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the standard of the law of Moses - 10/1/2009 12:44:00 AM
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PROPHETSONG
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Lately I have jumping into the Law of Moses, and it really opened ny eyes to alot of things, especially in the way I view the laws of my nation the USA.
The law of Moses is Just and right without flaw. It can be no other way, because it was handed down by God, and in the Lord there is no fault at all. In addition to this Jesus said that all the scriptures testify of Jesus, this would included all the Law, which is what the Jews call the Torah. So in effect the Torah is the Jesus's standard of right and wrong.
The Law is severly distorted if we look at it in terms of just rules and regulations. The foundation of the Law is rooted in the love of God. We all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God, and because of it all men had nothing but, death coming to them, because of sin. The law strongly exposes the sin of man, and the right judgement of God towards sin.
However does not stop there it also give the way to be free from the penalty of sin, the purification through the blood of messiah. The sacrifial system in the law pointed to the comming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the work of the Cross. None of the animal sacrifices in the Torah removed sin, no one was ever saved through the sacrifice of sheep and oxen year after year, the writer of the book of Hebrews pointed it out clearly.
Jesus is the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world. The only things that existed before the foundation of the world were in eternity. This takes the work of the Cross out of temporal time, and place it in the realm of eternity. Eternal things are never changing. They are the same yesterday today and forever.
The way of salvation has always been by faith in the atoning work of the Messiah, who Christians know to be Jesus Christ. For the Record Christ is not Jesus's family name it is his office before God. The word Christ is the greek equivilent to the Hebrew word Messiah, and means the anointed one.
The Message of the Law is that God's standard for life was beyond man's ability to reach on his own, and becuase of this all men were sentenced to death, but God in his mercy would send hid anointed one to come live perfect before God and lay down his life for all, and in so doing would justify all who would have faith in him. If the Jews of the Old testement believed this they would be saved through faith in what messiah was about to do. The only salvation gained under the Law was based in faith in Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever if you understand this, then you have the key understanding all of the old testament. The Law is actually the Gospel of the coming Messiah.
One of the biggest fallacies in modern day teaching is an idea that the God of the old testament and the Jesus Christ act differently, because of the Cross of Jesus Christ. This is not true at all. God is eternal and his nature is never changes. Jesus in the new testament is the same person as the God of the old testament.
The Cross transforms the believer, so that he may have fellowship with God, but it does not change God. If you are covered by his blood you are reciever the mercy of Jesus. However if you have not accepted the work of the Cross you are facing the wrath of Jehova as declared under the law, there is no third option.
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JER 1: 18 Today I have made you a fortified city, an iron pillar and a bronze wall to stand against the whole land--against the kings of Judah, its officials, its priests and the people of the land. WWW.PROPHETSONG.MYSITE.COM
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/1/2009 1:29:11 AM
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Bluethread
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Is there a question or specific assertion that is being presented for discussion here. Remember, this is a forum and not a blog. A question mark somewhere in the post would provide some clue.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/1/2009 12:20:09 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5729
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Is there a question or specific assertion that is being presented for discussion here. Remember, this is a forum and not a blog. A question mark somewhere in the post would provide some clue.
LOL.................agreed.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/2/2009 10:33:50 AM
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agapist
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Back in high school I loved football, every facet of it: workouts, snow, being hit, hitting, whatever. Any invitations to drink or smoke were turned down without a second thought and no regret. Missing out on other things for practices did not bother me in the least. Each game I gave my all not to beat the other team but for the exhilaration of play; winning was secondary, if even that. The coach never had to get on me for anything.
There were twenty rules posted on the wall in the locker room we were to memorize and strictly follow. I never bothered even to read them. It was in senior year, clearing out my locker, that I took the time to look at them. I had not broken one of those standards, in spirit or otherwise, in four years. How was that possible without knowing those standards?
Love, love of the game.
I did not lovingly follow those rules; I did not even need them. No standards could have improved my play; that was in my heart.
Love, and forget about the rest.
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/2/2009 10:41:18 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Love, and forget about the rest. When we truly love, we will never forget about the rest. 
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/2/2009 1:39:10 PM
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agapist
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drmark, nice surface analysis, but you miss the point. If you put it in context, follow what I said prior to the famous quote, you would understand the spirit of it. Some things need a little meditation before you comment.
"God is love, and the person that dwells in love, dwells in God and God in that person." What does God overlook or forget (besides ours sins when we sincerely confess)?
