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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/2/2009 3:03:56 AM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
Now adays, it is backwards. We stuff them into the Church and expect them to hear, receive and get saved.
If we summon the church together just to ignore it, and address our message to those who are not of the church, then what is the purpose of church?
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/2/2009 6:16:20 AM
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DeliveredDarling
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quote:
Did you quote the above to support my position? The Bible clearly says remove the wicked man. If the guy sits in church day in and day out and hasn't made a committment, it looks we've made an even greater oversight here.
Thank you for pointing this out! Some will be called hardliners for doing this, but this is actually the Biblical prescription when a church has unbelievers lodged in its midst. Or believers who rebell against the gospel.
While I have advocated that unbelievers are not supposed to be ushered into church; you have pointed out a greater failing among us. Not only should they not be brought for hearing the gospel; they should be kicked out after a day or so without recieving Christ.
You miss the point. This passage is talking to believer's, not unbelievers and it does not support your point.
Paul is addressing the body of believers!
1Cr 5:10 I {did} not at all {mean} with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
What this all boils down to is a righteous attitude that doesn't belong in the church. It's one man determining who is allowed to come in and who isn't. The Word can be twisted and turned to make it sound however you want to support your pov, however as scripture has been clearly used and shown, the position held is inaccurate.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/5/2009 2:05:18 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6339
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
I could post the whole scripture but I will let you read it for yourself.
Luke 11:37-54
Luke 13:1-9
Ah, but this one I will post!
Luk 14:7 And He {began} speaking a parable to the invited guests when He noticed how they had been picking out the places of honor {at the table,} saying to them,
Luk 14:8 "When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, for someone more distinguished than you may have been invited by him,
Luk 14:9 and he who invited you both will come and say to you, 'Give {your} place to this man,' and then in disgrace you proceed to occupy the last place.
Luk 14:10 "But when you are invited, go and recline at the last place, so that when the one who has invited you comes, he may say to you, 'Friend, move up higher'; then you will have honor in the sight of all who are at the table with you.
Luk 14:11 "For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
Luk 14:12 And He also went on to say to the one who had invited Him, "When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, otherwise they may also invite you in return and {that} will be your repayment.
Luk 14:13 "But when you give a reception, invite {the} poor, {the} crippled, {the} lame, {the} blind,
Luk 14:14 and you will be blessed, since they do not have {the means} to repay you; for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."
Luk 14:15 When one of those who were reclining {at the table} with Him heard this, he said to Him, "Blessed is everyone who will eat bread in the kingdom of God!"
I simply fail to see this Jesus you know.
That last sentence was unnecessary.
In any case, that is a truly wonderful passage about sharing the Gospel with the lost, as each of us should. It isn't about inviting the lost to a gathering of the church, the saved.
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/5/2009 2:13:00 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6339
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Did you quote the above to support my position? The Bible clearly says remove the wicked man. If the guy sits in church day in and day out and hasn't made a committment, it looks we've made an even greater oversight here.
Thank you for pointing this out! Some will be called hardliners for doing this, but this is actually the Biblical prescription when a church has unbelievers lodged in its midst. Or believers who rebell against the gospel.
While I have advocated that unbelievers are not supposed to be ushered into church; you have pointed out a greater failing among us. Not only should they not be brought for hearing the gospel; they should be kicked out after a day or so without recieving Christ.
You miss the point. This passage is talking to believer's, not unbelievers and it does not support your point.
Paul is addressing the body of believers!
1Cr 5:10 I {did} not at all {mean} with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
What this all boils down to is a righteous attitude that doesn't belong in the church. It's one man determining who is allowed to come in and who isn't. The Word can be twisted and turned to make it sound however you want to support your pov, however as scripture has been clearly used and shown, the position held is inaccurate.
Again, you have posted an important passage that we should not hide from the immoral of this world in every day life. It doesn't have anything to do with the premise that we should pack the church with the lost.
