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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/7/2009 10:38:55 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4166
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Ha! I am the absolute last person that will tell anyone to stay away from unbelievers. 
The church as a whole is called to evangelize, yes. Different churches accomplish that in different ways. Some churches fixate on evangelism and every service becomes Christianity 101. This is great for unbelievers, seekers, fence-sitters and new Christians. It is not good for other believers who are clearly told by scripture to seek meat, not milk.
Jesus was all about gathering the first flock, if you will. But we are given lots of examples and guidelines throughout the rest of the NT, as the church grew, that show us how to handle what we now know as church--the gathering of believers. You can't just take the parts that make you feel warm and fuzzy and leave the rest. It all has to be taken as a big picture and in context.
No one has once said evangelism and outreach are not part of our mission. No one has said that unbelievers should not be invited or allowed to come to services. What we have said is that, aside from any special evangelistic services, the gathering together to worship, take communion, study scripture and fellowship is primarily for believers. And it is that way by scriptural design.
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/7/2009 10:51:04 PM
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crankius
Posts: 3755
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Back to the OP:
quote:
ORIGINAL: BoldforChrist
I know that most people would say inviting lost people to Church is so they can hear the gospel. Okay, they come they hear they leave the same as they came. Week after week, month after month, year after year. They come on Sunday a.m. that's it and then Christians in the Church wonder why these do not attend Sunday School or get involved in the ministry. Then if they do get involved in the ministry you have lost people supposed to be teaching lost people about Jesus :( Please explain why we are inviting the lost into the Church. Jesus said to go out into the world and make disciples, then they become a part of the body of Christ and then they have a desire for Sunday School and ministry. Please, please explain why this continues to go on.
I like Eph 4:11-16.
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
Some key phrases: for the equipping of the saints...for the edifying of itself in love.
1 Cor 12 is also an excellent chapter to study for understanding how God wants the church to function. It clarifies that the manifestation of the Spirit is for the benefit of all in the body.
1 Cor 14:12 clarifies "...let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel."
Scripture teaches us that the gathering of the saints is not the same thing as evangelism. Our gathering is for the body, to edify itself.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
Church Covenants
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/7/2009 10:52:05 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1782
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
The church as a whole is called to evangelize, yes. Different churches accomplish that in different ways. Some churches fixate on evangelism and every service becomes Christianity 101. This is great for unbelievers, seekers, fence-sitters and new Christians. It is not good for other believers who are clearly told by scripture to seek meat, not milk.
Jesus was all about gathering the first flock, if you will. But we are given lots of examples and guidelines throughout the rest of the NT, as the church grew, that show us how to handle what we now know as church--the gathering of believers. You can't just take the parts that make you feel warm and fuzzy and leave the rest. It all has to be taken as a big picture and in context.
No one has once said evangelism and outreach are not part of our mission. No one has said that unbelievers should not be invited or allowed to come to services. What we have said is that, aside from any special evangelistic services, the gathering together to worship, take communion, study scripture and fellowship is primarily for believers. And it is that way by scriptural design.
What is doesn't say is do or not do this all in a church service!
If we congregate-then anyone should be welcome just as it was when Jesus was walking, talking, preaching and healing.
The scriptural design did not exclude people! 1 Corinthians deals with unbeliever's and sinners in the church...and it showed how to deal with it as well.
It also talks about speaking in tongues and what it would do if an unbeliever were to enter. So that tells me, that unbeliever's did come in and check it out. Some were saved and some considered them mad.
So, I'm thinking the scriptural design needs to be looked at again and see i some things weren't missed.
As far as worship goes,, personally, I could care less if an unbeliever is standing next to me. It has no bearing on my time with the Lord. Worship is about HIM, not who my neighbor is.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/7/2009 10:56:37 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4166
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
The church as a whole is called to evangelize, yes. Different churches accomplish that in different ways. Some churches fixate on evangelism and every service becomes Christianity 101. This is great for unbelievers, seekers, fence-sitters and new Christians. It is not good for other believers who are clearly told by scripture to seek meat, not milk.
Jesus was all about gathering the first flock, if you will. But we are given lots of examples and guidelines throughout the rest of the NT, as the church grew, that show us how to handle what we now know as church--the gathering of believers. You can't just take the parts that make you feel warm and fuzzy and leave the rest. It all has to be taken as a big picture and in context.
No one has once said evangelism and outreach are not part of our mission. No one has said that unbelievers should not be invited or allowed to come to services. What we have said is that, aside from any special evangelistic services, the gathering together to worship, take communion, study scripture and fellowship is primarily for believers. And it is that way by scriptural design.
What is doesn't say is do or not do this all in a church service!
If we congregate-then anyone should be welcome just as it was when Jesus was walking, talking, preaching and healing.
