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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 9/24/2009 8:39:56 PM
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DeliveredDarling
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quote:
I'm not sure -- have you read my posts in this thread?
I see the passage you quoted as Jesus' invitation into the Kingdom. His kingdom, of course.
An invitation into the Kingdom can take place anytime and anywhere.... including a church building, in a church service... but it is not merely, only, or primarily there. And that invitation should be extended to any and all, for God loves us all.
I think you and I both agree that Christians still have much growing in Christlikeness to do... much growing in extending of grace.... whether we are inside or outside the church building walls. Yes?
Thanks for reading and trying to "hear" me!
Yes, it's an invitation to the kingdom. That invitation can be anywhere, however because the op was directly addressing the lost in church, I was applying it to that.
I just fail to see a real reason why having poured through scripture, seeing any justification for not having the lost in church with us.
it truly saddens me that we have become so exclusionary. It's not Christ like at all-as i used scripture to support.
Please don't feel like I am attacking anyone, because I'm truly not, only pointing out with scripture where I think people have erred in their thinking or maybe they were taught that...I don't know.
But I do knowing a Jesus that supports that kind of thinking, is not the same Jesus I love and serve. I showed you my Jesus. 
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 9/24/2009 8:53:51 PM
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zoebob
Posts: 7961
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From: land of limbo
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quote:
I just fail to see a real reason why having poured through scripture, seeing any justification for not having the lost in church with us.
Again, I don't think anyone has said they can't be there...just that during church they are not the primary focus. They are not who the service is intended for.
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 9/24/2009 9:41:07 PM
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Elena1030
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
so maybe I'm just confused as to what people are trying to say. 
I think that's what happened.
We've not been saying that church services or church buildings or gatherings at church are exclusionary. Or that they should be.
We've been saying that the church (ekklesia in the Greek) IS the believers.
The OP was talking about our methodology... the order of our process. Here's the OP ... edited for clarity, and I've added a bit to try to help communicate what I understood the OP to mean:
I know that most people would that say inviting lost people to a church [service or gathering] is so that they can hear the gospel.
Okay, they come, and they hear. But then they leave the same as they came. Week after week, month after month, year after year. They come on Sunday a.m. -- that's it.
And then Christians in the church wonder why these people do not attend Sunday School or get involved in the ministry [of the church].
Then if they [the unsaved] do get involved in the ministry, you have lost people supposed to be teaching lost people about Jesus :(
Please explain why we are inviting the lost in to the church [services before they really have a reason to care about being there]?
Jesus said to go out into the world and make disciples.
Then they become a part of the body of Christ, and then they have a desire for Sunday School and ministry.
Please, please explain why this continues to go on?
deliverdarling, I think you and the OP are saying similar things... from different angles. ---> it's still about being the hands and feet of Jesus and taking the Word of Life to people -- as we live our lives (aka "As you are going" - from the Great Commission, Matthew 28:16-20)... and not keeping the gospel-sharing to only when we are inside solid walls of our church buildings.
It's far more important that we BE the church and SHOW people Jesus... than it is to invite them into the building. That doesn't mean we stop inviting them into the building. It's kinda like inviting them into our big ol' family home! Certainly we keep it open.
It just means we get our foci straight. And we love Jesus more... and our buildings and programs and structures far less than we've been doing.
Make sense?
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 9/24/2009 10:41:09 PM
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bolt.
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"The Church" -- a supernatural body, a group of those who have by faith accepted the sacrifice and Lordship of Jesus
"A Church" -- a physical building or location built (or arranged-for) by members of "The Church" (see above) to make fellowship, teaching, inter-ministry, corporate worship, and ministry or evangelism projects easier for members of "The Church" to accomplish on a regular basis in a predictable place.
"Going to Church" -- being aware of any kind of planned gathering at "A Church" (see above) and being motivated to make one's self a part of it.
"Being allowed in Church" -- not being turned away, harassed or made to feel unwelcome when one happens to be motivated to "Go to Church" (see above).
"Being part of A Church" -- being recognizable, socially connected, and valued by a group of (apparent) believers who "Go to Church" at a predictable time an place.
"Being part of THE Church" -- contingent on the salvation and lordship events described in line 1, not on the visible characteristics described as "Being part of A Church" (above).
