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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/6/2009 3:00:17 PM
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DeliveredDarling
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quote:
The building, then, can be used to fill up with unbelievers. Then we'll have some kind of club or palce of entertainment, but it will not be the body of Christ meeting for Communion, Baptism, fellowship, worship, praise, and Bible study - and that is where unbelievers have no place, just as they'll have no place in heaven, unless we are witnesses to them before they ever darken the doorway of the building.
All of the unbelievers you've mentioned that are holding places of leadership and ministry in the church were most likely invited by some well-meaning church member that figured they'd get saved if the professionals got to them. Instead of salvation, they merely got religion and learned how to "play" church.
Hello Euty! Welcome to the thread....would you please go back and reread these few pages and tell me where exactly we disagree? I do believe you have stated in the above quotes the same things I have already said...... Did a light bulb go off or something? 
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/6/2009 3:22:41 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1781
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quote:
Your answer indicates you would place an unbeliever or a novice as a Bible teacher. This is not Biblical.
My answer indicates that it is not my job to judge the heart of another.
We can call someone a fence rider because they aren't "behaving" the way we think a good Christian should. Judging in this instance is NOT based upon God's Word, but what we think is acceptable or not.
Let's say the person is a fence rider (what they have been labeled). We don't know them, we only see their behaviors. Do we know if there is something horribly wrong in their life as to why they may be missing church or whatever? They sure "seem" like they may not be dedicated and at the same time, trying so hard to "please" the other members that they are just worn out...
Do you see where I am going with this? We can make rash judgments without having all the facts. Truth is-we can't know another's heart for God.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/6/2009 4:58:11 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6345
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
It just seems very unlikely to me that an unbeliever would want to be a part of leadership or teach something they.....don't believe. That just really doesn't make sense to me and seems very far fetched, actually so far fetched that I don't think it is a real concern.
Many years ago I knew a man that for 7 or 8 years taught Sunday school, became a deacon, and preached for pastors that were out of town. All the while at work and away from church members he cussed like a sailor, drank like a fish, had several women friends (he was married with a small daughter), and was known as a dishonest businessman.
When everything finally came to light, he said he was never really saved but played being a Christian to win his wife when they were dating and to keep her happy after they married.
After getting caught, he never claimed to be a Christian again before he died.
That was the first of several that I've known over the years that, as I described them earlier, merely got religion and learned how to "play" church. A few eventually got saved, others, like the man above, were found out and quit having anything to do with church or Christians.
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/6/2009 5:02:26 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1781
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quote:
Many years ago I knew a man that for 7 or 8 years taught Sunday school, became a deacon, and preached for pastors that were out of town. All the while at work and away from church members he cussed like a sailor, drank like a fish, had several women friends (he was married with a small daughter), and was known as a dishonest businessman.
When everything finally came to light, he said he was never really saved but played being a Christian to win his wife when they were dating and to keep her happy after they married.
After getting caught, he never claimed to be a Christian again before he died.
That was the first of several that I've known over the years that, as I described them earlier, merely got religion and learned how to "play" church. A few eventually got saved, others, like the man above, were found out and quit having anything to do with church or Christians.
I really just don't know how to respond to that......It blows my mind. Knowing Jesus, I just don't get why anyone would want to "play" when the real thing is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better. It truly baffles me. 
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/6/2009 6:04:30 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1781
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quote:
No, not a different story. If you appointed an unbeliever as a teacher, they would be a false teacher. If you appointed a novice as a teacher, they would be a novice--unproven--and you wouldn't know if they were a false teacher or simply an immature teacher, neither of which are good or Biblical.
I should have said.....for another thread.
Actually, I think I would know if they were a false teacher or just not fully informed and would act accordingly.
quote:
Clearly it is part of the OP, and part of your discussion as well:
I didn't see leadership in the op, I'll look again though. 
quote:
I know that most people would say inviting lost people to Church is so they can hear the gospel. Okay, they come they hear they leave the same as they came. Week after week, month after month, year after year. They come on Sunday a.m. that's it and then Christians in the Church wonder why these do not attend Sunday School or get involved in the ministry. Then if they do get involved in the ministry you have lost people supposed to be teaching lost people about Jesus :( Please explain why we are inviting the lost into the Church. Jesus said to go out into the world and make disciples, then they become a part of the body of Christ and then they have a desire for Sunday School and ministry. Please, please explain why this continues to go on.
Bolded is the only mention of leadership that I see. I thought it was an aspect, not a main topic, my mistake. I supposes leadership is on topic, although it doesn't really jive with the title of the thread. Neither here not there.....leadership is fair game
quote:
From your post 68: It is interesting that we as believer's have been given such discernment that we can tell who should be teaching and leading our churches.