Notice I did not have to remember the 20 twenty rules because my heart was fully dedicated to what I was doing. I could forget about the rest (the rules) because of my love for the game. With the love, there was no need for the rules; they were perfectly followed without giving them a single thought (forgotten).
It is easy to be critical, one of the easiest things in the world to do.
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/2/2009 3:45:12 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
drmark, nice surface analysis, . . .
It is easy to be critical, one of the easiest things in the world to do.
I recall reading something about a pot and a kettle. It is easy to be critical isn't it? Which reminds me of something someone said about a two edged sword also. Pointing out that one should know how to love without being told is also criticism.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/2/2009 3:52:01 PM
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Lapidoth
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LOL.........when we were kids we had sword drills,
and when we grow up we learn to have sword fights.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/2/2009 4:01:53 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
LOL.........when we were kids we had sword drills,
and when we grow up we learn to have sword fights.
One must remember it cuts both ways.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/2/2009 8:17:56 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
drmark, nice surface analysis, but you miss the point. If you put it in context, follow what I said prior to the famous quote, you would understand the spirit of it. Some things need a little meditation before you comment.
"God is love, and the person that dwells in love, dwells in God and God in that person." What does God overlook or forget (besides ours sins when we sincerely confess)?
Notice I did not have to remember the 20 twenty rules because my heart was fully dedicated to what I was doing. I could forget about the rest (the rules) because of my love for the game. With the love, there was no need for the rules; they were perfectly followed without giving them a single thought (forgotten).
It is easy to be critical, one of the easiest things in the world to do.
Good analogy. A few thoughts if you please. I can think of a few ways to apply that. Obviously from a human perspective it was possible to keep all of those rules, right? I assume so even though I don't have the list you saw. But if we are talking about the Mosaic Law or the instructions of the new covenant contained in the gospels and the epistles, I don't think it is possible (with scrupulous rigidity). The individual details do matter but you are right in that God quickly forgives if our heart attitude is right. In that sense, the godly people of the OT "kept the law" in the sense, not that they never violated anything--but when they did, they remedied it quickly with a sacrifice and repentance.
A heart of love would motivate someone to discover all of the details and stick to them. I'm thinking (yes, I suppose rather superficially) that's what Jesus meant when He said the entire law was summed up in the command to love God with all of our hearts. The law's purpose was to lead us to repentance and to discover our own rebellion and failure, then to seek repentance and restoration repeatedly.
I'm not telling anyone anything they haven't already figured out for themselves. Forgive me if I seem to be preaching and rambling. I'm trying to reflect out loud for the purposes of the discussion.
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/2/2009 8:47:33 PM
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justpassinby
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quote:
Jesus is the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world. The only things that existed before the foundation of the world were in eternity. This takes the work of the Cross out of temporal time, and place it in the realm of eternity. Eternal things are never changing. They are the same yesterday today and forever.
I enjoyed this thought, and am glad someone can see that concept regarding eternity being out of time. Therefore, things don't change, and the Law of God is very much in effect yet, ie. as the standards of righteousness. What has changed is the covenant by which man relates to God, first by the Law of works, and the latter by grace in faith. And eternity touched time so that the event here on this earth of Jesus dying for the sins of the world made it an event in time. Additionally, if we understand Paul's writings, in that sense grace antedated the Law because of the faith of Abraham coming first. In short, the Law is the mirror showing us what we are.
The Law contained profound prophecy and shadows of things to come fulfilled in Christ. In the more practical examples, the Law teaches us to live properly by showing the standards of righteousness. An excellent example is dietary Laws. There are many things that the medical establishment wants us to ban from our diets such as salt, meat, eggs and so forth because they are "unhealthy". However, I never am in any confusion about such matters. I just consult God's Law and find that these foods are kosher and as such are not health hazards (although in fairness, that includes how they are prepared as well). I get flack for believing such stuff, even from some Christians (even in the health forums here), for not being more Gentile. But God's Law says it all.
_____________________________
Link to Genealogy of Christ
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/2/2009 9:04:18 PM
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agapist
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Bluethread, perhaps you are right. It happens so frequently I should just laugh it off. But now what are we to do about you?
You are critical of me for pointing out drmark's 'surface analysis" of what I wrote, what you perceive of as my being critical of him.
Are you also nicked by that blade? Did you forget it cuts both ways? Or does this make it three ways?
