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RE: tall, smooth skinned people???? Gods in Heaven?? - 10/2/2009 1:02:41 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: justpassinby
But the promise also says these nations have to be genealogically related (signified as the dust or sands of the seashore) Spiritual seed are compared to the stars. I would agree that this is an extreme stretch, and that the text does not distinguish between sand and stars, 2 different ways of saying the same thing. God is repeating Himself, which has a specific meaning in Semitic languages - strong emphasis. If it is tripled (holy holy holy) it means infinite emphasis. Even Jesus used the doubled texts: "Truly Truly I say....."
You are making a distinction that cannot be supported in scripture. Just the fact that you cannot find a verse that specifically denys it does not make it so.
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Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
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RE: tall, smooth skinned people???? Gods in Heaven?? - 10/4/2009 10:50:28 PM
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justpassinby
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: justpassinby
But the promise also says these nations have to be genealogically related (signified as the dust or sands of the seashore) Spiritual seed are compared to the stars. I would agree that this is an extreme stretch, and that the text does not distinguish between sand and stars, 2 different ways of saying the same thing. God is repeating Himself, which has a specific meaning in Semitic languages - strong emphasis. If it is tripled (holy holy holy) it means infinite emphasis. Even Jesus used the doubled texts: "Truly Truly I say....."
You are making a distinction that cannot be supported in scripture. Just the fact that you cannot find a verse that specifically denys it does not make it so.
OK, let's get off the topic of dust, sand and stars for a moment and tell me why a "father of many nations" does not mean (genealogical) nations when 1) that's how they understood it 2) that's what it meant for others such as Ishmael?
I don't know why anyone has to wrest scripture into saying that "nations" does not mean literal nations, but rather "people from many nations becoming one in Christ" or some other extrapolating "spiritual" ideas. Sorry. Nations means nations. Simple as that. No re-interpretive song and dancing is required. Now, these nations were to come from one of Jacobs sons, then in Genesis 49:19 the promise goes specifically to the sons of Joseph. If there is only spiritual significance to "nations", then the bible is being superfluous mentioning genealogies like that since the bible is replete with genealogies and certain family lines have a very real role to play both in the past and yet in the future.
What about Christ? the promised Messiah was required to have a specific genealogy. So, if the sons of Joseph were promised something by genealogy, why would that go to "Gentile believers" instead of inheriting the promises in the same manner Judah inherited Messiah?
The misunderstanding of these genealogical concepts came about due to the "Gentililization" of the Scriptures by folks who do not see the ethnocentric point in the promises and the purpose of God and want to spread promises around like a free-for-all for everybody to claim. Reminds me of a battle over inheritance of one's will by relatives. Won't hold up in court.
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Link to Genealogy of Christ
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RE: tall, smooth skinned people???? Gods in Heaven?? - 10/6/2009 11:51:40 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3812
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
OK, let's get off the topic of dust, sand and stars for a moment and tell me why a "father of many nations" does not mean (genealogical) nations when 1) that's how they understood it 2) that's what it meant for others such as Ishmael?
Of course it means literal political nations. But that word ALSO means ethnicities.
Ishmael became the father of all the Arabic countries. Many nations indeed. Esau became the father of a couple of nations. Abraham's other children (born after Sarah died) may have also become nations. We are not given those histories. Abraham's decendants certainly literally fulfilled that promise of many nations.
But remember only ONE of those nations was God's chosen - Israel. Only one nation recieved the Sinai covenant.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: tall, smooth skinned people???? Gods in Heaven?? - 10/6/2009 1:17:52 PM
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justpassinby
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Many nations is not fulfilled in the Arabic nations, although that is an extra side benefit God gave to Abraham.
Paul stated:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
So, the promises went to Isaac.
quote:
DaveW:
But remember only ONE of those nations was God's chosen
Now let's continue tracing genealogies and see what scripture teaches:
Genesis 35:11: And God said unto him [Jacob], I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
So, at least one of the 12 sons, or tribes, of Jacob (or maybe all of them) had to fulfill that.
Let's continue reading:
Genesis 48:17-19: And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
So, this "Jewish tribe" of Ephraim, as many people sloppily apply the name, must also become many nations.
_____________________________
Link to Genealogy of Christ
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