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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/21/2009 4:54:19 PM
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drmark
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quote:
The Bible says that if we're guided by the Spirit, we don't need the Law as a tutor. Only Christians are "guided by the Spirit". The issue here is the purpose of the Law for unbelievers. And that is to convict them of their sin.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/21/2009 5:15:43 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
The Bible says that if we're guided by the Spirit, we don't need the Law as a tutor.
I think we need to look at the passage. I could take a guess at which one you are refering to, but it would be best if you told me so we can avoid playing 20 questions. That said it is not appropriate to discuss whether or not one is to live a Torah observant life on this thread, There is another thread for that. So, if you are rejecting my views on marking oneself because it is not mentioned in the Apistolic Writings, we will have to discuss that there.
We can discuss the consistancy of the "it's not in the new testiment" view if you like. We can also discuss the concept of whether one needs to have a standard to refer to, if one is guided by Adonai's Spirit, though this is also being discussed on the "Is there such a thing as Christian ethics, standards, or principles?" thread.
I am not trying to be elusive here, I just do not want to get involved in a discussion that is going to get interupted by a TOS violation.
So, suffice it to say, if you believe the only verse in the Scriptures regarding marking oneself is irrelevant, then there is nothing more here to discuss, unless you intend on using references from HaTorah to justify any other point you wish to make in these forums. That would not be consistant with what appears to be your use of the phrase, "we don't need the Law as a tutor." in your last post.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/21/2009 6:10:52 PM
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McFatty
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
The Bible says that if we're guided by the Spirit, we don't need the Law as a tutor.
I think we need to look at the passage. I could take a guess at which one you are refering to, but it would be best if you told me so we can avoid playing 20 questions. That said it is not appropriate to discuss whether or not one is to live a Torah observant life on this thread, There is another thread for that. So, if you are rejecting my views on marking oneself because it is not mentioned in the Apistolic Writings, we will have to discuss that there.
We can discuss the consistancy of the "it's not in the new testiment" view if you like. We can also discuss the concept of whether one needs to have a standard to refer to, if one is guided by Adonai's Spirit, though this is also being discussed on the "Is there such a thing as Christian ethics, standards, or principles?" thread.
I am not trying to be elusive here, I just do not want to get involved in a discussion that is going to get interupted by a TOS violation.
So, suffice it to say, if you believe the only verse in the Scriptures regarding marking oneself is irrelevant, then there is nothing more here to discuss, unless you intend on using references from HaTorah to justify any other point you wish to make in these forums. That would not be consistant with what appears to be your use of the phrase, "we don't need the Law as a tutor." in your last post.
Realizing that there are many passages in the first five books of the Bible which aren't "Don't do x or y will happen," I have no problem citing those books in posts. Your one Levitical verse should be taken in context... perhaps thinking of the reason this might have been a good idea for the Jews of that time not to do. If you frown upon a Christian getting a tattoo citing Leviticus 19:28 as your reason, you must equally frown upon any Christian who cuts his hair in violation of 19:27, correct? Further, to hold to these laws so literally means you must be willing to put to death any man who violates the sexual laws illustrated in chapter 20. Do you equally frown upon those who round off their sideburns or trim the corners of their beards? Are you willing to kill people who commit sexual immoralities?
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"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/21/2009 7:24:51 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
The Bible says that if we're guided by the Spirit, we don't need the Law as a tutor.
I think we need to look at the passage. I could take a guess at which one you are refering to, but it would be best if you told me so we can avoid playing 20 questions. That said it is not appropriate to discuss whether or not one is to live a Torah observant life on this thread, There is another thread for that. So, if you are rejecting my views on marking oneself because it is not mentioned in the Apistolic Writings, we will have to discuss that there.
We can discuss the consistancy of the "it's not in the new testiment" view if you like. We can also discuss the concept of whether one needs to have a standard to refer to, if one is guided by Adonai's Spirit, though this is also being discussed on the "Is there such a thing as Christian ethics, standards, or principles?" thread.
I am not trying to be elusive here, I just do not want to get involved in a discussion that is going to get interupted by a TOS violation.
So, suffice it to say, if you believe the only verse in the Scriptures regarding marking oneself is irrelevant, then there is nothing more here to discuss, unless you intend on using references from HaTorah to justify any other point you wish to make in these forums. That would not be consistant with what appears to be your use of the phrase, "we don't need the Law as a tutor." in your last post.
