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RE: What is Marriage? - 10/17/2009 11:08:24 PM
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bolt.
Posts: 1762
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From: Canada
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I'm seeing a difference between "What I 'need' to be happy." and "What I need to live and serve God." We do not need the active love of a spouse to live and serve God. Unmarried people live and serve God. Widows and widowers live and serve God. And married people who have crummy spouses can do so too.
I also didn't mean 'unfaithfulness' (as in having an affair) when I was saying to remain faithful to the marriage vows. I was talking about avoiding voiding your vows by treating your spouse in cold, unloving, disrespectful ways when you vowed to love and honour him. Being faithful to the vows would mean to go on acting in accordance with love and honour, and not concerning yourself if the other person is keeping up their end of a 'bargain' that is not a bargain. Of course, one should also avoid getting 'needs' met by another person in an intimate way... but that wasn't my primary intent in this discussion.
I know 'suck it up' sounds cruel -- but if the situation is not going to change, then the options really are only to either suck it up, or wallow in it and cry (or get angry). I've found that people who face a situation, knowing what they are capable of doing, only -- they tend to get through it, and progress gets made on both sides simply by the power of example and the change in climate. Of those who choose wallowing, I've not seen much healing. And even if progress does not get made in the marriage, at least the spouse who is sucking it up has a calling and a hope and something with which to occupy themself and have an impact for the kingdom. There is much less suffering on that path.
_____________________________
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RE: What is Marriage? - 10/18/2009 9:43:59 AM
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herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1476
Joined: 3/13/2009
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This thing about our spouse not meeting our 'needs' seems to be one that is used so much these. days.
My husbands ex said that he wasnt meeting her 'emotional needs' and actually he didnt have a clue what she meant. He was a good husband and dad. he did far over and above his share of the house work as well as working full time. He gave and gave while she took and took, he tried to keep her happy while she made no effort to do anythng to keep him happy, and yet he was still at fault apparently and she divorced him. This was wrong and sinful but it actually did him a favour as it set him free from the prison that she had him in. He has now come alive both emotionally and spiritually.
Some people are actually never content with that they have, and others are impossible to please no matter what you do for them.
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RE: What is Marriage? - 10/18/2009 4:35:50 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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From: being knit together in my mother's womb
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I think that one of the main things that goes wrong with marriages in which the couple truly desires to have a biblial marriage is this: nowhere in the Bible does it say that the husband is the head of the house. Nowhere. Yet that is said all the time, spoken from the pulpit, and articles are written on it.
If Messiah is not the head of the home, the wrong person is.
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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What is Marriage? - 10/18/2009 5:12:52 PM
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PinkCarnations
Posts: 10816
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
I think that one of the main things that goes wrong with marriages in which the couple truly desires to have a biblial marriage is this: nowhere in the Bible does it say that the husband is the head of the house. Nowhere. Yet that is said all the time, spoken from the pulpit, and articles are written on it.
If Messiah is not the head of the home, the wrong person is.
I agree especially with the last sentence!
_____________________________
Thank you Veterans.
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RE: What is Marriage? - 10/18/2009 8:53:13 PM
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herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1476
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quote:
ORIGINAL: heremainsfaithful
I agree that verses like Phil. 4:11 (which is really talking about people giving the writer what he needed monetarily, but it still works) and Phil 4:19 are invaluable verses for this type of situation. In point of fact,you really don't have to have a loving and fulfilling marriage to serve God. Neither do you need your eyesight, your legs, your hair, your voice, both your kidneys....I think you get the idea.
I am very skeptical of the idea that there are a bunch o marriages out there where one spouse is doing absolutely everything perfectly and the other spouse does absolutely nothing. There are two sides to every story.
That being said, I guess I am like a woman who just found a store with a great shoe sale. I want all my friends to get in on the bargain and the cute strappy sandals - ha!  I am in a marriage where we both actively love each other and seek to meet each others needs (and n, I won't apologize for that word). I have a need for affection; he has learned to do neat things like hug me for no reason as we meet in the hall. He has a need for order. Even though I really do hate housework I do the best I can to do that (not perfect yet). I want their people to have what we have because it rocks. And I think it can happen in most (maybe not all) cases. So no, I feel no guilt whatsoever in trying to help someone have that kind of a marriage.