The question at hand is simply whether or not it is appropriate for people to "be part of A Church" (socially and relationally) without "being part of THE Church" (in the soul) -- And how one would know if that is the case, and whether action should be taken -- And if so, what to do, and how long to wait before you do it.
My answer is that someone who either openly expressed non-conviction, but is interested, or has another motive for coming -- I would say that they are more than welcome to "come to Church" if they are so-motivated, and even to "be a part of A Church" on an ongoing social level, where they would experience love and truth and hopefully come 'round.
But someone who is in disenable sin without qualm, or is bearing clear fruit of an unclean heart (again, without appearing to repent of it, stand against it, or flee from it, or seek help or prayer etc.) -- that person would need to receive the ministry of a tactful loving person that could make a strong attempt (or two or three) to get them to turn fully to the face of grace and leave their filthiness at the foot of the cross... then ongoing discipleship could also be provided.
If that plan is rejected by the person in sin... depending on factors like the severity of it, the openness of it, their attitude towards it, the level of influence of the person, then there might come a time where they might be asked to refrain from coming to Church or being a part of a Church (socially, relationally). There might also be a time where (for the good of the many) the pulpit needs to say (with forewarning to the person in question) that thus-and-such is a sin, unacceptable to God, and it is not a part of a life lived in holiness and dedication... but our doors are open to the living-lost, and that openness should not be construed as approval.
That's my take on it... Summary statement: "The Church" by definition contains no lost people. "A Church" may be more or less open to having the lost at gatherings, some of which are more intimately spiritual than others. Having a long-term lost one coming to Church regularly is awkward -- but it's better dealt with than ignored, and under some circumstances it may need to be halted.
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 9/24/2009 11:47:09 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
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Deliveredarling,
The Church for all intents and purposes is the body of Christ. Unbelievers are not a part of that body. They are not suppose to be there. But if they "happen" to be there as Paul so astutely pointed out, the gift of "tongues" would be a "sign" for them for belief. The gift of tongues is a sign for unbelievers principally because YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND IT. Whereas in that same passage paul speaks of exhortation or teaching being much greater for THE BELIEVER because HE CAN UNDERSTAND IT. The word of God is foolishness to those who are perishing. So indepth teachings and studies are principally useless for the unbeliever.
The unbeliever needs the unadulterated GOSPEL of salvation and repentance. They can go no further until they have accepted the first rite.
If you read the Bible, specifically the NT, you will see God has set out an order in spreading the Kingdom of Heaven. Remember, our job as believers is to spread the Kingdom.
The system clearly outlined in the Bible is as follows:
Pastor/Teachers/Other believers-->Teach/exhort/warn-->Believers--< learn/study--> preach/tell/teach the Gospel--> unbelievers-->convert/reject-->Holy Spirit convicts = New believer OR Rejected
This is the way it works. God has specific reasons for setting it up this way. SOME unbelievers do not intend to recieve Christ and are there as wolves in sheep (seeker) clothing eating up the new baby christians and leading astray those who have not yet grown in the Lord/causing others to fall.
For everyone who has been HURT in church this should make REAL SENSE. If we were policing ourselves and saying, "So, buddy, how long have you been here? And your still seeking?"
There are people who come into church and cause MUCH harm. Often, I've seen WHOLE churches turn from teaching/and exhorting the brotheren into Gospel 101 EVERY DAY. WHAT? And in CHURCH? This is why many of us do not know how to spead the gospel or are not strong enough to really start living this Christian life.
The Holy Spirit convicts. They don't need and should not be in church. Not forbidden, but church should be a place that they "happen" upon. Not go to stay without any committement.
I think of an unbeliever going day after day to church a someone who's heart gets hardened and a symbol of the man who was thrown out of the wedding banquet because he was not properly dressed. They are not properly dressed--they have no righteousness imputed from Christ.
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Church should be a place for believers as the church is "ecclesia" or called out ones. There is NO reason why an un-called out one should attend church day after day.
If Christ is knocking on the door of a person's heart and we stop allowing the sinners in--we have just become the millstone He warned us not to be.
If the church isn't for sinners-then we don't belong there either.
Jesus was clear in the scripture I used in post 4.
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 9/25/2009 6:00:19 AM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1781
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quote:
For everyone who has been HURT in church this should make REAL SENSE. If we were policing ourselves and saying, "So, buddy, how long have you been here? And your still seeking?"
