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RE: What's wrong with Messianic Judaism? - 11/1/2009 8:36:39 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
So Bluethread are you saying that Jesus Christ is not necessary (and the All in All) for the remission of sins?
Thanks
RC
The remission of the penalty for sin as well as the example and power behind changing ones behavior, yes. The mystical making of all things right, impartation of assurance and creation of a harmonious society simply through the invocation of those two words, no. We are not machines or droids that immediately change with a flick if the "God said it, I believe it and that settles it." switch. As with any human relationship, there are things that are done that provide constant reassurance of the nature of that relationship. A husband may be providing all of the things that are essential for making his family secure, but that does not mean that the wife and children do not have a need to do certain things to assure themselves of that security. The errent child may very well be forgiven, but there is a need for children to take some action that affirms that to themselves.
Nice eloquent howbeit unresponsive post to my question; though I think you are saying the Belief in Jesus Chrust is not sufficient. I mean I am not asking about rocket science here, so I will try again;
So Bluethread are you saying that Jesus Christ is not necessary (and the All in All) for the remission of sins? (you know like in John 3:16)
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 11/1/2009 8:43:20 AM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: What's wrong with Messianic Judaism? - 11/1/2009 12:36:22 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
"Which veil?" A redundant question. Now why don't you actually address it?
I do not see how asking which veil is redundant. No one has yet stated where this veil is in the temple so we can properly look at any analogy which might follow. I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page and take this one step at a time to avoid confusion. Well, I will take the next step in the hopes that we agree on which veil was rent. The veil seperated the Holy of Holies from the Holy place. The doors of the Temple (or veils in the tabernacle) still remained. Therefore, all of the priest had access to the Holy of Holies, not those in the outer court or the rabbinic court of the gentiles. Now I do not what to get too far head, so before we move on to the amplication of this to the Heavenly Temple and what remains of the value of the Temple as a symbol of that, is there any objection to this view of what happened to the temple at the time of The Sacrifice?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/1/2009 12:43:38 PM >
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RE: What's wrong with Messianic Judaism? - 11/1/2009 3:54:15 PM
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Corne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
"Which veil?" A redundant question. Now why don't you actually address it?
I do not see how asking which veil is redundant. No one has yet stated where this veil is in the temple so we can properly look at any analogy which might follow. I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page and take this one step at a time to avoid confusion. Well, I will take the next step in the hopes that we agree on which veil was rent. The veil seperated the Holy of Holies from the Holy place. The doors of the Temple (or veils in the tabernacle) still remained. Therefore, all of the priest had access to the Holy of Holies, not those in the outer court or the rabbinic court of the gentiles. Now I do not what to get too far head, so before we move on to the amplication of this to the Heavenly Temple and what remains of the value of the Temple as a symbol of that, is there any objection to this view of what happened to the temple at the time of The Sacrifice?
And who are we? Do we not have access into the holiest place now now?
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RE: What's wrong with Messianic Judaism? - 11/1/2009 3:57:50 PM
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Corne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
Being dead to the previous covenant as a widow would be dead to a marriage is an impression given by the NT.
Could you cite specifically where you are referring to?
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Rawr, I think Corne is referring to Romans 7.
And Hebrews 8. (not an exhaustive list).
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RE: What's wrong with Messianic Judaism? - 11/2/2009 3:54:26 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I do not see how asking which veil is redundant. No one has yet stated where this veil is in the temple so we can properly look at any analogy which might follow. I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page and take this one step at a time to avoid confusion. Well, I will take the next step in the hopes that we agree on which veil was rent. The veil seperated the Holy of Holies from the Holy place. The doors of the Temple (or veils in the tabernacle) still remained. Therefore, all of the priest had access to the Holy of Holies, not those in the outer court or the rabbinic court of the gentiles. Now I do not what to get too far head, so before we move on to the amplication of this to the Heavenly Temple and what remains of the value of the Temple as a symbol of that, is there any objection to this view of what happened to the temple at the time of The Sacrifice?
And who are we? Do we not have access into the holiest place now now?
Slow down. I did not say anything one way or the other with regard to how this applies to us today. Now, before we move on, did I or did I not present the events of that day accurately?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: What's wrong with Messianic Judaism? - 11/2/2009 4:17:13 PM
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Corne
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You actually just presented a bit of preliminary commentary on it. What's accurate is to say it was rent, and when.