The scriptural design did not exclude people! 1 Corinthians deals with unbeliever's and sinners in the church...and it showed how to deal with it as well.
It also talks about speaking in tongues and what it would do if an unbeliever were to enter. So that tells me, that unbeliever's did come in and check it out. Some were saved and some considered them mad.
So, I'm thinking the scriptural design needs to be looked at again and see i some things weren't missed.
As far as worship goes,, personally, I could care less if an unbeliever is standing next to me. It has no bearing on my time with the Lord. Worship is about HIM, not who my neighbor is.
I frankly don't understand what you're arguing anymore. The verses crankius listed above are very important, but NO ONE IN THIS THREAD HAS SAID THAT UNBELIEVERS CANNOT COME TO SERVICES.
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/7/2009 11:03:21 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1782
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
I like Eph 4:11-16.
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
Some key phrases: for the equipping of the saints...for the edifying of itself in love.
1 Cor 12 is also an excellent chapter to study for understanding how God wants the church to function. It clarifies that the manifestation of the Spirit is for the benefit of all in the body.
1 Cor 14:12 clarifies "...let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel."
Scripture teaches us that the gathering of the saints is not the same thing as evangelism. Our gathering is for the body, to edify itself.
Agreed.....however salvation has to come first or the rest is useless.
How many"saints" are presently in this body who no more care to be equipped than the man in the moon?
From the OP: they come they hear and the remain the same day after day......
Lost as a goose.....A person cannot really HEAR the Truth of the Gospel and NOT be changed.
The lost walk among us ever so cleverly deceived, while deceiving us and others.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/7/2009 11:06:26 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4166
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
I like Eph 4:11-16.
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
Some key phrases: for the equipping of the saints...for the edifying of itself in love.
1 Cor 12 is also an excellent chapter to study for understanding how God wants the church to function. It clarifies that the manifestation of the Spirit is for the benefit of all in the body.
1 Cor 14:12 clarifies "...let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel."
Scripture teaches us that the gathering of the saints is not the same thing as evangelism. Our gathering is for the body, to edify itself.
Agreed.....however salvation has to come first or the rest is useless.
How many"saints" are presently in this body who no more care to be equipped than the man in the moon?
From the OP: they come they hear and the remain the same day after day......
Lost as a goose.....A person cannot really HEAR the Truth of the Gospel and NOT be changed.
The lost walk among us ever so cleverly deceived, while deceiving us and others.
That is a completely different issue. What to do with the deceitful lost among us has nothing to do with whether we consciously involve unbelievers in our services. Although I would submit to you that it could easily be argued we are in this situation because the doors have been open to those who are not like-minded.
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/8/2009 6:26:31 AM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1782
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
What to do with the deceitful lost among us has nothing to do with whether we consciously involve unbelievers in our services.
No, it's not. Lost is lost. It doesn't matter what they may "look" like. We need to be just as concerned for them as we are the lost outside of the church.
Point being, if the lost are not welcomed into our body, then every church needs to take a poll and remove the unbeliever's, fence riders, wishy washy, etc...... They might interfere in our study and worship! (sarcasm off)
Do you now see how we are picking and choosing who to allow in our service based on criteria?
The gospel is not about someone's "right" behavior. It's not for the "righteous" alone. Here, it sounds like people have to be "cleaned" up before they can even pursue or question God.
quote:
Although I would submit to you that it could easily be argued we are in this situation because the doors have been open to those who are not like-minded.
Yeah, the pharisees gave us that example already and Jesus had a lot to say to them. It didn't work for them then, and He still won't tolerate it now. He didn't change from then to present day did He?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/8/2009 7:29:42 AM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 1168
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
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quote:
Point being, if the lost are not welcomed into our body, then every church needs to take a poll and remove the unbeliever's, fence riders, wishy washy, etc...... They might interfere in our study and worship! (sarcasm off) Do you now see how we are picking and choosing who to allow in our service based on criteria?
The anabaptist notion of "the gathered church" asserted that that life is binary,[0] digital, folks either are saved, or are not saved, and there is no in-between. Salvation is the matter of a moment -- so some even believed in keeping their kids ignorant until they had their moment. Then, they would not know how to fake it.
The more traditional vision of the Church was of a field where the elect and the reprobate grew together. People are on pilgrimages, towards God, or away from God. The elect normally experience regeneration at some point, as they sit under the ministry of the Word, partake of the Sacraments, and seek to avoid offending God. But it is God who does the regenerating, using the means He has ordained.[1]
This is more of an analog process. Am I more obedient today than I was 10 years ago? Do I know God better, and am I better able to serve Him? Is my wife happy? Are my children growing up to appreciate His favor and live for His glory?
I do not know if those around me are saved or not saved. Maybe it's none of my business. If they assent to the creeds, avoid visible scandal, and keep showing up, maybe that's all the "proof" God wants to give me that His hand is upon them.