Yes, that was the sarcasm I was referring too......(not directed at anyone in particular, just being sarcastic.) It's always helpful to put it in the context that it was used.
Here it is in it's entirety:
quote:
It is interesting that we as believer's have been given such discernment that we can tell who should be teaching and leading our churches. I wasn't aware that God gave us such powers so as to forget that He is still in control.
Bolded-my intention to make a point.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/6/2009 6:23:42 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1781
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quote:
I saw your sarcasm, but it doesn't take away from your meaning.
Actually it does. It was misunderstood. I hope that it is clear now.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/6/2009 9:22:29 PM
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bolt.
Posts: 1758
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From: Canada
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quote:
He didn't show partiality to anyone when He died on the cross. I don't care which leaders or scholars agree or disagree, the bible says what it says and the HS teaches.
The following paragraphs are intended to be taken as sarcasm. I will provide a prose translation following:
No. Obviously, He said to the criminals on both sides of His cross that He'd see them in paradise -- the one who sought Him was treated to the exact same benefits as the one who mocked Him. How could I have forgotten?
And oh my! Those highly intelligent and personally called Biblical scholars who dedicate their lives to the Lord diving deeply into the Word, in the original languages, giving consideration from every angle... they are not to be trusted. It's very important to take our own first glance reading as the one and only possible meaning of a passage, and never let anybody change our mind about it. That's just got to be the correct way for Christians to find out what the Bible really says.
Ok... now for the prose:
(1) Jesus death is an extremely polarizing event that divides the entire world into believers and unbelievers. It is really the epitome of 'partiality' in the sense of distinguishing between those who are 'in Christ' and those who are not.
(2) Only the most arrogant people toss out the opinions of the intelligent teachers among us... without even consulting them first. The Bible is living and powerful, and jumping to conclusions does it a great disservice.
_____________________________
Are you having trouble getting your daily dose of the life changing Word of God?
Let my friend Brian at Daily Audio Bible help you too.
>>audio link<<
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/6/2009 9:27:18 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1781
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quote:
You do not believe in using Biblical standards for appointing teachers and leaders.
I most certainly do believe in using biblical standards, however, i do understand that in ministry people sometimes go through "dry" spells. Stuff happens in people's live and ministry leaders are no exception. I don't believe that labeling them and judging them is the solution to the problem. Coming along side, praying and encouraging them is the answer. If putting them in a role that helps move them along and gets them "unstuck" then so be it.
More often than not, teaching others, teaches the teacher too.
Can you show me scripture that disagrees with what I have said here?
quote:
While it is perfectly Scriptural to have unbelievers attend our "meetings", they should never be placed in teaching or leadership positions. The work of the ministry needs to be done by believers.
Leadership is key here--the elders of the church should know their people, know those who are desiring to serve, and know their testimony and be able to see by their lives that they are following Christ.
Nobody is suggesting that the above should occur. I think you are confusing a few posts and not understanding where these labels came into it. Please go back and reread. You have taken things that I have stated and pulled them completely out of context and changed the meaning of what has been said.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/7/2009 5:56:58 AM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1781
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
Novices, unbelievers, and people practicing sin do not belong in leadership positions in the church.
Again, nobody is advocating that unbeliever's, novices or people who are practicing sin should be in leadership.
I'm sure you do feel comfortable stating this in your posts and I am in agreement.
labeling people as fence riders or novices is very different from a person who is going through a trial and may not "behave" like someone who is not going through a trial.
The difference here is one is going through "a season" the other is a way of life.
Not in one post have I said even suggested that these be put into leadership positions. I argued over and over that it doesn't make sense to do that and why they would even want to.
I have been as open and clear as I can possibly be, yet you continue to pull my words out of context, twist them, just to argue for argument's sake.
Do you really feel that this is the way to be "right". This thread shouldn't be about winning a debate or scoring the most points.
If you have read through the thread, then you have seen that there are Christians on here who DO NOT believe that non-Christians should be invited or allowed to attend.
This is a way more important concept to address that twisting someone's words in order to be right.
You want to talk about leadership, maybe the leadership needs to address how Jesus sees this concept of disallowing non-believer's. You want to go on the offensive? Attack the lessons that are being taught to the Christians here, because it is very apparent to me that Christ isn't apart of their "righteous" lessons.
BTW, just because the qualification of leaders and teachers are laid out in the scriptures, doesn't nullify that the trials of life won't come at them. As a matter of fact, they will come at all of us, teachers, leaders or not. We are told not to worry with them, they are for our perfecting. To pretend that a teacher or leader WILL NEVER face these things is preposterous.
