|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 3:50:17 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
You can call it Finklesteinday, if you want, but the seventh day, not the first day, is prescribed as the day to keep holy. Why should we not keep every day holy, Eutychus? I'm sorry, but I really don't agree with this concept of labelling going to church on Sunday a sin. Maybe I will visit the appropriate thread and gain some insight because I'm not getting it here.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 3:56:11 PM
|
|
|
Eutychus
Posts: 6377
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Personally it doesn't matter what i distinguish. It is the Holy Spirit and HIs word that teaches and guides me. Okay, now we are getting somewhere. I actually agree with you on this point, but does that mean there are no "universal" sins which are wrong for any and every Christian to commit?
Absolutely. Jesus, the Lord of Sabbath, even made firmer demands on Christiand by including tithers without mercy, murderers by thought, adulterers of the mind, outward observers of the Law with unclean hearts. He made obedience to be more than external keepers of the letter, He made it to include the motives, intentions, the effections - and more - of the heart.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 4:00:08 PM
|
|
|
Eutychus
Posts: 6377
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Why should we not keep every day holy, Eutychus? I'm sorry, but I really don't agree with this concept of labelling going to church on Sunday a sin. Maybe I will visit the appropriate thread and gain some insight because I'm not getting it here.
I didn't call going to church on Sunday a sin, I merely reject the notion that most Christians keep the ten commandments (even the believers that can recite them) .
Keeping every day holy is fine as can be, DrMark, but if you work on any of them according to the OT commands regarding the sabbath, then you have built a rule that only a filthy rich believer can keep.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 4:00:22 PM
|
|
|
cposey
Posts: 314
Joined: 8/20/2009
Status: offline
|
you see know how to look at the heart of the law. suppose a new christian reads the bible without knowing a translation issue, God's word translates to everyone despite their knowledge. Does a soldier know that the person on the opposite side is innocent?
Anyway as far the law goes sacrificial laws are still the law. Jesus came to fulfill all of the law didn't he?
The law was established to keep the children of God from sinning. Jesus fulfilled this by his victory over sin and death. Grace and faith adn the Holy Spirit extended to everyone who believes in Jesus is the fulfillment. We are to obey His commands, so in a sense there are universal sins. However to teach personal convictions as being sins is false. And there are a lot of things to say about false teachers. No enuendo intended there. Even with those things that are in the bible it is the upmost importance that we ask God to teach us His ways adn HIs understandings, so that all the glory will belong to Him.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 4:07:09 PM
|
|
|
Eutychus
Posts: 6377
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
you see know how to look at the heart of the law. suppose a new christian reads the bible without knowing a translation issue, God's word translates to everyone despite their knowledge. Does a soldier know that the person on the opposite side is innocent?
Not knowing the correct translation of the word shouldn't keep a believer from understanding what it means from the other detailed passages about the penalties for breaking that Law, none of which penalize a soldier. In fact, several soldiers were men of God called to be soldiers. In some cases, God commanded those godly men to take the life of every man, woman, and child - and animals - in cities.
It also helps a lot to learn from believers who have been disciples of Christ for many years who can answer questions that may take years to learn.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 4:12:25 PM
|
|
|
Eutychus
Posts: 6377
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
... However to teach personal convictions as being sins is false...
The Bible teaches otherwise. If you perceive something to be wrong and do it, then God with hold you guilty of sin because you THINK you are sinning, even if every believer alive has freedom to do what you think is wrong. It is about your heart, how you perceive an action, not just specific sins.
Adultery is always a sin, as is stealing. But, for example, going to a baseball game can be a sin for someone that used to wager heavily on sports events with money that should have been used to provide for his family, while not being a sin to millions of others.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 4:16:56 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
The law was established to keep the children of God from sinning. Hmm, that's not what Paul says in Romans 3:20 - "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."
quote:
If you perceive something to be wrong and do it, then God with hold you guilty of sin because you THINK you are sinning, even if every believer alive has freedom to do what you think is wrong. It is about your heart, how you perceive an action, not just specific sins. Amen, Euty, well stated!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 4:18:37 PM
|
|
|
cposey
Posts: 314
Joined: 8/20/2009
Status: offline
|
As far as i see, a personal conviction is a wise or unwise thing for you personally. Just like you stated with your example about baseball game. But to take the position of teaching it as His truth for all others is false teaching.