Realizing that there are many passages in the first five books of the Bible which aren't "Don't do x or y will happen," I have no problem citing those books in posts. Your one Levitical verse should be taken in context... perhaps thinking of the reason this might have been a good idea for the Jews of that time not to do. If you frown upon a Christian getting a tattoo citing Leviticus 19:28 as your reason, you must equally frown upon any Christian who cuts his hair in violation of 19:27, correct? Further, to hold to these laws so literally means you must be willing to put to death any man who violates the sexual laws illustrated in chapter 20. Do you equally frown upon those who round off their sideburns or trim the corners of their beards? Are you willing to kill people who commit sexual immoralities?
As I stated, I would be happy to discuss the various commandments you present in the proper thread. I was merely pointing out that "we don't need the Law as a tutor." is a rather sweeping declaration if you are using it to reject a particular commandment. If you wish to discuss how one is to interpret various commandmments, is that not admitting that HaTorah is indeed a tutor? If you are using this phrase to mean something different when applied to the verse regarding marking oneself than you do to the following verse about pimping out one's daughter, I would be interested in hearing that clarification.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/21/2009 8:05:47 PM
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McFatty
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The Spirit may guide me in directions that coincide with some of the old Law. I'm pretty sure if I prayed about pimping out my daughter, the Holy Spirit would convict me not to do that. Jesus taught enough about loving one's family (not to mention neighbors) that I wouldn't be considering that anyway.
Just because something is in the Mosaic Law doesn't mean that my doing that thing means I found it there. I know many atheists who abstain from sex with animals. Does that mean they're doing their best to follow that part of the Law? Of course not. They just don't think that's a good idea. So just because I believe it's wrong to pimp out one's daughter doesn't mean I have to think it is wrong to get a tattoo.
Leviticus 19, from verse 26 on, warns against activities almost exclusively linked to certain pagan cultures of the time. Taken as a whole, one can see that it's warning the Jews of the time to avoid these activities so that they avoid falling out of the activities that make them Jews.
Of course I admit that the Law is the tutor. The Bible says it is.
_____________________________
"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/22/2009 12:25:23 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
The Spirit may guide me in directions that coincide with some of the old Law. I'm pretty sure if I prayed about pimping out my daughter, the Holy Spirit would convict me not to do that. Jesus taught enough about loving one's family (not to mention neighbors) that I wouldn't be considering that anyway.
Just because something is in the Mosaic Law doesn't mean that my doing that thing means I found it there. I know many atheists who abstain from sex with animals. Does that mean they're doing their best to follow that part of the Law? Of course not. They just don't think that's a good idea. So just because I believe it's wrong to pimp out one's daughter doesn't mean I have to think it is wrong to get a tattoo.
Leviticus 19, from verse 26 on, warns against activities almost exclusively linked to certain pagan cultures of the time. Taken as a whole, one can see that it's warning the Jews of the time to avoid these activities so that they avoid falling out of the activities that make them Jews.
Of course I admit that the Law is the tutor. The Bible says it is.
It is true that there are athiests who do some good things without refering to the Scriptures. However, they generally do not quote the Scriptures in defense of their behaviors or in an attempt to convince others to do what they do. That would not be consistant with their views.
So, if these are directions on how to avoid being mistaken for one who worships another god, does it not make sense that these things not be used in an attempt to attract attention, express one's individuality or be recognized as one of Adonai's people? These are the reasons that have been given for for marking oneself. Since Adonai has given us alternatives for the above mentioned purposes, should we not use those alternatives?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/22/2009 12:31:57 PM >
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/22/2009 3:09:22 PM
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McFatty
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It's refreshing talking with you, Bluethread, because I've had to look up a few Hebrew words to follow your conversation! 
The Bible does say that all things can be used for the glory of God. So if I were to get a tattoo of a distinctly Christian symbol, I think that would qualify. The Bible shows many examples of people being identifiable as individuals, so I'm not sure how individuality is inherently wrong. If something attracts attention and allows for me to be a witness to people I would otherwise not have had the chance to, I see no bad in that either.
Instead of trying to find as many things as possible to tell people not to do, why not try to use all our resources for the glory of God?
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"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/22/2009 3:26:08 PM
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drmark
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quote:
The Bible does say that all things can be used for the glory of God. Chapter and verse, please. Sin can NEVER be used for God's glory!
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/22/2009 3:29:49 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
The Bible does say that all things can be used for the glory of God. Chapter and verse, please. Sin can NEVER be used for God's glory!
Many cases come to mind, but two should suffice: Joseph sold into slavery. Jesus arrested, tried, convicted, executed falsely.
God is never at the mercy of Satan. He ALWAYS get glory, even from those who try to thwart Him.