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RE: What's wrong with Messianic Judaism? - 11/2/2009 7:29:29 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
You actually just presented a bit of preliminary commentary on it. What's accurate is to say it was rent, and when.
That's why I began by asking which veil. OK, one was too little and the other was too much. Hopefully, this will be just right. By It you mean the curtain between the Holy place and the Holy of Holies, correct?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: What's wrong with Messianic Judaism? - 11/2/2009 8:00:43 PM
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Corne
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Why the question? How many veils were rent at that time?
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RE: What's wrong with Messianic Judaism? - 11/3/2009 3:01:11 AM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
Why the question? How many veils were rent at that time?
Come on, just answer the question already. It is implied that messianics do not have a proper understanding of the significance of the rending of the veil, then there is a reluctance to examine what that significance is. If I can not get an answer to the question of which veil was rent, then the point is mute and I would appreciate it if this red herring were not raised again.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/3/2009 3:12:23 AM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: What's wrong with Messianic Judaism? - 11/3/2009 4:01:13 AM
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Corne
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I asked a question in post 245 that you have not answered yet. The question is an important one. It is not a red herring. You have not addressed it.
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RE: What's wrong with Messianic Judaism? - 11/3/2009 4:14:30 AM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
I asked a question in post 245 that you have not answered yet. The question is an important one. It is not a red herring. You have not addressed it.
I am attempting to answer that question. Ok, let's start at the end and work our way backwards. The veil was rent because Adonai Yeshua, our High Priest, occupies the Holy of Holies perpetually and not just once a year, with the blood of a symbolic sacrifice. Now, this does not minimize the significance of the Temple, the sacrifices or any of the other commandments. On the contrary, it enhances there symbolic value. I can go on, but I am sure you already have something to say.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: What's wrong with Messianic Judaism? - 11/3/2009 4:24:59 AM
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Corne
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So you see the veil beng rent to give Jesus access and the temple door are closed to outsiders (your post 252)so this change in the temple means Jesus in, others out? So who does have access to the holy of holies?
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RE: What's wrong with Messianic Judaism? - 11/3/2009 9:39:23 AM
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ChainSaw
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quote:
The veil was rent because Adonai Yeshua, our High Priest, occupies the Holy of Holies perpetually and not just once a year, with the blood of a symbolic sacrifice. Now, this does not minimize the significance of the Temple, the sacrifices or any of the other commandments.
How can you possibly say what Christ did does not minimize the significance of the Temple and the sacrifices or any of the other commandments? That's just plain foolishness. But this is the kind of thought you see in MJ. This determination to keep eveything old covenant intact, even in the face of overwhelming new truth.
It's amazing to me the shade of glasses one has to put on to see how MJ says the NT tells them nothing has changed--business as usual. That is a joke. This is something terribly, terribly wrong with MJ. When MJ can't bring itself to acknowledge plain change brought to us with the appearing of Christ, and openly spoken about in scriputure, that's a problem. Right behind that is the error of making the details of your formal worship the most important thing that a christian can do for God.
A very telling discussion about 'correct' worship for our day popped up between Jesus and the Samaritan woman. Her argument sounded a lot like what's going on now--this argument over whether orthodox Jewish belief is actually the correct way how to worship:
John 4 (emphasis mine)
19"Sir," the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. 20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."
21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."
The point being, Jesus is contrasting true, spiritual worship with the actual mechanics of orthodox, lawful Jewish worship ("neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem"). That's a change. That's a big, big change that must make every die hard orthodox Jew temble with anger. Remember Jesus is saying this while the Temple is still very much present and in use, yet he says this time of true worship, in neither Samaria nor Jerusalem, has "now come". How does the true worship that occurs outside of both Samaira and Jerusalem (not in conjunction with Jerusalem) not qualify as a minimization of the old system?
There is no way that what Jesus says here does not minimize the Temple and the sacrifices. A person has to deceive themselves to make it say otherwise. But you see lots of interpretations of scripture in MJ that rely on preserving the predetermined conviction of continued worship law observance (for God never changes) in order to see a defense of the continuation of historic Judaism in the New Covenant. God himself may not change, but he does in fact change what he does.
And of course there are the things Paul said about the old Mosaic system being a picture and illustration of better things. How can this not be understood as a lessening of the significance of the Mosaic system of worship? When does a shadow not lose it's significance when the person or thing casting that shadow can now be seen? Do you continue to look at the shadow?
