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RE: tall, smooth skinned people???? Gods in Heaven?? - 9/23/2009 9:31:11 PM
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neetchym
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So I have had one question answered, but I am still wondering what "Gods" the Lord is punishing... I saw that benelchi posted some various translation and the NLT also says "God's." I'm just curious because the Lord says not to worship any other God as a commandment and I have always known or thought I knew that there is only one God. Is he speaking of the false gods that people worship? And why place them in heaven? Still a bit confused.
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RE: tall, smooth skinned people???? Gods in Heaven?? - 9/24/2009 12:17:38 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
BTW, nobody has answered what Genesis 35:11 means.
I'm not really sure what you're looking for, but it seems pretty straight forward to me. This is a double-layered promise. On the one hand, it is a promise we see fulfilled in national Israel up until (arguably) the violent schism following King Solomon, after which Israel as a regional power ceased to exist. On the other hand, it is a reference to the coming of Christ and the spread of God's saving message to all people's in all nations. The greatest King will come from Jacob/Israel's body, and in so doing a multitude of nations will come, spiritually, from him. It's very much similar to my favorite snippet of Scripture, Genesis 12:1-3.
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RE: tall, smooth skinned people???? Gods in Heaven?? - 9/24/2009 6:23:38 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
Why? Because the British do not have the DNA of the Jews? It has to do with genealogy. OY!!!
If the Brits had the geneology, the DNA would show it. Since it does not....
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RE: tall, smooth skinned people???? Gods in Heaven?? - 9/24/2009 11:14:31 AM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: justpassinby
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
This is critical to prophecy, and Christianity stands or falls by that answer. Oh good heavens, now I remember why I swore off the Prophecy and End Times thread! Sorry, jpb, but my Christianity stands on the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit, not some ridiculous interpretation of eschatology!
Do you know why it stands or falls? I sense you do not. Let me explain it to you. The Abrahamic promises included amongst other things many descendants, many nations, a great nation, powerful people, kings, a specific land and lands for them, blessings to all nations by these people, and of course the "child of promise" which ultimately included the promise of Christ. The seed of Abraham were to be as the sands of the seashore and stars of heaven, i.e. physical and spiritual as well. These promises are all grouped together. So, we can't throw one out the window or they all go by default. Since Christ is included, that includes him going out the window as well. So, where are the nations? If the Jews only are God's people (by physical birth in Abraham) then He failed miserably. I'm dead serious.
Both Paul and Peter (of the New Testament) provided a much better answer to that question when they quoted what God had already said in the OT.
"Yet the number of the sons of Israel Will be like the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered; And it will come about that, in the place Where it is said to them, "You are not My people," It will be said to them, "You are the sons of the living God." And the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel will be gathered together, And they will appoint for themselves one leader, And they will go up from the land, For great will be the day of Jezreel. Say to your brothers, "Ammi," and to your sisters, "Ruhamah."" (Hos 1:10-1 NAS)
"And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. As He says also in Hosea, "I will call those who were not My people, 'My people,' And her who was not beloved, 'beloved.'" "And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, 'you are not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God." (Rom 9:23-26 NAS)
"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy." (1Pe 2:9-10 NAS)
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RE: tall, smooth skinned people???? Gods in Heaven?? - 9/24/2009 11:25:05 AM
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drmark
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benelchi, would you comment on Isaiah 24:21, which has been tossed aside in all this end times pontificating? Here is my question from post #7:
quote:
Regarding Isaiah 24, is that referring to the celestial bodies or demons of the dark world or both? Surely God has no punishment in store for His loyal angels!
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RE: tall, smooth skinned people???? Gods in Heaven?? - 9/24/2009 11:37:48 AM
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Eutychus
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From the Jamieson, Fausset, Brown commentary on Isaiah 24:21:
21. host of . . . high ones--the heavenly host, that is, either the visible host of heaven (the present economy of nature, affected by the sun, moon, and stars, the objects of idolatry, being abolished, Isaiah 65:17, 60:19, simultaneously with the corrupt polity of men); or rather, "the invisible rulers of the darkness of this world," as the antithesis to "kings of the earth" shows. Angels, moreover, preside, as it were, over kingdoms of the world (Daniel 10:13,20,21).