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/22/2009 3:37:59 PM
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drmark
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As I suspected, someone did not read the statement accurately. God can and often does use the consequences of sin to bring glory to Himself, but never is sin itself glorifying God.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/22/2009 3:40:42 PM
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Eutychus
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Genesis 50:20
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/22/2009 3:50:51 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 879
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
The Bible does say that all things can be used for the glory of God. Chapter and verse, please. Sin can NEVER be used for God's glory!
I'll look it up after work tonight. That doesn't change the illustration I presented earlier as part of that discussion.
_____________________________
"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/22/2009 4:02:14 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Genesis 50:20 I heard you the first time, Euty. Apparently you're not hearing me...
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/22/2009 4:52:37 PM
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cposey
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Well if God can use the results or consequences of sin for HIS glory, than does the sin itself really matter that much. Hasn't he forgiven us all our sins throught the power of the cross and resurrection?
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/22/2009 5:11:54 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Hasn't he forgiven us all our sins throught the power of the cross and resurrection? So just sin away and let God be glorified? I'm pretty sure Paul addressed this heresy in Romans chapter 6... 
Are you seeing where this doctrinal misunderstanding logically goes, Eutychus?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/22/2009 11:01:25 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
It's refreshing talking with you, Bluethread, because I've had to look up a few Hebrew words to follow your conversation!
The Bible does say that all things can be used for the glory of God. So if I were to get a tattoo of a distinctly Christian symbol, I think that would qualify. The Bible shows many examples of people being identifiable as individuals, so I'm not sure how individuality is inherently wrong. If something attracts attention and allows for me to be a witness to people I would otherwise not have had the chance to, I see no bad in that either.
Instead of trying to find as many things as possible to tell people not to do, why not try to use all our resources for the glory of God?
I am glad I have caused you to look at things more closely. Hopefully, you will also be encouraged to look at the cultural contexts also. I also find your clear and straight forward manner quite refreshing.
Let me remind you of one of the points I have made. There is nothing inherently wrong with individuality or attracting attention. However, we need not take on the practices of the nations to be individuals or attract attention. Adfonai gives us several thing sthat we can do and avoid doing to identify ourselves as Adonai's people. Many of them are listed in Lev. 19. There are only two physical marks that are seen in a positive light, one is circumcision and the other is peircing one's ear as a sign of lifetime servitude. The first is a thread unto itself, because it is so full of connotation and historical significance. The latter has been used by some as a sign of lifetime servitude to Yeshua. I find this application of the latter a bit out of context, but not worth arguing about. Suffice it to say there are plenty of things mentioned in the Scriptures that one can do for the purposes mentioned above and many of them leave a lot of room for individuality.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/22/2009 11:11:09 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/23/2009 7:14:08 AM
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cposey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Hasn't he forgiven us all our sins throught the power of the cross and resurrection? So just sin away and let God be glorified? I'm pretty sure Paul addressed this heresy in Romans chapter 6...
Are you seeing where this doctrinal misunderstanding logically goes, Eutychus?
I think you might be misunderstanding what i was trying to say. How could i believe that as a believer in Christ that sin doesn't matter. The point i was trying to make is that because all of our sins are forgiven through the cross and resurrection, when at times we stumble and sin, God can still use it to glorify HIMSELF. Why should we heap condemnation upon ourself if at times we sin, when God doesn't. There is no condemnation in Christ. That is not a license to sin, but rather a freedom from being bound to the statutes of the law.
And i will have to be really honest with you. I became really angry with you when you hinted that i am a heretic. i am the same as you, a child of God. I would hope that in reading my posts, while they might differ from time to time, you would be able to see that my heart is after Jesus adn Jesus alone. Please don't make such judgements or feel like you can say whatever you want about another person. I have never in any of my posts said that it is ok to sin as much as you want. I was asking a question and not stating the truth which i have learned. So if you could please answer the question.
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/23/2009 12:24:02 PM
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drmark
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quote:
So if you could please answer the question. Sure. The short answer is that the power of the cross and the resurrection sets in place the conditions for God to forgive. Confession and repentance are still required for sin to be forgiven or else everybody is forgiven unconditionally since Christ died for all.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/23/2009 4:01:42 PM
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cposey
Posts: 314
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
So if you could please answer the question. Sure. The short answer is that the power of the cross and the resurrection sets in place the conditions for God to forgive. Confession and repentance are still required for sin to be forgiven or else everybody is forgiven unconditionally since Christ died for all.
Under the new covenant the Jesus set up what scripture reference is there that say confession and repentance are required to forgive sin. Speaking from the stand point of those who choose to believe in Christ.