I'm just playing. I was wrong. A week of attack has me too edgy.
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/2/2009 9:14:11 PM
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drmark
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quote:
A week of attack has me too edgy. Perhaps you may wish to reconsider the definition of "attack"...
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/2/2009 10:03:23 PM
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agapist
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Grahamcracker, the analogy was an attempt to demonstrate just how complete love is, as I see it.
To say we follow the law lovingly is a misnomer; love is the fullness of the law and far more: how could it follow itself?
Love is perfect righteousness and justice, mercy and compassion, power and strength. It lacks nothing of God.
There is a time in coming to know this love of God that following the standards are useful, yet they are but one expression of love. Love is the whole enchilida.
This is how I see it, Love is ALL THE DETAILS--nothing is left out. To me, sticking to the details misses the mark of the whole. It is similar to completing the construction of a building and saying now I am going to disassemble it to study the wiring and plumbing.
What the law is pointing to is the perfection of God. And what is God? God is love.
We study, and the word--Christ and the Holy Spirit--works on us, steadily deepening our love. Love is the whole of truth and the purpose of Truth.
When Paul said, "...put away childish things" I believe he was talking about the dependency on sticking to the details of the law, as children come to see that all the rules were put in place out of love, and if they love their parents then the rules become superfluous because they have the spirit of them in their heart.
Like the football analogy. Those that had to keep the rules in mind did not have a total love of the game, as I did. Sometimes they would be tempted to break a rule or might wonder if some action was technically breaking the law because the spirit was not full in them.
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/2/2009 10:52:41 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
Like the football analogy. Those that had to keep the rules in mind did not have a total love of the game, as I did. Sometimes they would be tempted to break a rule or might wonder if some action was technically breaking the law because the spirit was not full in them.
Did you follow the same principle on the field and how many penalties did you draw?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/3/2009 1:22:10 AM
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agapist
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Bluethread, i do not want to be in opposition. I am simply explaining how I see it.
Love is respectful, it is clean. Cheap shots--penalties--comes out of a desire to win or pride. It is a loss of perspective on what is truly important. There are no comparisons to make with love, there is no end in sight.
As I stated, winning was a result, not a goal.
There were no principles to follow, that is the point; love led.
The joy of the moment (not obedience), of being at-one with what I was doing ruled my actions. It was not a joy I hungered to fulfill by some standard of excellence; it was a simple joy of expression, of my heart, mind, soul, and strength being fully committed.
Always I gave thanks to the lord, for every physical asset, the perseverance, and the enthusiasm ( en-theos: with God). I did not understand when my peers complimented me on my performance, such as breaking two city records in one season: who was going to recognize I am nothing without God?
I keep pushing the totality of love because anything short of that misses the mark. It is good, but it is not best. Good can be enemy of the best.
If my love of neighbor is true, I have no need of a law that says I should not lie to him; such a thought would never enter my head. And Reason does not dictate how I relate to people; it plays no part on it. Nor conscience. Spirit, it is all about spirit. Love is being of one spirit with God.
With love, His power and presence is there.
Christ soes not abide by standards; Christ is the standard-bearer. We are to be hidden in Christ. We are to live and move and have our being in Christ. That is the mark.
If I fall short of love, if I am not of one spirit with God, such standards are vital.
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/3/2009 2:11:46 AM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
Bluethread, i do not want to be in opposition. I am simply explaining how I see it.
Love is respectful, it is clean. Cheap shots--penalties--comes out of a desire to win or pride. It is a loss of perspective on what is truly important. There are no comparisons to make with love, there is no end in sight.
I was just following you object lesson. Did you study and practice according to the rules of the game or did you just let the Spirit lead?
quote:
As I stated, winning was a result, not a goal.
There were no principles to follow, that is the point; love led.
The joy of the moment (not obedience), of being at-one with what I was doing ruled my actions. It was not a joy I hungered to fulfill by some standard of excellence; it was a simple joy of expression, of my heart, mind, soul, and strength being fully committed.
I said nothing about winning, nor did I asked if you enjoyed playing or not. I was just asking if this, "I could forget about the rest (the rules) because of my love for the game. With the love, there was no need for the rules; they were perfectly followed without giving them a single thought (forgotten)." extended beyond the locker room onto the playing field. You said you did not even look at the locker room rules, you had just naturally kept them without even looking. Did you play the game that way, or did you need to practice playing the game throughout the week until the rules became natural?
quote:
Always I gave thanks to the lord, for every physical asset, the perseverance, and the enthusiasm ( en-theos: with God). I did not understand when my peers complimented me on my performance, such as breaking two city records in one season: who was going to recognize I am nothing without God?