Well there are marriages like that where one is the taker and one is the giver believe me, I know a few.In the case of my husband first marriage others have said the same thing to me who knew them before. ie that she was the taker and he was the giver.Also I have known marriages like that in my own family and friends.
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RE: What is Marriage? - 10/20/2009 9:02:52 AM
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browneyes222
Posts: 157
Joined: 10/4/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
I think that one of the main things that goes wrong with marriages in which the couple truly desires to have a biblial marriage is this: nowhere in the Bible does it say that the husband is the head of the house. Nowhere. Yet that is said all the time, spoken from the pulpit, and articles are written on it.
If Messiah is not the head of the home, the wrong person is.
How do you interpret Ephesian 5?
On topic, marriage should not be a prison camp or just staying married regardless to be a martyr. Love, honor, cherish, forsake all others including idols is part of the vows. Keeping vows I believe in. Staying married by name only I do not see as God honoring or benefiting anyone.
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RE: What is Marriage? - 10/20/2009 9:42:24 AM
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Katie51
Posts: 227
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bolt.
Where did you read in the Bible that we are entitled to expect more than a few certain things from our spouse?
I read a lot about how God calls (and expects) his followers to act. I see nothing about us setting those up as standards for one another.
"Having none of your needs met" is a silly way to describe this life. If none of our needs are met, we die, then we go to be with Christ, which is fine.
Having no marriage relationship (as in being single) or having a semi-crummy one (like this) is not going to kill us. It's not going to be a disaster. It's going to be painful, and it's an unpleasant way to live, but the good things we derive from a satisfactory marriage are not make-or-break things. The Christian life is bigger than that.
It takes two doing great things to have a happy, fulfilling, intimate, successful, godly marriage -- but that's not what you get if your spouse isn't interested. So, there needs to be a plan for when your spouse isn't interested. And that plan is to run your own life in a godly way, and stop setting your hopes on somebody who has shown no interest in rising to 'expectations'. What's the other plan for a spouse who's not interested? Shake them until they start to be godly?
There is no other person willing to carry any load here. So either she carrys it as best she can (not perfectly of course) or she chooses unfaithfulness to her own vows. But that comes full-circle. If she wants to be who God calls her to be in a marriage, that's between her and God -- it has very little to do with her husband or her emotional 'needs'.
I'm not talking about 'dutiful, servantly, submissive' stuff -- I'm talking about normal expressions of love between partners... just in the absence of him doing whatever would normally be reciprocal.
She can choose to be satisfied, or she can choose to work for change -- she just can't choose for him to work for change. It's not a morality thing, it's straightforward physics. Choosing for someone else to do something is impossible any way you look at it.
heremains, I doubt that you 'tried' the no expectations route -- as in having no expectations at a heart-and-will level. Could you, at the time, have said, "I'm married to a crumb, and it hurts -- but it is what it is and my faithfulness is not towards him but to God. Now what else worthwhile can I do with my life?" I think it more likely, since you say your frustration went through the roof, that you continued in your heart to engage in 'he should have' and 'I wish he would' sort of stuff. (Or else maybe he was actively sinning against you, not just disengaging after a reasonable effort. I don't want to take guesswork too far on a few sentences, but I feel you've misunderstood the meat of my recommendation.)
heremains says she tried it. i am another who tried it. No where, and I repeat NO WHERE does the Bible say I am to expect NOTHING from my spouse. He was to love me the way Christ loved the church. That is more than just unpleasant when one spouse does nothing and is chronically "a crumb". It demolishes the children , the extended family and the spouse. It isnt going to kill us? Not so sure as some in this stressful situation develop stress related illnesses. I know of one woman who has had several trips to the ER and heart docs carrying the load of a useless disconnected spouse. She has chest pain. Her husband, from years of living as a selfish spoiled brat, DOES have heart disease in his 50s. Maybe his choice to be chronically negative caused that, bolt.