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RE: tall, smooth skinned people???? Gods in Heaven?? - 9/25/2009 6:12:10 AM
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justpassinby
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quote:
I'm not really sure what you're looking for, but it seems pretty straight forward to me. [regarding Genesis 35:11] This is a double-layered promise. On the one hand, it is a promise we see fulfilled in national Israel up until (arguably) the violent schism following King Solomon, after which Israel as a regional power ceased to exist.
OK. The promise said nations. Later on in Genesis 48:19 of Ephraim and Manasseh, the nations is in the plural again. Not one nation. So, other nations, genealogically related to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob must also be able to claim "we have Abraham as father".
quote:
OY!!!
If the Brits had the geneology, the DNA would show it. Since it does not....
DNA is a complex subject matter, and did you know that most of the Ashkenazi Jews do not have that either, according to the actual researchers (I can get their names later)? not the critics of their work. That represents something like 90% of all Judaisim as much in doubt as say, a Celtic person.
Besides, that was my earlier point. The Jews are not in the same pedigree as the Israelites. However, they share the same common ancestor. So, just as in a mere 10 generations after Noah until Abraham the DNA can diverge into at least 3 separate "races" in his 3 sons, likewise in about 130 generations I'm sure the Israelites and Jews can diverge the same way Noah's son's diverged. Whether we are talking about father Jacob or Noah, it's the same concept.
quote:
Both Paul and Peter (of the New Testament) provided a much better answer to that question when they quoted what God had already said in the OT.
Hosea chapter one is talking to the house of Israel. No serious theologian denies that. Now, Paul expanded the meaning somewhat to include non-Israelite Gentiles, but that does not nullify the original meaning as one cannot take away the promises to the people of the race of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and apply them solely to non-Israelite Gentiles as there were no original promises to them. However, Israel became as Gentiles so that the rest of the Gentiles were included as Paul taught about the addendum of the Gentiles.
As for Peter, he was to the circumcision (and by extension to the house of Israel) and the rest of the apostles sought out both Jews and those lost of the house of Israel and applied this scripture to something (or framework) that they'd understand. A non-Israelite Gentile could not relate to Hosea chapter one considering it was not their scriptures. He is speaking to Israelites.
It was Paul who brought the radical concept to the table that the Gentiles, or nations not of the both houses of Israel, were included in the plan of salvation, and it was him who carried on this work.
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RE: tall, smooth skinned people???? Gods in Heaven?? - 9/25/2009 9:42:21 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
OK. The promise said nations. Later on in Genesis 48:19 of Ephraim and Manasseh, the nations is in the plural again. Not one nation. So, other nations, genealogically related to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob must also be able to claim "we have Abraham as father".
Did you happen to read the rest of my post? I felt I made it pretty clear what the nations refers to - Gentile nations, brought into the promise of God through the work of Christ. Gentile nations like Britain.
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RE: tall, smooth skinned people???? Gods in Heaven?? - 9/25/2009 10:39:29 AM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: justpassinby
quote:
Both Paul and Peter (of the New Testament) provided a much better answer to that question when they quoted what God had already said in the OT.
Hosea chapter one is talking to the house of Israel. No serious theologian denies that.
And which Theologian can you cite that denies that Hosea 1:10 was prophetically referring to the Gentile nations that were part of the Abrahamic promise?
quote:
Now, Paul expanded the meaning somewhat to include non-Israelite Gentiles, but that does not nullify the original meaning as one cannot take away the promises to the people of the race of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and apply them solely to non-Israelite Gentiles as there were no original promises to them. However, Israel became as Gentiles so that the rest of the Gentiles were included as Paul taught about the addendum of the Gentiles.
He didn't nullify the promise, he just clarified it. God's promise to Abraham was to those who were "sons" in a spiritual sense; this included those in Israel who put their faith in God.
"For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise." (Gal 3:26-29 NAS)
quote:
As for Peter, he was to the circumcision (and by extension to the house of Israel) and the rest of the apostles sought out both Jews and those lost of the house of Israel and applied this scripture to something (or framework) that they'd understand. A non-Israelite Gentile could not relate to Hosea chapter one considering it was not their scriptures. He is speaking to Israelites.