I keep pushing the totality of love because anything short of that misses the mark. It is good, but it is not best. Good can be enemy of the best.
Yes, that is why we practice and watch how others have played.
quote:
If my love of neighbor is true, I have no need of a law that says I should not lie to him; such a thought would never enter my head. And Reason does not dictate how I relate to people; it plays no part on it. Nor conscience. Spirit, it is all about spirit. Love is being of one spirit with God.
With love, His power and presence is there.
Christ soes not abide by standards; Christ is the standard-bearer. We are to be hidden in Christ. We are to live and move and have our being in Christ. That is the mark.
I get that. However, it is not like Luke Skywalker and the force. Did you follow the plays or did you just use the force to break those records. I understand "the zone". My son was a State Champion wrestler, 4 yr letterman, captian of the football team and All-State second team runningback/linebacker. Second team only because the defensive line gave out from exhaustion in the final minute of the fourth quarter in the State championship game. It is only through hard training and repeated practice that one can enter "the zone". Not that one does this alone. It is not just faith, but faithfulness that builds character. Yes, there is more to "the game", if you will allow that expression, than some sudden influx of knowledge, ability and drive from outside oneself. It is a cooperative effort. It is examining and practicing Adonai's ways as Adonai's Spirit reveals their proper application in life.
quote:
If I fall short of love, if I am not of one spirit with God, such standards are vital.
Love is cooperation and to become one spirit with someone, one has to spend time with them observing their ways and practicing them.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/3/2009 2:18:51 AM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/3/2009 8:12:27 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Love is cooperation and to become one spirit with someone, one has to spend time with them observing their ways and practicing them. Amen, Bt! God does not love for us - His Love works in, through, and with us.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/3/2009 1:38:35 PM
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agapist
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Bluethread, does your sarcastic remark about "the force" and the condescending lecture that came with it qualify as being brotherly love or something else?
Everything you asked was answered in my previous posts. If you cannot see the answers there, nothing I will say here will help. The principles of interpreting my remarks that you are using will never uncover the spirit of what I am saying.
One more comment: you asked, "Did you follow the same principle on the field?" That question says to me you entirely missed what I was saying, which is why I responded in the lengthy fashion that I did. Love is not a principle we follow. Love consumes; it is a state of being. Love covers every scenario. Love informs on every aspect associated with a situation or, in this case, game, not the other way around. The rules of the game, practice, the nature of play, cooperating with and coming to know others, off-the-field behavior is understood in the spirit, the gestalt of love, which goes far deeper than the sum of all the parts and brings everything together.
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/3/2009 7:43:11 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
Love is perfect righteousness and justice, mercy and compassion, power and strength. It lacks nothing of God.
There is a time in coming to know this love of God that following the standards are useful, yet they are but one expression of love. Love is the whole enchilida.
quote:
As I stated, winning was a result, not a goal.
There were no principles to follow, that is the point; love led.
The joy of the moment (not obedience), of being at-one with what I was doing ruled my actions. It was not a joy I hungered to fulfill by some standard of excellence; it was a simple joy of expression, of my heart, mind, soul, and strength being fully committed.
With all due respect, come on! People who are committed to winning don't really love the game? Are you serious? People who spend their lives and money on football who become deeply frustrated when they lose--they don't love the game? Frankly, that doesn't make sense to me.
Chances are that you were able to keep the rules, not simply because you loved the game but because you already had integrity. I don't think you would have given up your integrity if you didn't like some of the rules. You would have quit. Love of the game is a motivation but it is not all principle all by itself.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/3/2009 8:48:09 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
Bluethread, does your sarcastic remark about "the force" and the condescending lecture that came with it qualify as being brotherly love or something else?