Remember, this has nothing to do with what you can or can't/ should or shouldn't do in regard to the stipulations of the old laws of worship.
< Message edited by ChainSaw -- 11/3/2009 9:48:38 AM >
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RE: What's wrong with Messianic Judaism? - 11/3/2009 9:59:23 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
On the contrary, it enhances there symbolic value.
Symbolic value?
Why a symbolic value why, when we have the real deal as we are the Temples of the Holy Spirit.
The tearing of the vail did not put Jesus on the Mercy Seat, it released the Holy Spirit to inhabit each of us who Believe in Jesus Christ.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: What's wrong with Messianic Judaism? - 11/3/2009 10:37:38 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2931
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
So you see the veil beng rent to give Jesus access and the temple door are closed to outsiders (your post 252)so this change in the temple means Jesus in, others out? So who does have access to the holy of holies?
This is exactly why I wanted to take things one step at a time. I was sure that you were going to go running off to conclusions that are not not at all implied in what I said. Now, do you or do you not acknowledge that it was the veil between the Holy place and the Holy of Holies that was rent? We can deal with the myriad of speculative interpritations, after we have established the fact from which to speculate.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: What's wrong with Messianic Judaism? - 11/3/2009 12:02:22 PM
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Corne
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I'm frustrated with you asking over and over which veil.
Now if you look at my last post, it wasn't full of assumptions, it had questions. I am trying to figure out exactly what you believe but you just won't spell it out. Perhaps at some point another messianic would be willing to address it.
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RE: What's wrong with Messianic Judaism? - 11/3/2009 12:46:29 PM
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ChainSaw
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quote:
...we have the real deal as we are the Temples of the Holy Spirit.
The tearing of the vail did not put Jesus on the Mercy Seat, it released the Holy Spirit to inhabit each of us who Believe in Jesus Christ.
Amen.
Everything that used to happen in the literal earthly Temple now happens right inside the bodies of God's people--the new Temple and appointed place where God comes down to meet man, and right on schedule according to the appointed time that has come in the appearing of Christ.
That's how I get edified--reading, learning, and studying about the old Mosaic procedures and requirements and translating them into the spiritual reality that has, and is, occurring directly within me.
Because of Jesus, every believer is Temple, Priesthood, and sacrifice. We can learn and appreciate so much about what that means by knowing how the people of God once did that in a literal place outside of themselves. The indwelling Holy Spirit fulfills the worship requirements of the Mosaic law (for those who believe), and thus averts the death penalty for not doing that as required. Believing is the 'work' of God we are to do to live...
John 6:
27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."
28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
< Message edited by ChainSaw -- 11/3/2009 12:59:39 PM >
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RE: What's wrong with Messianic Judaism? - 11/3/2009 3:52:12 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
On the contrary, it enhances there symbolic value.
Symbolic value?
Why a symbolic value why, when we have the real deal as we are the Temples of the Holy Spirit.
That is the only value the sacrifices had. Yes, us being the Temple of Adonai's Spirit is another application of the symbolism of The Temple. However, if we can not first look at the details of The Temple, we can not determine how those details are properly determined. Otherwise anything one says in this regard is no ore than dogma.
quote:
The tearing of the vail did not put Jesus on the Mercy Seat, it released the Holy Spirit to inhabit each of us who Believe in Jesus Christ.
That is one interpretation of the rending of the veil. This is getting us a bit off topic, so I have start a thread on this subject in the bible folder. There we can test wether messianics view the rending of the temple in a way that is wrong to the extent that they would be singled out for accusation.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: What's wrong with Messianic Judaism? - 11/3/2009 4:06:11 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2931
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
I'm frustrated with you asking over and over which veil.
Now if you look at my last post, it wasn't full of assumptions, it had questions. I am trying to figure out exactly what you believe but you just won't spell it out. Perhaps at some point another messianic would be willing to address it.
Sorry, I don't live up to your expectations. I am trying to determine what the Scriptures reveal in regard to the veil, so I can determine if what the messianics may believe is significantly different from that. I have created a new thread on the issue if the veil so it can be examined seperately and we can move on in this thread.