Jesus and Paul both preached and talked to the lost in a public setting, but the primary purpose of the local church was a place to fellowship, worship, study, take Communion, and sing unto or Lord & Savior - none of which the lost can do.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/5/2009 5:37:01 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1781
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quote:
In any case, that is a truly wonderful passage about sharing the Gospel with the lost, as each of us should. It isn't about inviting the lost to a gathering of the church, the saved
Luk 14:7 And He {began} speaking a parable to the invited guests when He noticed how they had been picking out the places of honor {at the table,} saying to them,
Luk 14:8 "When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, for someone more distinguished than you may have been invited by him,
Luk 14:13 "But when you give a reception, invite {the} poor, {the} crippled, {the} lame, {the} blind,
Really, does anymore need to be said about this?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/5/2009 5:42:34 PM
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bolt.
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Not if there's no interest in anything beyond presumption masquerading as actual interpretation...
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/5/2009 6:05:26 PM
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DeliveredDarling
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quote:
Not if there's no interest in anything beyond presumption masquerading as actual interpretation...
What do you mean?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/5/2009 6:15:39 PM
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bolt.
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I mean that parables require thorough exegesis, with primary attention to literary devices, narrative setting, cultural context and theological background.
The ideas (1) that "the feast" represents a Church service (or anything like it) and/or (2) that the poor etc. represent unbelievers (or anything like them) are assumptions that seem unlikely to me... but I'm not really interested in doing defensible exegetical work for the sake of addressing a topic to which I think the Scripture quoted does not apply... just to demonstrate that it does not apply.
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/5/2009 6:51:32 PM
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DeliveredDarling
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quote:
The ideas (1) that "the feast" represents a Church service (or anything like it) and/or (2) that the poor etc. represent unbelievers (or anything like them) are assumptions that seem unlikely to me... but I'm not really interested in doing defensible exegetical work for the sake of addressing a topic to which I think the Scripture quoted does not apply... just to demonstrate that it does not apply
I seriously disagree with this! I think scripture is very clear! You just can't get any clearer than mark 2:17!
He just did not come for the righteous-He came for the sinner!
WHICH WE ALL ARE! He wishes that none would perish. Some of those within the church are just as hellbound as those that don't attend church. If we booted out every "sinner" in the church-none of us would be allowed in.
Do we seriously not have an understanding of what Grace is ans how it applies to us?
I'm thinking apparently not because we just can't seem to extend it to unbelievers. There is just no other word other than self righteous that fits this kind of thinking. To think that we, sinners saved by grace, are so much better than the unbelievers that they don't belong in a church is absolutely unfathomable to me.
Do you remember when you were an unbeliever attending church?
Do you think your children who don't fully believe but are regurgitating what they have been taught belong in church or is that different?
Come on ......
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/5/2009 9:50:26 PM
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bolt.
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I don't see how you can disagree with the statement that your implied assumptions about the feast and the guests seem unlikely to me. They do. They seem that way to me. It's a fact, not a point of discussion.
I don't think that the Luke 14 parable of the feast applies. That's all.
---
As for the rest of it, I'm not really interested in discussing the difference between sinners and saints when you seem to have your mind made up already. I don't bother teaching without an interested audience.
For the record:
Who is welcome at a Church service:
Believers: yes
Seekers: yes
Pre-faith children: yes
Fence sitters: maybe
People pleasers: maybe
Strugglers: maybe
Unrighteous lifestyles: maybe
Determined sinners: no
Determined sinners out to hurt people: no
I would consider a Church to be doing right-enough if they welcomed all the 'maybe' categories, although someone with an unrighteous lifestyle should not be welcomed years upon years without impact. Nor should anyone but the 'yes' categories be leading or serving in a way that would present them as an example.
I would consider another Church to be doing right-enough if they excluded all the 'maybe' categories, as long as they gave at least a short period to show a transition to seeker-hood. No Church should welcome the 'no' categories for any longer than it takes to discern that it is in fact the case.
That's my opinion. There is no Scripture that directly and specifically supports it. And I'm OK with that.
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/6/2009 5:27:38 AM
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DeliveredDarling
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quote:
Nor should anyone but the 'yes' categories be leading or serving in a way that would present them as an example.