There are people who come into church and cause MUCH harm. Often, I've seen WHOLE churches turn from teaching/and exhorting the brotheren into Gospel 101 EVERY DAY. WHAT? And in CHURCH? This is why many of us do not know how to spead the gospel or are not strong enough to really start living this Christian life.
The Holy Spirit convicts. They don't need and should not be in church. Not forbidden, but church should be a place that they "happen" upon. Not go to stay without any committement.
I think of an unbeliever going day after day to church a someone who's heart gets hardened and a symbol of the man who was thrown out of the wedding banquet because he was not properly dressed. They are not properly dressed--they have no righteousness imputed from Christ.
These are precisely who I am saying the church is full of.
Luk 8:11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
Luk 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Luk 8:13 "Those on the rocky {soil are} those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no {firm} root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luk 8:14 "The {seed} which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of {this} life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
Luk 8:15 "But the {seed} in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.
This would them mean that our churches are just as much of a ministry opportunity as pursuing the "lost". Our churches SHOULD NOT stop preaching the Gospel both inside and outside. We don't depend upon our churches or SS to attract the lost-it's the Holy Spirit that draws.
Too many now days, want to go to church, for it to be about them, to serve them, to entertain them, and are NOT concerned for the soul sitting next to them, not are they concerned about their own soul.
Elena, I now understand what you are saying-thank you for taking the time to explain it.
quote:
But if they "happen" to be there as Paul so astutely pointed out, the gift of "tongues" would be a "sign" for them for belief. The gift of tongues is a sign for unbelievers principally because YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND IT.
Maybe that is the way it is in your church, however, my church doesn't speak in tongues. My preacher only speaks English. 
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 9/25/2009 7:14:10 AM
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DeliveredDarling
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Luk 14:21 "And the slave came {back} and reported this to his master. Then the head of the household became angry and said to his slave, 'Go out at once into the streets and lanes of the city and bring in here the poor and crippled and blind and lame.'
Luk 14:22 "And the slave said, 'Master, what you commanded has been done, and still there is room.'
Luk 14:23 "And the master said to the slave, 'Go out into the highways and along the hedges, and compel {them} to come in, so that my house may be filled.
Luk 14:24 'For I tell you, none of those men who were invited shall taste of my dinner.' "
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 9/26/2009 9:51:58 PM
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BoldforChrist
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Okay, some understood exactly what I was saying. And I am talking also about no fear of the Lord in our Church's. Where the lost come in and use a Holy place, for it is the place we as believers gather together to worship the Lord, and the lost use it as a social club. In Isaiah chapter 1 the Lord himself said he was sick of it. Oh they were going through all the motions, even to raising their hands during worship. But, their hearts were far from him. Then he talks about repentance, getting their hearts right. Ezekiel 9 talks about the Lord cleaning out his house because of the unbelievers that were there pretending to be his, but were not. The Lord has said, judgement begins at the house of God.
Okay, this being said, we know those of us who have read how to evangelize. We know the Lord said to go OUT into the world. So why are we being disobedient to the Lord's word and trying to do it our way instead? Now I know perfectly well that when the Lord is drawing someone to himself, it will be him sending them to Church to get their hearts right and repent. It happened to me, I repented first then went to Church. I had no desire before that to be somewhere I didn't belong. A woman recently at our Church came because of the Lord sending her there. She had been backslidden and the Lord was drawing her back. So my question again is this, Why are Christians filling the pews with lost people who have no desire for Christ and they use our Church where we are to worship the Lord as a social club. When will the body of Christ be obedient to his words. Go out preach the gospel, they repent and then they are added to the body of Christ.
My daughter said, because the Christians haven't understood it yet. Their desire is that these people would hear, believe and get saved. But, that is not happening. It didn't even happen when Jesus spoke the gospel, some came others didn't. Do we think we can speak it preach it better than Jesus.
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 9/27/2009 6:24:01 AM
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DeliveredDarling
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uote]So my question again is this, Why are Christians filling the pews with lost people who have no desire for Christ and they use our Church where we are to worship the Lord as a social club. [/quote]
Do you not realize that many that are filling your pews are lost, going through the motions and allowing it to be more of a social club than a House of God?