I must say i am greatly distressed that the OP chose to word the title of this thread as "What's wrong with . . ." If this were any other group would this not be seen as contentious? Many seem to have seen those words as the most important words in the title, even the all you need is love christians.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/3/2009 4:12:29 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: What's wrong with Messianic Judaism? - 11/3/2009 4:19:57 PM
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Corne
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Actually the OP is saying he/she DOESN'T see anything wrong with some being MJ. Neither do I. I think is serves and important purpose, (there are still unbelieving Jews to be reached) aside from the freedom to be MJ.
I also think the doctrines are fair game for dissecting.
Bottom line, you were playing cat and mouse with the veil question. You. would. not. just. spell. out. your. own. beliefs.
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RE: What's wrong with Messianic Judaism? - 11/3/2009 4:40:24 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2931
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
Actually the OP is saying he/she DOESN'T see anything wrong with some being MJ. Neither do I. I think is serves and important purpose, (there are still unbelieving Jews to be reached) aside from the freedom to be MJ.
I also think the doctrines are fair game for dissecting.
Bottom line, you were playing cat and mouse with the veil question. You. would. not. just. spell. out. your. own. beliefs.
I take my subscript seriously. Therefore, I do not willy nilly spill my guts without providing justification for what I believe. I also value the Scriptures much more highly than my own beliefs. Therefore, I think it is more profitable to examine what the Scriptures reveal in a reasonable manner, than attempt to indoctrinate others with what I may believe at any given time.
This is what I see is wrong with many evanglicals. They seem to be latch on to doctrines and shout them from the mountain tops while showing reluctance to rationally compare those beliefs to what the Scriptures actually say.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: What's wrong with Messianic Judaism? - 11/3/2009 6:33:12 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6747
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
On the contrary, it enhances there symbolic value.
Symbolic value?
Why a symbolic value why, when we have the real deal as we are the Temples of the Holy Spirit.
That is the only value the sacrifices had. Yes, us being the Temple of Adonai's Spirit is another application of the symbolism of The Temple. However, if we can not first look at the details of The Temple, we can not determine how those details are properly determined. Otherwise anything one says in this regard is no ore than dogma.
Sure seems like you consistantly try to elevate the Temple and its symbolism above the Sacrifice of Jesus, and that we are the living Temples of the Holy Spirit. Or maybe you do not believe that we are the Temples of the Holy Spirit?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: What's wrong with Messianic Judaism? - 11/3/2009 6:40:10 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6747
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
This is what I see is wrong with many evanglicals. They seem to be latch on to doctrines and shout them from the mountain tops while showing reluctance to rationally compare those beliefs to what the Scriptures actually say.
What the relevant Scrptures say, you keep seeming to forget this verse;
(Heb 8:13) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
The old covenant, the long gone Temple, etc. are all passe', as we are under a New Covenant with an everlasting Priest.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 11/3/2009 6:47:35 PM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: What's wrong with Messianic Judaism? - 11/4/2009 3:32:55 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2931
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Sure seems like you consistantly try to elevate the Temple and its symbolism above the Sacrifice of Jesus, and that we are the living Temples of the Holy Spirit. Or maybe you do not believe that we are the Temples of the Holy Spirit?
Thanks
RC
I am not elevating the Temple above the Sacrifice. Is it blasphemy to examine what the Scriptures say regarding the Temple. I did acknowledge that we are refered to as the Temple of Adonai's Spirit. For someone who insists on symbolism, hyperboly, double meaning and such in the Scriptures when speaking to those who read them too literally, you seem to be rather quick to denigh those options to others.
quote:
What the relevant Scrptures say, you keep seeming to forget this verse;
(Heb 8:13) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
The old covenant, the long gone Temple, etc. are all passe', as we are under a New Covenant with an everlasting Priest.
Emphasis Mine or I should say the manuscript's
And you forget that the word covenant is not in the manuscripts, but was added by the translators. Now, the discussion of the veil and the temple have been moved to another thread, so you need not be bothered with them any longer in this thread. However, it seems one would have difficulty fully understanding what a priest is without the passages that refer to them. If you believe they are passe', are you saying they should be removed from the Scriptures?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/4/2009 3:44:40 AM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: What's wrong with Messianic Judaism? - 11/4/2009 9:00:49 AM
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ta_mosquito
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Since this thread, in the last few pages, has boiled down to a discussion on which laws are to be kept (if any), whether there's a new covenant, etc., I'm closing and redirecting you to the one-stop for that topic.
CLICK HERE to go to it.
Thanks!
Tricia
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