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RE: What is Marriage? - 10/20/2009 9:46:14 AM
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Katie51
Posts: 227
Joined: 1/8/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: browneyes222
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
I think that one of the main things that goes wrong with marriages in which the couple truly desires to have a biblial marriage is this: nowhere in the Bible does it say that the husband is the head of the house. Nowhere. Yet that is said all the time, spoken from the pulpit, and articles are written on it.
If Messiah is not the head of the home, the wrong person is.
How do you interpret Ephesian 5?
On topic, marriage should not be a prison camp or just staying married regardless to be a martyr. Love, honor, cherish, forsake all others including idols is part of the vows. Keeping vows I believe in. Staying married by name only I do not see as God honoring or benefiting anyone.
I agree. God doesnt expect His children to live in constant stress, pain, misery for 30 or 40 plus years with someone who is unrepentant. I just dont see that in the God shown to us in Jesus Christ. Jesus was always about relationship. A marriage like that is about ...nothing. A man is chronically negative, depressed but refusing all help, hateful, rude to his inlaws, ignores his childrens absurd behavior....No. enough is enough sometimes.
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RE: What is Marriage? - 10/20/2009 10:04:01 AM
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heremainsfaithful
Posts: 190
Joined: 10/14/2009
From: Alabama
Status: online
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I'm gonna get really specific fer ya:
I am married to a spouse who loves me in word and deed. He tells me he loves me, he helps me, he hugs me, he talks with me, he seeks to meet the needs that I have on our marriage. Because of that, it is a joy to do the same for him.
If I were married to a spouse who thought saying I do was enough, who basically told me I was unspiritual for having needs, and told me that since I had no biblical grounds for having expectations, not to expect him to meet any....I would still be obligated to be the wife God calls me to be, but it sure would be miserable.
Thank God I am not married to that kind of a spouse. But I do feel sorry for anyone who is.
You can talk about how people can survive in lazy, dead marriages all you want. But is that what you want for your spouse? Mere survival? And is that the kind of marriage you want your kids to see? I sure don't.
_____________________________
Jer. 29:11, II Tim. 2:13, Jude 24, 25
https://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.aspx?bookid=58896
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RE: What is Marriage? - 10/20/2009 12:19:52 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3185
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: being knit together in my mother's womb
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quote:
ORIGINAL: browneyes222
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
I think that one of the main things that goes wrong with marriages in which the couple truly desires to have a biblial marriage is this: nowhere in the Bible does it say that the husband is the head of the house. Nowhere. Yet that is said all the time, spoken from the pulpit, and articles are written on it.
If Messiah is not the head of the home, the wrong person is.
How do you interpret Ephesian 5?
Which part, specifically?
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: What is Marriage? - 10/20/2009 3:29:46 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 3812
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: heremainsfaithful
You can talk about how people can survive in lazy, dead marriages all you want. But is that what you want for your spouse? Mere survival? And is that the kind of marriage you want your kids to see? I sure don't.
No, of course not. That is why I have tried to emulate Messiah in that I give all I can to the relationship, and expect nothing in return.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: What is Marriage? - 10/21/2009 12:34:10 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3185
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: being knit together in my mother's womb
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
That is why I have tried to emulate Messiah in that I give all I can to the relationship, and expect nothing in return.
I worry about this attitude, which is the biblical one and the one my husband shows me. I don't know if I reciprocate fully. Faults are so hard for me to see many times unless someone points them out, and he never does. Sometimes, I wonder if he feels ripped off, especially over the last few years, because I had been sick, in pain, etc. so much. Now that I am so much better and finally have some energy, maybe I can do better for him as well.
But then I don't suppose you would even converse about a man in such a relationship as the one you describe feeling ripped off . . . .
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: What is Marriage? - 10/21/2009 8:30:47 AM
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browneyes222
Posts: 157
Joined: 10/4/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Katie51
quote:
ORIGINAL: browneyes222
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
I think that one of the main things that goes wrong with marriages in which the couple truly desires to have a biblial marriage is this: nowhere in the Bible does it say that the husband is the head of the house. Nowhere. Yet that is said all the time, spoken from the pulpit, and articles are written on it.