Now I know that we are to judge by the standards that we will be judged by. By the looks of the harsh stance taken--I don't want to be in your shoes when the trials come and you have to face the body.
He desires mercy over sacrifice 
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/7/2009 10:08:24 AM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4161
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
If you have read through the thread, then you have seen that there are Christians on here who DO NOT believe that non-Christians should be invited or allowed to attend.
This is a way more important concept to address that twisting someone's words in order to be right.
You want to talk about leadership, maybe the leadership needs to address how Jesus sees this concept of disallowing non-believer's. You want to go on the offensive? Attack the lessons that are being taught to the Christians here, because it is very apparent to me that Christ isn't apart of their "righteous" lessons.
BTW, just because the qualification of leaders and teachers are laid out in the scriptures, doesn't nullify that the trials of life won't come at them. As a matter of fact, they will come at all of us, teachers, leaders or not. We are told not to worry with them, they are for our perfecting. To pretend that a teacher or leader WILL NEVER face these things is preposterous.
Now I know that we are to judge by the standards that we will be judged by. By the looks of the harsh stance taken--I don't want to be in your shoes when the trials come and you have to face the body.
He desires mercy over sacrifice
Actually, no one has said that unbelievers should not be invited or allowed to attend. That doesn't change the fact that "church"--the gathering of believers--is for believers. You are quoting from the gospels, but leaving out the rest of the NT. There are pretty clear guidelines for how "church" is to be conducted. And it is pretty clear that these gatherings that we call church are for the edification and building up of the body, and further for worship and fellowship. Again, NO ONE has said that unbelievers should NOT be invited or allowed to attend...only that the gathering is not for them.
Anecdotally, I'm personally inclined to disallow unbelievers from any small group (or relational group or whatever your church calls it), having been part of a bible study that was literally obliterated by the presence of unbelievers. There is a time and a place for everything. Not every time and place is for everyone.
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/7/2009 1:21:42 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4161
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Yes, and their children.
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/7/2009 5:10:41 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1781
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
Yes, and their children.
What makes a child any different than an unbeliever?
A child is not born knowing. They are taught......just like an unbeliever.
Many unbeliever's were taught as children and still don't believe.....
So, I fail to see any difference.
1Cr 12:18 But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired.
1Cr 12:19 If they were all one member, where would the body be?
] 1Cr 12:22 On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary;
1Cr 12:23 and those {members} of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable,
Cr 12:24 whereas our more presentable members have no need {of it.} But God has {so} composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that {member} which lacked,
1Cr 12:25 so that there may be no division in the body, but {that} the members may have the same care for one another.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/7/2009 6:28:13 PM
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bolt.
Posts: 1758
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: Canada
Status: offline
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See straw? Good grasp.
_____________________________
Are you having trouble getting your daily dose of the life changing Word of God?
Let my friend Brian at Daily Audio Bible help you too.
>>audio link<<
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/7/2009 6:50:04 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4161
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
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No kidding.
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/7/2009 9:27:12 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1781
Joined: 8/30/2007
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Maybe yall should try looking a whole lot deeper.......
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/7/2009 10:11:06 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4161
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Even the verse you bolded is in line with what others have said in this thread: members of the body. Unbelievers are not part of the body. HOWEVER, believers are commanded to raise up their little ones "in the way they should go" and that includes modeling examples of what it means to be members of the body. If they should not choose Christ during their childhood, then they will be treated like other unbelievers: with kindness, grace and mercy, but NOT as members of the body.
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/7/2009 10:29:29 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1781
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
but NOT as members of the body.
Who said to treat them like members?
An unbeliever is just that..an unbeliever. Some are under the impression that we should have nothing to do with a lost person at all, almost like they might catch a disease. or worse, them being in a church just might contaminate it with sin. It sounds just like the pharisees to me.
Jesus walked side by side with unbelievers. He ate with them, He spent time with them, He healed them, but most of all- He died for them. We were ALL unbelievers at one point and time.
Church is not about us, it's not for us-it is about others-edifying, building up the brethern AND reaching out to the lost. The whole Gospel is for the lost. How do you claim the Gospel when you clearly state that the church is not for evangelism?
That makes no sense.
Even Christians need to be reminded of the Gospel as it is apparent here.
Sin doesn't make us well, however Jesus does. Leaving the Gospel out of church is kicking Jesus to the curb for the sake of one's own version of "purity".
For the record the gospel is about saving souls which equals evangelism.....
I just really thought that was a no brainer for Christians...
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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