[0] There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
[1] The typical Baptistic conversion is a man-made event, catalyzed by a professional orator who takes indecent liberties with the souls of those hearing him in an artificial situation.
_____________________________
Blogging my way through the Turkish New Testament
Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/8/2009 7:34:21 AM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1782
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
I do not know if those around me are saved or not saved. Maybe it's none of my business. If they assent to the creeds, avoid visible scandal, and keep showing up, maybe that's all the "proof" God wants to give me that His hand is upon them.
I didn't know the part about the anabaptist thing...that's interesting.
We can say it's none of our business, however, I find that to be unbiblical.
We can't fulfill the 2 great commands and live oblivious to those around us.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/8/2009 9:28:28 AM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4166
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
What to do with the deceitful lost among us has nothing to do with whether we consciously involve unbelievers in our services.
No, it's not. Lost is lost. It doesn't matter what they may "look" like. We need to be just as concerned for them as we are the lost outside of the church.
Point being, if the lost are not welcomed into our body, then every church needs to take a poll and remove the unbeliever's, fence riders, wishy washy, etc...... They might interfere in our study and worship! (sarcasm off)
Do you now see how we are picking and choosing who to allow in our service based on criteria?
I'm not picking and choosing anyone. I will continue to insist, with biblical backing, that church as we know as a "gathering of the saints" is to edify and equip the elect. I have never said, nor has anyone else, that unbelievers can't be there. Those who are faking it will answer to God, not me.
And yes, there is a difference in having someone who takes part in the goings on of a church, going through the motions and never believing and someone who is completely ignorant of the Word. The former walk among us, deceitful, perhaps for years. The latter may be with us because they felt drawn by Holy Spirit, or perhaps because we took the time to evangelize them and we hope to bring them into the fold.
quote:
The gospel is not about someone's "right" behavior. It's not for the "righteous" alone. Here, it sounds like people have to be "cleaned" up before they can even pursue or question God.
We perhaps need a definition of gospel, insofar as it relates to teaching from the pulpit.
quote:
quote:
Although I would submit to you that it could easily be argued we are in this situation because the doors have been open to those who are not like-minded.
Yeah, the pharisees gave us that example already and Jesus had a lot to say to them. It didn't work for them then, and He still won't tolerate it now. He didn't change from then to present day did He?
If you can't tell the difference between the Pharisees and how we are commanded to handle the gathering of the body, then I'm probably done here.
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/8/2009 11:30:14 AM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 1168
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From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
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quote:
We perhaps need a definition of gospel, insofar as it relates to teaching from the pulpit.
Well, τὸ εὐαγγέλιον literally means "glad announcement." In cultural context, it refers to the shout of the herald alerting people to the fact that the King has come to town. In the Biblical context, the word refers to the good news that our King has come and, for those who have the eyes to see it, now reigns among us for God's glory and our benefit.
This is a glad occasion. In the presence of the Great King, sadness can be a capital offence. Nehemiah had reason to worry when his king noted his unhappy countenance! In view of all that Jesus has done for us, complaining, moaning, and grumbling are horrifyingly inappropriate, to say the least!
The Gospel is the glad news that our God reigns! Let the earth rejoice! A theme as old as the Bible, frequently erupting in the Psalms, for example.
What is our condign response?
First of all, to pledge our allegiance to this King.
From then on, to serve Him, to the best of our abilities, and to keep on learning to do so better.
If we restrict our response to a mere pledge of allegiance, we sort of miss the whole point. We sit at the King's Table, eat His food, are incorporated into His body, hear His Word, and wear His uniform, so that we can serve His ongoing purposes. We have something to live for that is far bigger than ourselves, soemthing of eternal value. And THAT is good news, indeed!
As a Calvinist, I love the picture of the Kingdom as a feast, a wild and wonderful party. I tell my non-Christian friends, "Come on in, check it out! Your name might be on one of the place settings!"
To return to the OP, though -- I've invited Muslims to church -- but only after a year or two of spending time with them as a genuine friend.
_____________________________
Blogging my way through the Turkish New Testament
Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/8/2009 12:31:33 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1782
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
If you can't tell the difference between the Pharisees and how we are commanded to handle the gathering of the body, then I'm probably done here.
I'm clear on the difference, I think for some it just may be tough to hear.
RJR, gave a fabulous definition of the Gospel as it relates to the pulpit and beyond.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/8/2009 4:40:04 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4166
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
To return to the OP, though -- I've invited Muslims to church -- but only after a year or two of spending time with them as a genuine friend.
So you didn't invite them to church so that they could hear the gospel? You actually laid the groundwork beforehand and then invited them to see how you "do church?"