What scripture specifically are you using to say that if we believe we are sinning than we are actually sinning?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 4:20:04 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
Romans 14:23 - "But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin."
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 4:21:07 PM
|
|
|
Eutychus
Posts: 6377
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
As far as i see, a personal conviction is a wise or unwise thing for you personally. Just like you stated with your example about baseball game. But to take the position of teaching it as His truth for all others is false teaching.
What scripture specifically are you using to say that if we believe we are sinning than we are actually sinning?
One specific verse:
Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.
-James 4:17
Another:
But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.
-Romans 14:23
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 4:25:34 PM
|
|
|
cposey
Posts: 314
Joined: 8/20/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
Hmm, that's not what Paul says in Romans 3:20 - "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."
That would be Paul's teaching for an example of how we cannot earn our salvation.
As far as the intention of the law read galatins 3:23-25.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 4:26:23 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.
-James 4:17 A good verse, but more specifically defining the sin of ommission, not the sin of personal conviction. I think Romans 14:23 is the classic and maybe a passage in 2 Corinthians that I can look up later if you wish, cposey.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 4:29:15 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2930
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Romans 14:23 - "But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin."
Good verse. Unfortunately, many believe the converse to be true based on this passage. That is, if one has no doubts then it is not sin. Basic logic tells us this is not the case. It is not only those who forbid certain practices who's consciences can be seared as with a hot iron, but we can become calloused to unacceptable behavior also.
I am not saying you make this mistake, but it has been proposed.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 4:29:40 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
That would be Paul's teaching for an example of how we cannot earn our salvation.
As far as the intention of the law read galatins 3:23-25. No, I think Gal 3:24 says pretty much the same thing. The Law shows us we are sinners in need of a Savior, not to keep us from sinning!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 4:29:40 PM
|
|
|
cposey
Posts: 314
Joined: 8/20/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
As far as i see, a personal conviction is a wise or unwise thing for you personally. Just like you stated with your example about baseball game. But to take the position of teaching it as His truth for all others is false teaching.
What scripture specifically are you using to say that if we believe we are sinning than we are actually sinning?
One specific verse:
Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.
-James 4:17
Another:
But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.
-Romans 14:23
in Romans doesn't the verse before it say that you should keep it to yourself. why then teach it is wrong for someone else. It is a personal conviction is it not.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 4:34:11 PM
|
|
|
cposey
Posts: 314
Joined: 8/20/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
That would be Paul's teaching for an example of how we cannot earn our salvation.
As far as the intention of the law read galatins 3:23-25. No, I think Gal 3:24 says pretty much the same thing. The Law shows us we are sinners in need of a Savior, not to keep us from sinning!
I am not disputing our view now as Christians, since Christ died, I am saying the intention of the law when it was first written. And by obeying the law it did just a Paul said, protecting and guiding the Israelites until their Savior arrived.
So why do we want to take portions of that same law adn say do this adn don't do this. Let God teach each of us individually what is wrong and right. While some understandings are deeper, we have got to allow others to grow in Christ and not smother them with the condemnation adn shame and guilt pointed out to us by the law.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 4:42:16 PM
|
|
|
cposey
Posts: 314
Joined: 8/20/2009
Status: offline
|
drmark i would gladly like to hear any insight on the matter. 2 Corinthians reference would be great. I 'll have ot get back at ya in the morning though, gotta a date with my wife. Have a blessed evening.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/19/2009 4:43:17 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
I am not disputing our view now as Christians, since Christ died, I am saying the intention of the law when it was first written. Well, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one, cposey. While the Law may have "protected and guided the Israelites", they surely abused the Law by turning it into a man-made game of self-righteous showmanship instead of admitting their inability to obey God's commands without His grace and power. That is what I believe the Law was primarily for then and now.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/20/2009 6:05:39 AM
|
|
|
cposey
Posts: 314
Joined: 8/20/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
I am not disputing our view now as Christians, since Christ died, I am saying the intention of the law when it was first written. Well, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one, cposey. While the Law may have "protected and guided the Israelites", they surely abused the Law by turning it into a man-made game of self-righteous showmanship instead of admitting their inability to obey God's commands without His grace and power. That is what I believe the Law was primarily for then and now.