Why would an unbeliever be teaching in a church? What is it that they believe that they feel is lesson worthy?
That doesn't even make sense.
The wedding feast is an invitation for all to come and partake of the love of Christ. No exegesis needed-it is plain as day.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/6/2009 6:12:13 AM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1781
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quote:
I mean that parables require thorough exegesis, with primary attention to literary devices, narrative setting, cultural context and theological background.
The ideas (1) that "the feast" represents a Church service (or anything like it) and/or (2) that the poor etc. represent unbelievers (or anything like them) are assumptions that seem unlikely to me... but I'm not really interested in doing defensible exegetical work for the sake of addressing a topic to which I think the Scripture quoted does not apply... just to demonstrate that it does not apply.
First of all, I didn't say it refers to a church-I referred to it as an invitation.
Second, the righteous were the first invited and declined to come in the passage. The invitation was then opened up to ALL-seems pretty clear here the distinction between the righteous and the sinners. Like the distinction between the Jews and the Gentiles. It's also clear that Christ said He shows no partiality....So why should we?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/6/2009 11:40:07 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6339
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Really, does anymore need to be said about this?
Except that it, like previous scripture offerings, isn't about church.
Church isn't a place, it is the body of Christ and refers to the gathering of the body of Christ. The lost are NOT part of the body of Christ and, as such, cannot contribute to the ministry within the body.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/6/2009 12:06:03 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6339
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From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
You might want to re check that definition in Greek and Hebrew......
Let me put it this way:
Church isn't a place, it is the body of Christ and refers to the gathering of the body of Christ. The lost are NOT part of the body of Christ and, as such, cannot contribute to the ministry within the body.
quote:
Do you really want to be held accountable for telling them no, they don't belong?
They aren't the church.
What we should be concerned about is NOT sharing the Gospel with them and living Christ before them every day. That is our part of the Great Commission - not cramming the church with even more hypocrites than the failed system of making the church meeting the place where the "professional" Christians preach at them.
YOU and I are called to share the Gospel as we go through life. The assembling together is for the ministering to and by the saints to one another. Communion, Baptism, fellowship, worship, and Bible study are for, by, and of Christians, the lost can only be hypocritical. Do you want to increase the number of hypocrites by packing them into church?
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/6/2009 12:17:28 PM
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bolt.
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Since I consider it discourteous to ignore direct questions, I will answer the following:
quote:
Why would an unbeliever be teaching in a church? What is it that they believe that they feel is lesson worthy?
That doesn't even make sense.
The categories of 'maybe' who might be interested in teaching would be long-term attenders, such as 'people-pleasers' (the ones who come because it would break their mom's heart if they stopped) and 'fence-sitters' (who aren't sure what they believe, but are attracted and comforted by community and positive-thinking).
People pleasers can be easily induced to teach Sunday school, and they usually know the content, and they usually do think that it's good for children, even if they don't buy it themselves. Some people pleasers are their for the sake of their children, for the moral foundation, they talk the talk, are are prime targets for Sunday school recruitment. If their people-pleasing tendencies can get them to a Church they don't agree with, they are highly likely to take on a job just because somebody wants them to.
Fence sitters are often attracted to youth ministry due to the fun, and the wrestling with the tough issues that are often present in that setting. They can't be a youth, so they offer to help supervise, which makes them a leader and a teacher to some degree. They are fun guys and gals, and they are more than able to keep the true depth of their unbelief quiet in company.
And that doesn't even consider the idea not of teaching, but of serving in ways that might present them as a example, such as a musician or a nursery worker.
I hope it makes more sense now.
quote:
It's also clear that Christ said He shows no partiality....So why should we?
Since the first premise is not 'clear' to me, because I don't consider it a universal statement, then I logically do not adhere to the second premise. If you want to, you can present the Scripture, in context, and explain your interpretation, and let me know which leaders or scholars also view it that way. If you choose to do that, then I might be interested in exploring that section of Scripture with you.
quote:
What exactly do you people fear from an unbeliever sitting next to you in church? Are they going to rub off on you or something?
