 PM
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DoveMinistries
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quote:
What is "His word".
Mark 12:29-31 His words Look at this Dave
John 15:4-6 His words Look at this one to.
quote:
Also, that is a very broad interpretation of the phrase, "It is finished." There are a wide variety of interpretations for that phrase and many of them have nothing to do with the activities we are discussing here.
Galatians 3
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
By the blood and only by the blood are we saved, Not by anything we do but by what He did.
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
For it is not for us to judge, that is His job. We are to: Love one another as He loves us. We can not disqualify anyone are we might be judged ourself.
God Bless
R. Dove
< Message edited by DoveMinistries -- 10/17/2009 7:38:53 PM >
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/17/2009 11:42:38 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DoveMinistries
quote:
What is "His word".
Mark 12:29-31 His words Look at this Dave
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
Yes there are no greater commandments than the Shema(Duet. 6) and the commandment relating to warning one's neighbor regarding bad behavior (Lev 19). So, when you say "His words" do you mean HaTorah?
quote:
John 15:4-6 His words Look at this one to.
"Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
This leads to another question. What does it mean to remain in Him? If it means remain in His teachings, then that must be HaTorah.
quote:
quote:
Also, that is a very broad interpretation of the phrase, "It is finished." There are a wide variety of interpretations for that phrase and many of them have nothing to do with the activities we are discussing here.
Galatians 3
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
By the blood and only by the blood are we saved, Not by anything we do but by what He did.
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
For it is not for us to judge, that is His job. We are to: Love one another as He loves us. We can not disqualify anyone are we might be judged ourself.
Who is talking about salvation here? If you interpret "It is finished." to mean the requirements for our salvation, I agree. However, if you interpret "It is finished." to mean our need to refer to prior revelation for guidance, I think you are saddly mistaken.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/17/2009 11:48:47 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/18/2009 11:50:15 AM
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cposey
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I have stated this earlier, but if we are saved, than we live by faith through grace. We are to not follow the law, but live by the Holy Spirit. We are free from the condemnation, guilt, shame and death that the laws upholds. If we commit one sin, than we commit them all. If we are truly free from the law and live by faith, than who is anyone to say this and that is a sin. We have a indivdual relationship with Christ for a reason. I can guarantee you that if you live by the Spirit, than a sin will conflict inside you. You will be convicted of your wrongdoing. Why do we focus so much on the do's and don'ts. I can tell ya why, cause it is easier to point out a fault, than to love one another unconditionally. Loving unconditionally is our purpose and life, not the law. Be as focused and hardlined on these things and see if you're life becomes like Jesus.
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/18/2009 1:02:36 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1766
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
I have stated this earlier, but if we are saved, than we live by faith through grace. We are to not follow the law, but live by the Holy Spirit. We are free from the condemnation, guilt, shame and death that the laws upholds. If we commit one sin, than we commit them all. If we are truly free from the law and live by faith, than who is anyone to say this and that is a sin. We have a indivdual relationship with Christ for a reason. I can guarantee you that if you live by the Spirit, than a sin will conflict inside you. You will be convicted of your wrongdoing. Why do we focus so much on the do's and don'ts. I can tell ya why, cause it is easier to point out a fault, than to love one another unconditionally. Loving unconditionally is our purpose and life, not the law. Be as focused and hardlined on these things and see if you're life becomes like Jesus.
Yet there are clear absolute principles, guidelines, commandments, and truths that we are to objectively obey in a "do or don't" manner. The Holy Spirit leads, but this doesn't mean that we will always feel guilty when we do wrong. Yes there are do's and don'ts in a Christian's life.
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 2:53:36 AM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
You condemn tattoos, yet condone drinking? I don't get it...
Alcoholic kills millions of innocent people every year world wide. It uses the good intentions of individuals ("oh, I just won't get drunk, so I'm ok") and destroys lives.
Now, although I also do not personally condone tattoos, at least it can be said that tattoos affect no one but yourself. So I' curious why you condemn tattoos but at the same time condone a drink that controls and kills people.
I do not know whether you meant to use the word alcohol or alcoholics. This significantly changes the meaning of the statement. Alcohol does not kill in and of itself. It is physically inanimate. Some may use alcohol to kill, or may kill when impaired by alcohol. However, alcohol can also be used to heal. Both Shlomo and Paul speak of this. (Pr 31:6) "Give beer to those who are perishing, wine to those who are in anguish;" (1Ti 5:23) "Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses." There are many references in the Scripture with regard to the proper use of alcohol.
Regarding marking oneself, as far as I can tell, there is only one place where it is refered to and that is not in a positive light. (Lev. 19:27-29) "Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard. Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD. Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness." I do not condemn those who choose to marked themselves. I do not have that authority. Only Adonai can condemn someone. All I am doing is stating what it appears Adonai is saying with regard to what is being discussed.