I guess maybe what i am trying to say is we should look at the law not as humans, who are falliable, but try and see it through God's eyes. Why would He have set up the law?
I think this brings up an interesting question though. Jesus came to fulfill the law and not abolish it. How did HE fulfill it?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/20/2009 8:58:37 AM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
I think this brings up an interesting question though. Jesus came to fulfill the law and not abolish it. How did HE fulfill it? An excellent topic for a new thread! You have my blessing to start one, cposey.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/20/2009 6:31:00 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2930
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
I am not disputing our view now as Christians, since Christ died, I am saying the intention of the law when it was first written. Well, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one, cposey. While the Law may have "protected and guided the Israelites", they surely abused the Law by turning it into a man-made game of self-righteous showmanship instead of admitting their inability to obey God's commands without His grace and power. That is what I believe the Law was primarily for then and now.
This is where the first person plural becomes a valuable tool in understanding the Tanach(OT). If we replace "they" and "them" with "we" and "us" it becomes apparent that not much has changed in how man has related to Adonai. What one then must ask is, if we continue to do many of the same things, why would we not need similar direction?
Also, the question regard what it means that Yeshua fullfilled the Scriptures would be a good thread. There is much misunderstanding regarding the use of the word "fulfill" in the Scriptures.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/20/2009 6:40:11 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/21/2009 6:50:15 AM
|
|
|
cposey
Posts: 314
Joined: 8/20/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
This is where the first person plural becomes a valuable tool in understanding the Tanach(OT). If we replace "they" and "them" with "we" and "us" it becomes apparent that not much has changed in how man has related to Adonai. What one then must ask is, if we continue to do many of the same things, why would we not need similar direction?
Are you kidding me, not that much has changed? Maybe Jesus Christ?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/21/2009 4:25:40 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2930
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
quote:
This is where the first person plural becomes a valuable tool in understanding the Tanach(OT). If we replace "they" and "them" with "we" and "us" it becomes apparent that not much has changed in how man has related to Adonai. What one then must ask is, if we continue to do many of the same things, why would we not need similar direction?
Are you kidding me, not that much has changed? Maybe Jesus Christ?
Nope, Yeshua is the same yesterday, today and forever. The Sacrifice and ressurrection took place to secure The Promise, but people are still doing the same dumb things they did then. On the flip side some still do some of the smart things they did back then also.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/21/2009 4:41:24 PM
|
|
|
McFatty
Posts: 879
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
I am not disputing our view now as Christians, since Christ died, I am saying the intention of the law when it was first written. Well, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one, cposey. While the Law may have "protected and guided the Israelites", they surely abused the Law by turning it into a man-made game of self-righteous showmanship instead of admitting their inability to obey God's commands without His grace and power. That is what I believe the Law was primarily for then and now.
This is where the first person plural becomes a valuable tool in understanding the Tanach(OT). If we replace "they" and "them" with "we" and "us" it becomes apparent that not much has changed in how man has related to Adonai. What one then must ask is, if we continue to do many of the same things, why would we not need similar direction?
Also, the question regard what it means that Yeshua fullfilled the Scriptures would be a good thread. There is much misunderstanding regarding the use of the word "fulfill" in the Scriptures.
The Bible says that if we're guided by the Spirit, we don't need the Law as a tutor.
_____________________________
"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/21/2009 4:51:12 PM
|
|
|
raysnchrist
Posts: 12
Joined: 10/21/2009
Status: offline
|
This question has to do with the conscience. God has placed the conscience within the believer in order to convict.
Cigarettes, alcohol, tatoos are not in and of themselves sinful. It is what is in the heart that defiles the man.
Drinking that causes anyone to stumble is a sin.
Your body is not your own. You have been bought with a price.
Your body is the temple of the living God.
Therefore, glorify God in your mortal bodies.
You have no rights to do what you please with something that is God's through creation, belongs to God by possession and will eventually go back to God by resurrection.
Your body does not even belong to you in the first place. You must learn to surrender your will to His. Then you will learn what is the mind of Christ.
< Message edited by raysnchrist -- 10/22/2009 11:22:05 AM >
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