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/23/2009 5:24:03 PM
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drmark
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Would you like to start a new thread? I'm not sure this is really on topic for this one.
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/27/2009 6:45:23 AM
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cposey
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Ok well i guess we will try to get back to the op.
What are personal convictions?
Can we teach personal convictions as the Truth for all?
Are drinking, smoking, tattos, etc. sins or convictions?
I don't know if we really delved into these questions.
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/27/2009 6:07:40 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1770
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
Ok well i guess we will try to get back to the op.
What are personal convictions?
Can we teach personal convictions as the Truth for all?
Are drinking, smoking, tattos, etc. sins or convictions?
I don't know if we really delved into these questions.
I've drank once--I was 5 and I thought the can was a Coke can. I don't think I swallowed any beer because I threw up. I will never touch alcohol again if I can help it because my uncle (at the time a state trooper, a husband, and a father of two young girls ages 8 and 12) was killed by a man with good intentions to just enjoy the buzz but not get drunk. I think Billy Graham was spot on. Alcohol has killed more people than it's saved (it's saves not a single person).
Smoking is no different. It's disgusting, worldly, and physically destructive. It does no one any good. Unless one desires to die from slow asphyxiation as a result of emphysema like a trustee in my church, put away the worthless nicotine and give the money you save to the poor and the extra lifespan you save to your family and the service of God.
And as a missionary I could not marry a women who continues to mark her body. Even the world looks at a minster or minister's wife who lives like this with a raised brow. Therefore, tattoos will never mark this body because I am "set apart". The world needs to know, without ever having to second guess, that I'm undeniably and completely Christ's.
In Christ,
ZG
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/27/2009 6:52:20 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 879
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
Ok well i guess we will try to get back to the op.
What are personal convictions?
Can we teach personal convictions as the Truth for all?
Are drinking, smoking, tattos, etc. sins or convictions?
I don't know if we really delved into these questions.
I've drank once--I was 5 and I thought the can was a Coke can. I don't think I swallowed any beer because I threw up. I will never touch alcohol again if I can help it because my uncle (at the time a state trooper, a husband, and a father of two young girls ages 8 and 12) was killed by a man with good intentions to just enjoy the buzz but not get drunk. I think Billy Graham was spot on. Alcohol has killed more people than it's saved (it's saves not a single person).
Smoking is no different. It's disgusting, worldly, and physically destructive. It does no one any good. Unless one desires to die from slow asphyxiation as a result of emphysema like a trustee in my church, put away the worthless nicotine and give the money you save to the poor and the extra lifespan you save to your family and the service of God.
And as a missionary I could not marry a women who continues to mark her body. Even the world looks at a minster or minister's wife who lives like this with a raised brow. Therefore, tattoos will never mark this body because I am "set apart". The world needs to know, without ever having to second guess, that I'm undeniably and completely Christ's.
In Christ,
ZG
Do you look down on Christian people who take part in these three things, though their personal convictions may be different than yours?
_____________________________
"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: A sin to drink, smoke, have a tatto, etc...? - 10/27/2009 7:41:27 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1770
Joined: 2/4/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
Ok well i guess we will try to get back to the op.
What are personal convictions?
Can we teach personal convictions as the Truth for all?
Are drinking, smoking, tattos, etc. sins or convictions?
I don't know if we really delved into these questions.
I've drank once--I was 5 and I thought the can was a Coke can. I don't think I swallowed any beer because I threw up. I will never touch alcohol again if I can help it because my uncle (at the time a state trooper, a husband, and a father of two young girls ages 8 and 12) was killed by a man with good intentions to just enjoy the buzz but not get drunk. I think Billy Graham was spot on. Alcohol has killed more people than it's saved (it's saves not a single person).
Smoking is no different. It's disgusting, worldly, and physically destructive. It does no one any good. Unless one desires to die from slow asphyxiation as a result of emphysema like a trustee in my church, put away the worthless nicotine and give the money you save to the poor and the extra lifespan you save to your family and the service of God.
And as a missionary I could not marry a women who continues to mark her body. Even the world looks at a minster or minister's wife who lives like this with a raised brow. Therefore, tattoos will never mark this body because I am "set apart". The world needs to know, without ever having to second guess, that I'm undeniably and completely Christ's.
In Christ,
ZG
Do you look down on Christian people who take part in these three things, though their personal convictions may be different than yours?
Absolutely not.
And wouldn't you know it, I'm not even a legalist! No joke, seriously!
Christians need to know the principles and the guidelines. That's where it all begins.
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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