I stressed that in earlier posts. Are unbeliever's supposed to look a certain way so we can identify them more easily? How do identify those that are lost within your own body?
You can't judge their salvation based on church attendance-many have grown up in church and think they are saved because of it. Many think they are saved because they are "good" people. The preaching and teaching that occurs in some churches has truly lead "the little children" astray.
[quote]Their desire is that these people would hear, believe and get saved. But, that is not happening. It didn't even happen when Jesus spoke the gospel, some came others didn't. Do we think we can speak it preach it better than Jesus. [/quote]
That desire is because it is Christ's desire-there is nothing to not understand about that.
You are correct in saying that not al came to Him, is anyone here suggesting they can preach better than Jesus? Or has it been established that All are important to Him for salvation, not who we decide is worthy to attend our churches?
I don't believe what your speaking is representative of Jesus. I gave scriptural reference to base my premise on.
Again, what about the "unbeliever's "already in your church that can play act the part so well, yet have no relationship with Him? Or are they just behaving correctly, so they should be allowed?
< Message edited by deliveredarling -- 9/27/2009 6:38:54 AM >
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 9/27/2009 7:54:32 AM
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bolt.
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quote:
So my question again is this, Why are Christians filling the pews with lost people who have no desire for Christ and they use our Church where we are to worship the Lord as a social club.
The answer to your question is that the Christians are poorly discipled and timid. They choose not to evangelize, but they want to do something. Therefore, thoughtfully and with a good heart, they decide that it's more likely that a person will come to Christ if they are coming to a Church than if they are not coming. (Which is true, actually -- as far as it goes.) So they feel up to that task of encouraging people to come to Church at least. So they do. Their hearts are good, but they have learned passivity.
The fault lays with the Church leaders that lack the skill (or the guts) to be challenging the people under their responsibility -- reminding them that the Lordship of Christ means that they have turned over their lives to His purposes. They fail to teach the discipines that cultivate and active relationship with Christ, which would involve sharing His value and zeal for the lost and hearing His calling to each (at least generally -- for evangelism or discipleship).
They also fail to teach the skills of evangelism, based on insights of others regarding the responsiveness of our current milieu of people in culture. (In the same way as they fail to teach the skills of other ministries.)
Doing this would also add an element of 'expectation' to the fellowship elements of Church life, which would make it more likely that fence sitters would get in or quit wasting their time.
quote:
When will the body of Christ be obedient to his words. Go out preach the gospel, they repent and then they are added to the body of Christ.
We will when leaders take up the tasks of teaching and drawing people to a true deep life of dedicated faith, in the truth of their spirit, in communion with His Spirit and His Body -- through personal discipline and surrender. Then they will eagerly seek out and lap up skill-related teaching.
I expect there would be an element of the enemy opposing this with his forces, if it looks to be happening anywhere, so assertive prayer about unseen forces is probably critical too.
_____________________________
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 9/27/2009 8:01:50 AM
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DeliveredDarling
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quote:
We will when leaders take up the tasks of teaching and drawing people to a true deep life of dedicated faith, in the truth of their spirit, in communion with His Spirit and His Body -- through personal discipline and surrender.
Is it really the leaders that teach this? Or does it really depend on the Christian to truly chase after the Lord with all their heart, their soul and their strength?
I know what you are saying about discipleship and I agree, it is severely lacking within the body. I just don't think the leadership is 100% at fault. We as Christians have a responsibility to seek the wisdom of God, because when the end comes, we won't be answering for our leaderships failure, but we will answer for our own.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 9/27/2009 9:27:22 AM
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bolt.
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That's true, that we have personal responsibility to seek God -- but when some people, who we are supposed to respect, create an environment where that seems unusual and unnecessary, it becomes way too easy to get off track so very early.
When converts were supposed to be 'infants' drinking pure spiritual milk, if somebody was there offering them water that did not nourish, so they grew up stunted knowing nothing different... it makes sense to lay some responsibility at the feet of the one to whom the 'infant' Christian had been entrusted. But the call would be continual, so the person themself is accountable for not diving deeper on their own as God drew them to Himself (even though that would be harder than it should have been).
There are books on personal discipline, relational spirituality, or ministry skills that someone could read, and there is trial and error guided by the Spirit -- but these are challenging roads for one to take when God has gifted and called someone to teach them, in community, as they should be.