The two primary reasons that have been presented for marking oneself are to differentiate oneself and to identify oneselves as one of Adonai's people or attract curiousity that provides one with the opportunity to represent Adonai as one of His people. This just happens to be the point of Lev. 19. Here Adonai lists some of the things that differentiate Adonai's people from the nations. In this regard, marking oneself is no different from any of the other characteristics. It is no worse that cutting the corners of one's beard and it is no better than pimping out one's daughter. These are all practices of the nations. So, you see there are things that one can do to differentiate oneself and identify oneself as one of Adonia's people. Marking oneself is not one of them. In fact marking oneself serves to differentiate one from Adonai's people.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 10:46:55 AM
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cposey
Posts: 307
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
I have stated this earlier, but if we are saved, than we live by faith through grace. We are to not follow the law, but live by the Holy Spirit. We are free from the condemnation, guilt, shame and death that the laws upholds. If we commit one sin, than we commit them all. If we are truly free from the law and live by faith, than who is anyone to say this and that is a sin. We have a indivdual relationship with Christ for a reason. I can guarantee you that if you live by the Spirit, than a sin will conflict inside you. You will be convicted of your wrongdoing. Why do we focus so much on the do's and don'ts. I can tell ya why, cause it is easier to point out a fault, than to love one another unconditionally. Loving unconditionally is our purpose and life, not the law. Be as focused and hardlined on these things and see if you're life becomes like Jesus.
Yet there are clear absolute principles, guidelines, commandments, and truths that we are to objectively obey in a "do or don't" manner. The Holy Spirit leads, but this doesn't mean that we will always feel guilty when we do wrong. Yes there are do's and don'ts in a Christian's life.
There are alot of do's and don'ts that we do not follow as Christians. The law that was set up for HIS people contains a lot of things we don't do today. The Holy Spirit does way more than just guide. If we live by the Spirit, it will always conflict with wrongdoing. How can we say Jesus lives in and through and not expect wrongdoing to not conflict. It is more than just do this and do that. God wants us to understand and grow towards HIS heart. Learning the heart behind the law is how Jesus fulfilled it. The truth will set us free. The law binds us to condemnation.
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 11:01:39 AM
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drmark
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quote:
There are alot of do's and don'ts that we do not follow as Christians. Such as? Can any of the Ten Commandments be broken without it being sin? How do you personally distinguish those behaviors which we should do from those which we should not do, cposey?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 11:12:26 AM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
There are alot of do's and don'ts that we do not follow as Christians. Such as? Can any of the Ten Commandments be broken without it being sin? How do you personally distinguish those behaviors which we should do from those which we should not do, cposey?
Unless one keeps the actual sabbath, Friday eve until Saturday eve (which I do not, in case you wonder), then one can only rationalize keeping Sunday as a substitute for the sabbath. There is no declaration in the NT clearly making Sunday the new sabbath.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 11:23:28 AM
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drmark
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quote:
There is no declaration in the NT clearly making Sunday the new sabbath. More importantly, there is no declaration in the Bible establishing "Saturday" as the seventh day of the week...
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 2:09:34 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6350
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From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
There is no declaration in the NT clearly making Sunday the new sabbath. More importantly, there is no declaration in the Bible establishing "Saturday" as the seventh day of the week...
Except in the OT.
Really, now, DrMark, you cannot honestly make such a statement with a serious face. You don't even have to go past Genesis to see why it's the seventh day that is holy. Or do you think that Jews all over the world shifted the day on which they set aside as holy to Friday-Saturday and they and Messianic Jews everwhere are now confused?
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 2:22:30 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Except in the OT. Chapter and verse, please that uses the word "Saturday".
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 3:36:21 PM
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cposey
Posts: 307
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
There are alot of do's and don'ts that we do not follow as Christians. Such as? Can any of the Ten Commandments be broken without it being sin? How do you personally distinguish those behaviors which we should do from those which we should not do, cposey?
As far as the Ten Commandments, don't kill would be one. Is every soldier who has killed sinning when he does it?
Any of the sacrificial laws would be an example of what we don't do.
Personally it doesn't matter what i distinguish. It is the Holy Spirit and HIs word that teaches and guides me. To some degree i try and see through His eyes the heart behind the law. If you seek the truth, you will find it. That is a promise God gives to us. Anything beyond what is written in His word to be meditated on, i put my faith in Jesus adn His Spirit to guide, correct, teach adn restore me to what God would have me to be.
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 3:45:08 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6350
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From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Except in the OT. Chapter and verse, please that uses the word "Saturday".
You can call it Finklesteinday, if you want, but the seventh day, not the first day, is prescribed as the day to keep holy.
No matter how anyone plays around with it, most Christians, myself included, at best only keep 9/10ths of the Ten Commandments.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 3:45:40 PM
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drmark
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quote:
As far as the Ten Commandments, don't kill would be one. Is every soldier who has killed sinning when he does it? I'm sorry, cposey, but the Hebrew word is best translated "murder" which is the willful killing of an innocent person and has nothing to do with combat duties in war.
quote:
Any of the sacrificial laws would be an example of what we don't do. Of course, Hebrews 9:11-10:18 make it quite clear that Jesus serves as our once-for-all sacrifice. BTW, these sacrificial laws are not part of the Ten Commandments.
quote:
Personally it doesn't matter what i distinguish. It is the Holy Spirit and HIs word that teaches and guides me. Okay, now we are getting somewhere. I actually agree with you on this point, but does that mean there are no "universal" sins which are wrong for any and every Christian to commit?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 3:47:00 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6350
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
As far as the Ten Commandments, don't kill would be one. Is every soldier who has killed sinning when he does it?
The word "kill" actually is better translated "murder", and in most versions it is. There are specific commands to take another humans life.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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