You are aware, then that I gave a 'seeker' a definite 'yes' on my list, right? I don't fear a seeker in the slightest. Further, you may have noticed that I would consider a Church to be right-enough if they welcomed a wide variety of unbelievers for years upon years, for the sake of building relationships. Hence, it ought to be clear that I do not fear them at Church services either.
I do 'fear' the influence of determined sinners. And I believe that there are risks at the inclusion, long-term, of a considerable percentage of unbelievers, if there is not a recognition of their pre-salvation status an particular ministry intent towards them. However, I believe these risks can be recognized and managed by a good body, which is composed primarily of believers who are building each other up for good works and service.
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/6/2009 1:55:22 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1781
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
quote:
It's also clear that Christ said He shows no partiality....So why should we?
Since the first premise is not 'clear' to me, because I don't consider it a universal statement, then I logically do not adhere to the second premise. If you want to, you can present the Scripture, in context, and explain your interpretation, and let me know which leaders or scholars also view it that way. If you choose to do that, then I might be interested in exploring that section of Scripture with you.
He didn't show partiality to anyone when He died on the cross. I don't care which leaders or scholars agree or disagree, the bible says what it says and the HS teaches.
It is interesting that we as believer's have been given such discernment that we can tell who should be teaching and leading our churches.  I wasn't aware that God gave us such powers so as to forget that He is still in control.
Seekers, fence riders...... We do not know what God's plans are for these people. It just isn't our job to determine these things. God can use anyone, anything to capture a person's attention. Even if it is through service work the revelation comes......
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/6/2009 1:58:41 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1781
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Church isn't a place, it is the body of Christ and refers to the gathering of the body of Christ. The lost are NOT part of the body of Christ and, as such, cannot contribute to the ministry within the body.
As the op has stated, for the purposes of this thread, it is referring to the building, unless I am misunderstanding that part. If I am, than what exactly is the problem with what I have stated here? We are the body, unbeliever's walk amongst us day in and day out. If we are living the life Of Christ to others, there should be no disagreement unless you are saying that unbeliever's have no business being around believer's. Then we need to start another thread for that.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/6/2009 2:01:48 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6339
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
He didn't show partiality to anyone when He died on the cross. I don't care which leaders or scholars agree or disagree, the bible says what it says and the HS teaches.
Thus far, you have provided wondrful verses but none support the notion that church is just one big Billy Graham evangelistic crusade.
You and I are huge failures as Christians if we invite the lost to church and feel we've done something special without first establishing a relationship and, then, sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Every unbeliever we are concern about should hear the invitation to meet Jesus from us before they hear an invitation to come to church. THAT is what the Bible says and the Holy Spirit teaches.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/6/2009 2:07:42 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6339
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
As the op has stated, for the purposes of this thread, it is referring to the building, unless I am misunderstanding that part. If I am, than what exactly is the problem with what I have stated here? We are the body, unbeliever's walk amongst us day in and day out. If we are living the life Of Christ to others, there should be no disagreement unless you are saying that unbeliever's have no business being around believer's. Then we need to start another thread for that.
The building, then, can be used to fill up with unbelievers. Then we'll have some kind of club or palce of entertainment, but it will not be the body of Christ meeting for Communion, Baptism, fellowship, worship, praise, and Bible study - and that is where unbelievers have no place, just as they'll have no place in heaven, unless we are witnesses to them before they ever darken the doorway of the building.
All of the unbelievers you've mentioned that are holding places of leadership and ministry in the church were most likely invited by some well-meaning church member that figured they'd get saved if the professionals got to them. Instead of salvation, they merely got religion and learned how to "play" church.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/6/2009 2:55:44 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1781
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
Every unbeliever we are concern about should hear the invitation to meet Jesus from us before they hear an invitation to come to church.
Well, duh! Who said we aren't supposed to be doing this? Did you know the average person hears the gospel at least 16 times before ever accepting it?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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