Failing to be a self-starter and a chaser of God, when one is isolated and discouraged from doing so -- I consider that a small failing. Failing to care for and teach those to whom God has entrusted one as a teacher and leader... that I consider more significant (not many should aspire to be teachers, because...?).
_____________________________
Are you having trouble getting your daily dose of the life changing Word of God?
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>>audio link<<
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 9/27/2009 2:04:43 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1781
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
Failing to care for and teach those to whom God has entrusted one as a teacher and leader... that I consider more significant (not many should aspire to be teachers, because...?).
Can you teach someone who doesn't have the desire to learn? Are we supposed to hunt them down, chase them and make them learn?
It has to be a two way street-a desiring learner and a bible based teacher, teaching.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 9/27/2009 3:07:09 PM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
Can you teach someone who doesn't have the desire to learn? Are we supposed to hunt them down, chase them and make them learn?
Children have two things motivating them: their sin nature, and a desire for their father's approval. The one can overcome the other, when wisely combined with proper discipline.
We can start by disicpling our own kids. Then go on to take on the world. Or, like Billy Sunday, we can go after the world, end up with a million notches on our Bibles, and lose our children to the other team.
The ball is in our court. Disciple making starts at home.
_____________________________
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Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 9/28/2009 11:48:45 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 342
Joined: 6/2/2005
From: Midwest USA
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delivereddarling,
quote:
These are precisely who I am saying the church is full of.
LOL. This is precisely what the church should NOT be full of. It is because we've thrown the doors open wide and seen no reason to o make the church a place for THE Church; you get this quasi "religious" institution full of diluted messages and unique programming.
We should NOT be trying to evangelize people IN CHURCH. But people IN THE WORLD. The church is for believers. The church is for equipping SAINTS. Not evangelizing the LOST. It's kind of funny the way you put it, because it shows just how far away from God's model we have strayed. We have strayed so far, that you can say that the church is full of unbelievers (God forbid); and we need to evangelize them. Yikes! It's such an oxymoron. It's such a contradiction. It's such a non sequiter concept! I'm almost speechless!
quote:
Too many now days, want to go to church, for it to be about them, to serve them, to entertain them, and are NOT concerned for the soul sitting next to them, not are they concerned about their own soul. But, deliveredarling, church IS about the believer. It is composed of believers. It is the body of Christ. Here we are suppose to be equipped for ministry, strengthened, and refreshed. We've gotten it all VERY wrong. We've gotten it all wrong because, you and I can go to a service try to offer a gospel to the guy sitting on the pew next to us who is listening to the pastor talk about the gospel but with hard heart sits unmoved--yet every day we walk past people who have NEVER heard the gospel, been offered an opportunity to accept Christ, or ministered too in our big world, in our schools, places of work, clubs, neighborhoods, city halls and red light districts! Ackkk! How useless shall we become???
We're fumbling all over ourselves in backward confusion! Evangelizing in the church and walking past the lost in streets, cities, and business everyday! God help us all that we don't see the confusion in that!
Because Christians are NOT being equipped in church they have no personal power to go out into THE WORLD and preach the gospel. Are you timid? Afraid to speak to a co-worker, homeless guy, constituent, or city official about making Jesus Christ Lord of their life? Well, join the club of other Christians ill prepared to evangelize the world.
The church is for The Church of Jesus Christ. Not for evangelizing hard hearts that can sit under a pastor day after day and week after week. The Bible says visit a man with the Gospel and if he rejects you, shake the dust off of your feet. That means ONE invitation is actually enough. Whether he accepts or not is his own affair.
God help us to get back to REAL churches! Instead of warehouses packed with spectators who like the benefits package! 
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 9/29/2009 5:39:03 AM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1781
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quote:
LOL. This is precisely what the church should NOT be full of. It is because we've thrown the doors open wide and seen no reason to o make the church a place for THE Church; you get this quasi "religious" institution full of diluted messages and unique programming.
We should NOT be trying to evangelize people IN CHURCH. But people IN THE WORLD. The church is for believers. The church is for equipping SAINTS. Not evangelizing the LOST. It's kind of funny the way you put it, because it shows just how far away from God's model we have strayed. We have strayed so far, that you can say that the church is full of unbelievers (God forbid); and we need to evangelize them. Yikes! It's such an oxymoron. It's such a contradiction. It's such a non sequiter concept! I'm almost speechless!