If Messiah is not the head of the home, the wrong person is.
How do you interpret Ephesian 5?
On topic, marriage should not be a prison camp or just staying married regardless to be a martyr. Love, honor, cherish, forsake all others including idols is part of the vows. Keeping vows I believe in. Staying married by name only I do not see as God honoring or benefiting anyone.
I agree. God doesnt expect His children to live in constant stress, pain, misery for 30 or 40 plus years with someone who is unrepentant. I just dont see that in the God shown to us in Jesus Christ. Jesus was always about relationship. A marriage like that is about ...nothing. A man is chronically negative, depressed but refusing all help, hateful, rude to his inlaws, ignores his childrens absurd behavior....No. enough is enough sometimes.
A marriage with nothing or zero expectations of anything, no sex, no communication or bad behavior like you listed is not much of a marriage.
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RE: What is Marriage? - 10/21/2009 12:00:27 PM
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bolt.
Posts: 1762
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: Canada
Status: online
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quote:
heremains says she tried it. i am another who tried it. No where, and I repeat NO WHERE does the Bible say I am to expect NOTHING from my spouse. He was to love me the way Christ loved the church. That is more than just unpleasant when one spouse does nothing and is chronically "a crumb". It demolishes the children , the extended family and the spouse. It isn't going to kill us? Not so sure as some in this stressful situation develop stress related illnesses. I know of one woman who has had several trips to the ER and heart docs carrying the load of a [insult omitted] disconnected spouse. She has chest pain. Her husband, from years of living as [name calling omitted], DOES have heart disease in his 50s. Maybe his choice to be chronically negative caused that, bolt.
I'm still waiting for where you read in the Bible anything (beyond basic faithfulness) that you do have a right to expect. The line about loving 'me' as Christ loves the Church is God speaking to His male married followers. If a man is failing that, it is not his wife that he is failing, but his God. God expects him to do better. His wife is expected to manage her own life with or without that wonderful dynamic that comes from a godly husband.
If you have "a crumb" you really can only talk about two things: how to survive it, and whether there might be anything for you to try to initiate change. There's just not much sense in simply deciding it's the other person's job, and sitting in a funk until they get to it. I do agree that it's the other person's job. I do agree that it's sad when one person suffers because of another's crummy choices, and sometimes the stress is unavoidable and has physical effects. When were we promised that we would not suffer from other people's behaviour? I hate to see people give up on victory in the face of adversity. Adversity in our intimate relationships is a hard one, a very hard one, but I just hate to see people embrace defeat due to it.
I thought we could get past all that and into the realm of what to do about it.
(Please note, I am saying 'crummy' choices for a reason. Sins are another thing entirely. A spouse who is unrepentantly sinning against the other on a regular basis should face both confrontation and possible separation. I wonder about the behaviour that you mentioned 'demolishing children' that's probably sin against them -- a vastly different thing.)
_____________________________
Are you having trouble getting your daily dose of the life changing Word of God?
Let my friend Brian at Daily Audio Bible help you too.
>>audio link<<
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RE: What is Marriage? - 10/22/2009 9:12:40 AM
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heremainsfaithful
Posts: 190
Joined: 10/14/2009
From: Alabama
Status: online
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Alrighty then. I have to admit, there is no verse in the Bible that says "Thous shalt expect thy spouse to treat thee well." So let's approach it from the being obient to God angle and remove all expectations. Any spouse worth their salt OUGHT TO want to be the best spouse they can be. Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God the Father through Him (Col 3:17). Those kinds of verses will work. Sitting around putting your job off on your spouse because it is wrong for them to "expect" anything is in opposition to the verse I just quoted.
Again, is it that hard to just quit having to pick someone apart and be a good spouse? As someone on another forum said, would you rather be right or would you rather have a real marriage?
_____________________________
Jer. 29:11, II Tim. 2:13, Jude 24, 25
https://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.aspx?bookid=58896
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fun he doesnt want to watch TV----I plan things to do on Sat and we just go do them---