The idea that 1 Peter is only addressed to Jews is simply ludicrous. Peter, like Paul, recognized God's plans for the Gentiles and the Jews; remember the vision, given by God, to Peter in Acts 10, where God made it clear to Peter that Salvation was given to the Gentiles? If you had just read the few verses that came directly in front of the verse from 1 Peter that I had quoted you would not have made this mistake.
"Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, " and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for. But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light." (1Pe 2:7-9 NIV)
quote:
It was Paul who brought the radical concept to the table that the Gentiles, or nations not of the both houses of Israel, were included in the plan of salvation, and it was him who carried on this work.
No, this was NOT only Paul, and Paul was one of the inspired writers of Scripture so there is no legitimate reason to dismiss this teaching.
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RE: tall, smooth skinned people???? Gods in Heaven?? - 9/25/2009 8:24:56 PM
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justpassinby
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quote:
Did you happen to read the rest of my post? I felt I made it pretty clear what the nations refers to - Gentile nations, brought into the promise of God through the work of Christ. Gentile nations like Britain.
But the promise also says these nations have to be genealogically related (signified as the dust or sands of the seashore) Spiritual seed are compared to the stars.
quote:
And which Theologian can you cite that denies that Hosea 1:10 was prophetically referring to the Gentile nations that were part of the Abrahamic promise?
I never said such a thing. I said that Hosea is referencing the house of Israel, but Paul by extension included non-Israelite Gentiles. In addition, if we read Hosea carefully, this is one of several passages that states the Israelites themselves will actually become Gentiles, so the term Gentiles can refer to the lost house of Israel (which is why I throw around the term "non-Israelite Gentiles" to distinguish the two). Only the Jews of the southern Kingdom retained their identity as prophesied.
quote:
The idea that 1 Peter is only addressed to Jews is simply ludicrous.
I did not say that, either. I said the lost house of Israel. The Jews are only one of the nations of God.
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RE: tall, smooth skinned people???? Gods in Heaven?? - 9/26/2009 6:12:42 AM
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justpassinby
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To get back to the subject of Isaiah 18 part of this thread, it is interesting to note that the link I gave a few posts back apparently do not support the BI position, but still link that prophecy with America regardless. In other words, one does not have to adopt "lost tribes" teaching to still believe that, although I think the site does a fine job of presenting their view.
The reason I say this is because they admit that the prophecy was to 4 nations, but culminates in the United States. The first one being to Israel, but they stop short of actually linking the two together apparently (unless I missed something somewhere).
Linking all the descriptions together, he finds that only America fits the prophecy.
Now to take a brief side road here, this is what is done when taking all the biblical descriptions relating to the lost house of Israel's migrations, the direction they are described as going to or coming from, and their characteristics we find only certain nations fit (and archeological evidence also supports the migrations). For example, if the bible speaks of them as a large population in the isles in the Northwest, it does not make sense to look for lost tribes in a small community in the Himalayas, although that's exactly what some so-called scholars will do and wonder why they are not found. And to add one last thought, the subject is more than just the idea that the people of Israel separated from the Jews. Most people miss the point why God did that to begin with, as each house (i.e. the house of Israel and the house of Judah) had separate destinies to fulfill, so that changes much of the perceived theology and basic understanding of the bible 180º from what is presented today.
Back in my evangelical days as a kid, I wondered why other religions were "wrong" and we we lucky enough to have it "right". Well, I found out that I and the rest of us did not have it completely right, and had to be brave enough to search out the matter.
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RE: tall, smooth skinned people???? Gods in Heaven?? - 9/26/2009 9:51:15 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
But the promise also says these nations have to be genealogically related (signified as the dust or sands of the seashore) Spiritual seed are compared to the stars.
That's a bit of a reach, friend. The text suggests no such thing. Would you care to defend your claim further?
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RE: tall, smooth skinned people???? Gods in Heaven?? - 9/26/2009 10:43:24 PM
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justpassinby
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quote:
That's a bit of a reach, friend. The text suggests no such thing. Would you care to defend your claim further?