George Lucas' "force" is exemplary of the dualistic spiritual view that is common to many beliefs. There are many facets to this concept. One of those facets is the setting aside of the rational and physical to give primacy to the spiritual. That is why I used that analogy. It was not my intent to talk down to you, but respond to the assertion as it was presented. Your presentation of your achievements only to minimize their significance appears to me to be false humility. If they were not meant to add credibility to your argument, they would not have been brought up. Therefore, to assure you I understood this "love of the game" concept, I noted my families experience with it. Yes, it appears to the participant that every thing is just falling into place and ones actions are simply being directed by some higher power. However, much of this is involuntary reactions and intense focusing that comes from repeated practice. I am not discounting the influence of Adonai's Spirit in the course of events, but one's ability to recognize opportunities Adonai puts in our way and take hold of them comes as much from studying and repeatedly practicing Adonai's ways as it does from momentary inspiration.
quote:
Everything you asked was answered in my previous posts. If you cannot see the answers there, nothing I will say here will help. The principles of interpreting my remarks that you are using will never uncover the spirit of what I am saying.
Your propensity to take things personally and view those who do not agree with you as somehow lacking spiritual insight makes discussions beyond the merely superficial rather difficult. It is usually not required of the listener to uncover "the spirit" of what the speaker is saying. It is usually the responsibility of the speaker to state things in a way that they will be more easily understood, unless the speaker really does not wish to be understood. This is why Yeshua spoke in parables so that only those in the crowd who were of like minds would understand. If you are talking to those who are observing, that is fine. However, if we are having a one on one discussion of this matter, I beleive, it would be best if we tried our best to speak in plain language.
quote:
One more comment: you asked, "Did you follow the same principle on the field?" That question says to me you entirely missed what I was saying, which is why I responded in the lengthy fashion that I did. Love is not a principle we follow. Love consumes; it is a state of being. Love covers every scenario. Love informs on every aspect associated with a situation or, in this case, game, not the other way around. The rules of the game, practice, the nature of play, cooperating with and coming to know others, off-the-field behavior is understood in the spirit, the gestalt of love, which goes far deeper than the sum of all the parts and brings everything together.
This why I used "the force" as an illistration. Gestalt may be defined as the totality of something. However, it has been redifined by the existential movement to discount all but the present experience, claiming that the totality of something can be experienced a single event. This, in my veiw, is not the position of the Scriptures. The Scriptures incorporate all of Adonai's revelation as not only the totality of life or the essence of The Promise, but at the same time the view that each and every event as significant in His sight. Therefore, love is not just an existential experience, but the application of one's understanding of Adonai's ways to specific situations in ways that can be clearly communicated.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/3/2009 8:59:35 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: the standarjavascript:checkqrp('4564977','RE:%20the... - 10/4/2009 8:40:15 AM
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drmark
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Well, agapist, that's five of us now from three different threads who have serious concerns with your "existential" attitude toward love. Perhaps you need to follow your own advice from above - "Some things need a little meditation before you comment."
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: the standarjavascript:checkqrp('4564977','RE:%20the... - 10/4/2009 1:29:17 PM
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Prophetictime
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Acts 13:38-39
38 Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man Jesus forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, 39 and through him every one that believes is free from everything from which you could not be free by the law of Moses.
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In the end only kindness matters. Praise to Jesus Christ in the Highest.
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RE: the standarjavascript:checkqrp('4564977','RE:%20the... - 10/4/2009 5:13:17 PM
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agapist
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
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First grahamcracker, about winning I said it was a result not the goal. I never said anywhere that winning was wrong, wanting to win was wrong or lacking in love. Where did you read that?
Yes, love is whole principle by itself.
Bluethread, I will take it that the reference to the force was not what it appeared because you say so.
I do object to you questioning my integrity on the mention of my achievements. That your logic tells you it is was a self-serving contrivance does not make it so and to trust that logic over of a brother is not a demonstration of that brotherly love you say I lack.
I am not talking about being "in the zone"; no matter how many people you ask about something I am not talking about will give you no answers on what I am saying.
It is not "momentary inspiration" as you describe it, but what I described: a state of being.
You use the parables as a way of speaking "the spirit" clearly? And then you contradict that by saying only those who were liked-minded (which it appears you and I are not) could understand. That makes no sense. Was it Jesus' responsibility to speak it plainly so all could understand?
There are a number of people who understand and agree with what I have been saying on love. Who is not seeing clearly?
The problem you inserted into my use of the "gestalt" happens frequently in this forum by those who are always looking to package what somebody says under a label. The word is mentioned in existentialism so now I am an existententialist?
drmark, name the five and the threads, please. The nature of the objections would be nice as well. I'm sorry; I had to stop to laugh. Now because bluethread has attached a word I used to existentialism, I have an existential view of love?
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