You do understand that i am talking about the these?
Luk 8:11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
Luk 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Luk 8:13 "Those on the rocky {soil are} those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no {firm} root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luk 8:14 "The {seed} which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of {this} life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
This is the majority of the body today. They think they are believer's and they think they are Christians, yet they show no fruit. Now does that mean that we are not to reach them as much as reachinging out to the lost?
I think not. I think we will be held accountable. we have just as much responsibility to these as we do the lost. One group of people is no less deserving of hearing the gospel than the other. The bible says for us to be readu in season and out of season.
Saying one group only is allowed at church is us, defining who is worthy to hear and who is not.
The only true model for the Church is in Acts. The New Testament church. The other criteria you gave does not lay out the guidelines-it talks about the gifts He gives us to edify the body. He is always the head and we are the members that make up the body-for a reason.
It is not us that should be separating and dividing-He will separate the wheat from the chaff.
quote:
But, deliveredarling, church IS about the believer. It is composed of believers. It is the body of Christ. Here we are suppose to be equipped for ministry, strengthened, and refreshed. We've gotten it all VERY wrong. We've gotten it all wrong because, you and I can go to a service try to offer a gospel to the guy sitting on the pew next to us who is listening to the pastor talk about the gospel but with hard heart sits unmoved--yet every day we walk past people who have NEVER heard the gospel, been offered an opportunity to accept Christ, or ministered too in our big world, in our schools, places of work, clubs, neighborhoods, city halls and red light districts! Ackkk! How useless shall we become???
Friend, It's not about us. We are to be onbedient. God WILL do the moving! Why make this harder than it has to be? Rest in Him, be obedient and He will do the work in His time--not ours. This is part of our problem, being the "church", we think we have to do a lot of work and the work would be easier if we didn't have the unbelievers to deal with. If we could just sit in church and enjoy the great teaching and fellowship. Personally, i do that no matter who is sitting next to me. We have made church about us and for us. it is a selfish, self-centered model-following after the Pharisees, not God. He did not exclude those in His gatherings-EVER!
I have posted scripture after scripture SHOWING how Jesus did what He did. Why take my word for it-go read it for yourself and see what He reveals to you.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 9/29/2009 5:51:19 AM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1781
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
The church is for The Church of Jesus Christ. Not for evangelizing hard hearts that can sit under a pastor day after day and week after week. The Bible says visit a man with the Gospel and if he rejects you, shake the dust off of your feet. That means ONE invitation is actually enough. Whether he accepts or not is his own affair.
Yes, Jesus tells His disciples this. Use it in context. Jesus was telling them what to do to be wise during the times. Christians were being killed for following Jesus.
How many time throughout the NT do we see Jesus rejoicing over the one that was lost? We have the prodigal son, the lost sheep, Peter etc.
Let's actually take Peter as the model for the church. He doubted-many of us believer's doubt from time to time. He denied Jesus three times, how many times have us "believer's" denied Christ simply by keeping our mouths shut?
Peter sat on the fence for quite awhile. He knew the Word-we know the Word. His heart had not YET made the connection. How many in our churches are the same way?
I still say you have a mental picture of what a lost person is supposed to look like.
When Jesus tells us to shake the dust-we shake the dust. I have had it tell me to do this. He knows so much better than I do and rather than be responsible for not telling another when I was supposed to be persistent-I'll just trust Him to lead me and them. (whether it is in church or along the street).
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/1/2009 12:00:14 AM
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BoldforChrist
Posts: 44
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline
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Deliverdarling, you talked about the day of Pentecost, did you notice who were in the upper room? They were believers and followers of Jesus Christ! When the Holy Spirit came upon them, the believers, they then went out into the world and began to witness to the lost and then the lost got saved. Not all the people who heard that day received, but those that did were THEN added to the body of believers and were received into the fellowship.
Now adays, it is backwards. We stuff them into the Church and expect them to hear, receive and get saved. And then when they don't the Christians who brought them in get disappointed and then don't know what to do with them. They come and go and there is no repentance and no change of heart and then what do they do with them? Nothing, they become pew potatoes and add nothing to the body of believers, because they are not believers. Jesus, said to witness, baptise them and then they are added unto the body. The Lord said these would be in our Church's in the end times and they are. But, their hearts are hard, what do we do with them now?