What defense have you that it is not genealogical? If nations from Abraham were not as such, then they would not be his nations now, would they? My interpretation is more straightforward without the song and dancing. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob understood that this was to be physical descendants. In addition, I just stated earlier, they were to have seed as the "sands of the seashore". This is prophesied in Hosea chapter one regarding the lost house of Israel as well. Sand (or dust) does not represent spiritual seed of faith only.
In addition, your exegesis is wrong if you claim the promises can apply to one nation (such as the Jews) but not many nations. If one nation is physical, then the rest are as well from the seed of Abraham. Besides, it says from his loins which are physical offspring. nations means nations. Let's not be cultish and reinterpret that to mean "spiritual children from many nations". You can't apply physical to one nation, an then spiritual to many nations. There is no justification to do that.
It takes imaginative reinterpretation to apply this to anyone else.
The bible is a book about races, and specifically, the people of Israel.
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RE: tall, smooth skinned people???? Gods in Heaven?? - 9/26/2009 11:34:43 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: justpassinby
quote:
That's a bit of a reach, friend. The text suggests no such thing. Would you care to defend your claim further?
What defense have you that it is not genealogical? If nations from Abraham were not as such, then they would not be his nations now, would they? My interpretation is more straightforward without the song and dancing. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob understood that this was to be physical descendants. In addition, I just stated earlier, they were to have seed as the "sands of the seashore". This is prophesied in Hosea chapter one regarding the lost house of Israel as well. Sand (or dust) does not represent spiritual seed of faith only.
According to Peter and Paul it did.
quote:
In addition, your exegesis is wrong if you claim the promises can apply to one nation (such as the Jews) but not many nations. If one nation is physical, then the rest are as well from the seed of Abraham. Besides, it says from his loins which are physical offspring. nations means nations. Let's not be cultish and reinterpret that to mean "spiritual children from many nations". You can't apply physical to one nation, an then spiritual to many nations. There is no justification to do that.
Do you realize that the Hebrew word for nations is the same Hebrew word for gentiles?
quote:
It takes imaginative reinterpretation to apply this to anyone else.
The bible is a book about races, and specifically, the people of Israel.
Like Rahab and Ruth who are both in the geneology of Christ?
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RE: tall, smooth skinned people???? Gods in Heaven?? - 9/26/2009 11:39:00 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
What defense have you that it is not genealogical?
The fact that nowhere else in Scripture are separate nations called children of Abraham, apart from a spiritual sense.
quote:
If nations from Abraham were not as such, then they would not be his nations now, would they?
Paul certainly thought so. Consider Galatians 3:6-9. Who are Abraham's descendants? Those who have faith in Christ.
quote:
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob understood that this was to be physical descendants. In addition, I just stated earlier, they were to have seed as the "sands of the seashore". This is prophesied in Hosea chapter one regarding the lost house of Israel as well. Sand (or dust) does not represent spiritual seed of faith only.
You claim that the patriarchs understood this passage to only speak of physical descendants, but you also seem to believe that they knew that "stars in the sky" was spiritual descendants. How do you justify this?
quote:
In addition, your exegesis is wrong if you claim the promises can apply to one nation (such as the Jews) but not many nations. If one nation is physical, then the rest are as well from the seed of Abraham.
You seem to not grasp that Jesus changed everything. Jesus Himself called physical descendants of Abraham false children. You can't pick one or two verses out of the Old Testament and divorce them from the whole message of Scripture.
quote:
Let's not be cultish and reinterpret that to mean "spiritual children from many nations". You can't apply physical to one nation, an then spiritual to many nations. There is no justification to do that.
So was Paul wrong when he called me a child of Abraham, despite my physical Gentile heritage?
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RE: tall, smooth skinned people???? Gods in Heaven?? - 9/27/2009 12:15:50 AM
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justpassinby
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OK, then explain this (to put it more clearly). Why does the promises of one nation become fulfilled in (so-called Jews) but the promise of many nations not? And for those who accused me of saying that this does not apply spiritually as well, I said no such thing and never stated it (I hope the bible is not interpreted the same way). I said that it also applied to physical people AND spiritual as well. BOTH were promised.