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/8/2009 9:07:32 PM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 1168
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
Status: offline
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quote:
So you didn't invite them to church so that they could hear the gospel? You actually laid the groundwork beforehand and then invited them to see how you "do church?"
Exactly.
Had I not shared the gospel with my friends before I went, they would have only seen a religious version of a rock concert -- band up front, backup vocalists, followed by stand-up routine.
When you start befriending grad students from Muslim nations, your family is your most effective testimony. Not a tract. Not a church service. Their hearts are touched by living fathers, mothers, and children who sincerely love them, and wish them well. On the one hand, it takes more effort to tidy up the house, buy a kosher frozen turkey for an exorbitant price, and serve a halal dinner. OTOH, you can expect return invitations.[1]
[1] In my experience, a Muslim from another country is more likely to issue a return invitation than an American Christian from one's own church!
_____________________________
Blogging my way through the Turkish New Testament
Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/17/2009 1:30:25 AM
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BoldforChrist
Posts: 44
Joined: 4/16/2009
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Wow, it's been interesting to read from my brothers and sisters in Christ! Now as I was reading through, a thought came to me. Jesus, got alone with his disciples to teach them and fellowship and brake bread with them. The key here is he got alone with them! Notice he didn't invite everyone to these gatherings! Discipleship training was going on that the unbelievers were not to receive. The disciples were learning how to evangelize the lost! Praise the Lord, that the Lord knew his children would need training to be effective in the ministry set before them. And as the disciples needed training so do we, the BODY OF CHRIST, for the ministry that is set before us, EVANGELIZING THE LOST.
Another reason we need to be with just the body of Christ is to be lifted up in prayer, anointed with oil, encouraged and comforted. The world is a big place and persecution of believers is everywhere. The time that true believers come together should be a time of refreshing for us. And just when is that supposed to happen if everytime we come together the lost are brought into the fold? Just a question.
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/17/2009 1:42:31 AM
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Elena1030
Posts: 2104
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: Music City, USA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BoldforChrist
Wow, it's been interesting to read from my brothers and sisters in Christ! Now as I was reading through, a thought came to me. Jesus, got alone with his disciples to teach them and fellowship and brake bread with them. The key here is he got alone with them! Notice he didn't invite everyone to these gatherings! Discipleship training was going on that the unbelievers were not to receive. The disciples were learning how to evangelize the lost! Praise the Lord, that the Lord knew his children would need training to be effective in the ministry set before them. And as the disciples needed training so do we, the BODY OF CHRIST, for the ministry that is set before us, EVANGELIZING THE LOST.
Another reason we need to be with just the body of Christ is to be lifted up in prayer, anointed with oil, encouraged and comforted. The world is a big place and persecution of believers is everywhere. The time that true believers come together should be a time of refreshing for us. And just when is that supposed to happen if everytime we come together the lost are brought into the fold? Just a question.
That's why my church has training times specifically for leaders and teachers. And we have discipleship groups that are geared toward believers.
Sunday School and worship are open for anyone to attend. And you can be a member of a Sunday School [SS] class w/out being a member of the church or even a believer yet -- b/c SS class membership just means "I, the attender, commit to this class" + "We the teacher and the lay leaders of the class commit to you." We Southern Baptists tend to see Sunday School as an evangelistic tool (the primary one, actually). It's supposed to be open Bible study -- available to anyone. That's where an unbeliever can hear the Word AND be loved on by Christians. Ideally, the church members do exactly as RJR_fan describes and become friends with unbelievers and extend an invitation to Sunday School as a natural outgrowth of the friendship with the person.
To be a member of the adult choir, I believe you have to be a Christian. (Which would make sense... to usher others into the presence, you have to be allowed to get there for yourself!)
There's still a lot that seekers can do alongside the church -- service projects like a Habitat for Humanity build, for example. Or going with a group of Christian friends from the church and playing sand volleyball after church. (I have a friend who got saved b/c the young adult singles built relationships with him via Sunday School and after-church sand volleyball.)
I think we're all agreeing on the same things -- we just emphasize different facets of how the church IS and how it functions. Sounds as if some of us are bent more toward being passionate about evangelizing and others of us are more passionate about discipling growing believers. And the church is to be doing both. It's a both-and thing, rather than an either-or. At least... that's how I see it.
_____________________________
Prayer thread for singles who desire to marry someday
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RE: Inviting the Lost to Church? - 10/19/2009 6:30:54 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1782
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
I think we're all agreeing on the same things -- we just emphasize different facets of how the church IS and how it functions. Sounds as if some of us are bent more toward being passionate about evangelizing and others of us are more passionate about discipling growing believers. And the church is to be doing both. It's a both-and thing, rather than an either-or. At least... that's how I see it.
I think you are right. We emphasize different parts because we all are different parts to make a "whole" body with Jesus as the Head.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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