I'm all for witnessing to the Lost and rejoicing over the sinner who gets saved. That is my prayer and my hearts desire that all people come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ and repent of their sins. But, the Lord's house is holy and it is for his people to come to him, in worship, prayer, repentance and learning so then they can GO OUT into the world to make more disciples.
Any-way, for all the ones who understood exactly what I was talking about, thank you! I was wondering if I was the only one who knew this and didn't understand why others, think it's okay to fill the Church, God's house with unbelievers and then don't know what to do with the hard hearted people. I have handed out tracts to people in Church's where I live. One Church I was able to tract the whole Church, it was a small congregation! People in the Church need to know that Jesus Christ does live and rules and reigns still in his house and in the earth!
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/1/2009 12:30:28 AM
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Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 342
Joined: 6/2/2005
From: Midwest USA
Status: offline
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Deliveredarling,
This collection of scripture is important to look at.
quote:
Luk 8:11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
Luk 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Luk 8:13 "Those on the rocky {soil are} those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no {firm} root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luk 8:14 "The {seed} which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of {this} life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
If you notice item in question here is not the seed; but the soil. If the seed fell on good soil it flourished, if it fell on bad ground it did not. This is not a case of seed stages or levels of growth. The success or failure of the seed to grow or not gro is entirely dependent on the SOIL. The soil as we learn in this parable is THE HEART.
Bringing unbelievers into the body of Christ is like bringing in all kinds of soil and dirt and dumping it into your thriving garden. If you know a little about gardening, you'll know that horticulturists are as manic about soil as they are about tending the plant itself. If you have good ground and you dump stones into it--guess what? You now have stoney ground. If you have good ground and you dump thorns into it--guess what? You now have thorny ground.
Our job is to GO OUT into the highways, toss the seed. When it falls on GOOD ground, we scoop of the seedling and bring it into the fellowship of believers (the garden). We don't bring in a wheel barrel of stoney dirt.
God's house is holy. His word is for EVERYONE. But not EVERYONE get's that same level of access that others do.--UNTIL they have recieved Christ. God IS exclusive. His Body is holy and it is HIS. He is JEALOUS for His people, His bride. He has SET US APART. That means we are EXCLUSIVE. It's not about being snooty its about maintaining purity. GOD'S purity. We are to be among them in the highways and byways to PREACH and TEACH, but the church is not the domain of just anybody.
Those verses are quite plain as to the kinds of HEARTS that are out there. Those are not different kinds of Christians that He is describing. People think they are believers because we allow them into the sanctuary day after day.
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/1/2009 7:49:08 AM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1781
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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1Cr 5:10 I {did} not at all {mean} with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
1Cr 5:11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
1Cr 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within {the church?}
1Cr 5:13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
We see in this passage that "so-called" brothers are mentioned. This tells me that churches during that time are the same as they are now. Problems they had then are the same. We also see hoe Paul instructs us to deal with such. Unbeliever's (professing but not showing evidence of salvation) were present-Paul tells us to remove such a one and not to associate with them. He also tells us not to judge those who are outside of the body. He DOESN"T tell us that they do not belong there!
The questions that are asked by the op are addressed in scripture-the answers are there! Search them! Search your own heart-ask Him to show you what He wants you to know!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/1/2009 10:46:18 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
Posts: 342
Joined: 6/2/2005
From: Midwest USA
Status: offline
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quote:
1Cr 5:10 I {did} not at all {mean} with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
1Cr 5:11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
1Cr 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within {the church?}
1Cr 5:13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
Deliveredarling,
Did you quote the above to support my position? The Bible clearly says remove the wicked man. If the guy sits in church day in and day out and hasn't made a committment, it looks we've made an even greater oversight here.
Thank you for pointing this out! Some will be called hardliners for doing this, but this is actually the Biblical prescription when a church has unbelievers lodged in its midst. Or believers who rebell against the gospel.
While I have advocated that unbelievers are not supposed to be ushered into church; you have pointed out a greater failing among us. Not only should they not be brought for hearing the gospel; they should be kicked out after a day or so without recieving Christ.
Certainly a tough stance, but you're right, it's totally biblical.
You've more than proved my point.
Thanks for the scripture!
God bless!
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