The bible is replete with geneologies and there must be a reason.
The fact is that the Israelites were later Gentiles and as such this is why the "nations" in the Hebrew was the same as Gentile nations. In other words, the promise was to be fulfilled through God's people Israel, but they in turn became Gentiles to include the rest of the Gentiles.
These nations therefore have every right to the land of Israel in the end times as the Jew.
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RE: tall, smooth skinned people???? Gods in Heaven?? - 9/27/2009 7:46:09 AM
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drmark
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quote:
I fear that we are heading away from the point of the opening post. Is anyone willing to address the OP and help those of us who care not one twit for zeke's wild theories to understand the meaning of "God's punishment on the host of the exalted ones" in Isaiah 24:21? I would really like to unsubscribe from this mess once I see a reasonable answer to the second part of the OP!
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RE: tall, smooth skinned people???? Gods in Heaven?? - 9/29/2009 10:16:49 AM
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justpassinby
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quote:
Also in Isaiah 24:21 "In that day the Lord will punish the gods in heaven..." Isn't their only one God in heaven!? What gods will he punish?
These are Lucifer and his angels. Satan is the god of this world presently as the two Kingdoms (God and Lucifer) have been battling it out since the beginning of time. But Satan's end is coming. the chapter as a whole deals with end times and some of the passages are stated in the NT almost verbatim.
These demonic forces also influence worldly governments and possess leaders. (e.g. Daniel 10:13,20) which is why there's always an earthly element to it. The bible is dualistic---- there's a physical and then there's a (parallel) spiritual. The physical mirrors what happens in the spiritual. In the OT, Paul called the feasts (actual events) on this Earth "shadows of things to come" which was spiritually in Christ. One cannot apply interpretations to one or the other only as a coin has two sides.
In today's jargon, these entities may manifest as various paranormal manifestations such as aliens, shadow people, poltergeists, and so forth. But whatever one wants to describe these "god's in heaven" as your translation says, they are extremely powerful and severe entities to deal with, and without Christ in one's life, one hasn't a "ghost"  of a chance. In the bible one angel killed 185,000 Assyrians, which demonstrates their power.
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RE: tall, smooth skinned people???? Gods in Heaven?? - 9/29/2009 10:25:22 AM
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drmark
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Well, I've read that commentary but I still don't like it because there are no demons in heaven. Any other thoughts out there on Isaiah 24:21?
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RE: tall, smooth skinned people???? Gods in Heaven?? - 9/29/2009 4:09:13 PM
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justpassinby
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Well, I've read that commentary but I still don't like it because there are no demons in heaven. Any other thoughts out there on Isaiah 24:21?
Why can't demons be out there in space? And Lucifer certainly has access to the heavenlies (Job 1:6). When people describe aliens, even they come from the skies (i.e. elevated places).
Consider Ephesians 6:12 when Paul also speaks of these entities in high places.
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RE: tall, smooth skinned people???? Gods in Heaven?? - 9/29/2009 5:10:07 PM
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WilliamtheConqueror
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quote:
ORIGINAL: neetchym
In Isaiah 18:7 "...from this tall, smooth skinned people, who are feared far and wide for their conquest and destruction..." who is he referring too? Who are these people?
Also in Isaiah 24:21 "In that day the Lord will punish the gods in heaven..." Isn't their only one God in heaven!? What gods will he punish?
Thanks a bunch!
Well if I was a TBM, I would say that there are other gods in the heavens and Psalms 82 plus John 10 proclaim such. Also doesn't the BoM talk about tall, smooth skinned people who are feared? However I am NOT a TBM. Are you Neetchym?
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RE: tall, smooth skinned people???? Gods in Heaven?? - 9/29/2009 10:29:34 PM
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ta_mosquito
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What is a TBM?
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RE: tall, smooth skinned people???? Gods in Heaven?? - 9/30/2009 5:33:26 PM
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WilliamtheConqueror
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
What is a TBM?
TBM = TRUE BLUE MORMON
BoM = BOOK OF MORMON
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