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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/4/2009 5:42:34 PM
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agapist
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By the way everyone, football was just meant as an example and not the subject. My first post was just an aside on how the love of this game (it could be anything, like God or a neighbor) made it unnecessary for me to read "the rules" of behavior (not of the game), such as curfew, miss practice only with an excuse, no drinking and so forth. I did not think it would turn into this big deal.
Rules of the game come in a handbook; they are not on the wall of the locker room.
[edited by moderator to fix thread title]
< Message edited by ta_mosquito -- 10/5/2009 8:59:00 AM >
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/4/2009 6:10:15 PM
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dbark
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quote:
The law of Moses is Just and right without flaw. It can be no other way, because it was handed down by God, and in the Lord there is no fault at all. In addition to this Jesus said that all the scriptures testify of Jesus, this would included all the Law, which is what the Jews call the Torah. So in effect the Torah is the Jesus's standard of right and wrong.
If the law of Moses is without flaw, why did Jesus tell us that we are no longer under the law but under grace? Why would a perfect law needed to be improved upon?
What made the law imperfect was the fact that it was needed at all. Once grace entered the picture (or at least once it was revealed to us), the law was made superfluous because we now understand - or should understand - that grace and love are the higher standard or higher calling.
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness." Matthew 23:25-28
Jesus is saying that following the law gives you the appearance of beauty and goodness, but only love can change you.
I think what agapist is saying is that following the law is the old covenant ... and that love and grace are the new covenant and the new covenant is vastly better in every way. Following the new covenant, being filled with love means that the inside of your cup is clean ... which Jesus says automatically leads to the outside being clean as well - a clean outside is all the law could ever manage.
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"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/4/2009 6:18:22 PM
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drmark
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quote:
drmark, name the five and the threads, please. The nature of the objections would be nice as well. I'm sorry; I had to stop to laugh. Now because bluethread has attached a word I used to existentialism, I have an existential view of love? I have no idea what your "view of love" is, agapist. Frankly, you've done a rather poor job of explaining your views, at least to me. So, I'm going back to the OP for any who wish to discuss it.
[Edited by moderator to fix thread title]
< Message edited by ta_mosquito -- 10/5/2009 8:59:23 AM >
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/4/2009 6:48:58 PM
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agapist
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dbark, very nicely put. Thank you.
drmark, perhaps I have done a poor job of explaining my views on love. I will look to be more precise.
What I was trying to illustrate with my small illustration using the love of football is made perfectly clear in dbark's post above. Here, you are right, drmark; dbark makes a far clearer and stronger case than I.
I know existentialism very well; it was one of my personal studies for about three years, as was humanism, and not because I agreed but so that I could adequately counter those philosophies. I wrote what I feel is an excellent paper arguing against the ridiculous notion of truth being relative (the first being that such a statement as "truth is relative" is an absolute, an immediate contradiction and the second that such a statement makes all values meaningless). I feel my view of love may be quilty of being too spiritual for some but far, far from existential.
Many of the arguments against me on the topic of love were due to people using a worldly understanding as my understanding of love. and some would say there is more to God than love, pointing out His justice and righteousness as separate things; I see them as their source, so these are not separate qualitites but expressions of love, expressions of God.
[Edited by mod to fix thread title]
< Message edited by ta_mosquito -- 10/5/2009 8:59:45 AM >
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/4/2009 7:19:14 PM
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LBolt
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In Matthew 23 the whole chapter, the law or Torah was not in condemnation it was the Pharisees and scribes, those religious leaders who exalted the traditions or man-made laws over and above the Torah that was given by God Almighty Himself to Moses and then to the nation of Israel. YHWH stated in Deut. 5:29, Oh if there was such an heart in them that they would fear me and keep my commandments, that it may be well with them, and with their children forever.
It's always been about the heart of man. When God sought to replace Saul as king, he judged David worthy of such a position because he had a heart that feared the Him. Reading the Psalms, we see why he was a good choice. Torah is a love relationship in which we obey His words based on His love toward us and ours towards Him.
The Bible tells us that God is love and a loving God gave us a beautiful covenant that He desired to be written upon our heart and mind in order that we would fear Him. Every kingdom has to have standards otherwise we would have chaos and confusion. Satan is the ruler of the lawless ones. He is anti Torah and seeks to blind the eyes of people to believe that Torah is useless. It's due to a lack of understanding, it's due to teaching. Jesus redeemed us from the law of sin and death meaning you sin and you deserve to die...physically. To be under the law is to be under the penalty or the death penalty one deserves but for the grace of God we did not get what we deserve. That's my take!
[Edited by mod to fix thread title]
< Message edited by ta_mosquito -- 10/5/2009 9:00:03 AM >
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/5/2009 12:55:33 AM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
drmark, name the five and the threads, please. The nature of the objections would be nice as well. I'm sorry; I had to stop to laugh. Now because bluethread has attached a word I used to existentialism, I have an existential view of love? I have no idea what your "view of love" is, agapist. Frankly, you've done a rather poor job of explaining your views, at least to me. So, I'm going back to the OP for any who wish to discuss it.
Good point, what is the point of the OP? Prophetsong never did clarify. This thread is getting dangerously close to getting rolled into the Torah thread. If prophetsong is saying, "All you need is love, bump a dadadah dah ...", then it would be good if that could be acknowledged. Even if we wish to examine this idea without confirmation, we need to stick to that issue and only address whether one can do that without the "standard of Moses" or one needs such a standard to love properly. I am not a mod, so I can not inforce this. It just appears there is great opportunity to get rather far a field if we do not agree and soon about what the OP is about. Just saying.
[Edited by mod to fix thread title]
< Message edited by ta_mosquito -- 10/5/2009 9:00:37 AM >
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/5/2009 2:09:08 AM
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dbark
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quote:
In Matthew 23 the whole chapter, the law or Torah was not in condemnation it was the Pharisees and scribes, those religious leaders who exalted the traditions or man-made laws over and above the Torah that was given by God Almighty Himself to Moses and then to the nation of Israel.
I agree. The point I was making, however, was that those pharisees believed that the law would make them righteous, whereas Jesus came to destroy that misconception and replace it with an understanding of the new covenant. It seems that sometimes people want to resist that teaching - maybe because there is something comforting about rules and laws ... they are clear and understandable and we sometimes like to think we could deserve God's grace and want to try and earn it somehow.
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/6/2009 11:07:09 AM
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agapist
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The standard of the law of Moses directs us to allow the love of God to rule all our actions and to fully trust in love as the whole purpose of truth.
Love leads all of our actions and perfect righteousness follows naturally.
Love is the author of this standard, as such love's knowledge of what is just and right far exceeds the standard, whose sole purpose is to point to the higher intelligence of love.
Following the standard, if we do so with a sincere heart, gradually reduces the strongholds of self-reliance and self-interest, opening us to greater and greater trust in God. This milk is needed...for awhile.
Because such wondrous changes are manifested through this practice, there is a strong tendency to believe it is the alpha and omega of faith.
In truth, it is simply a good start.
In this practice we still exert a modicum of control, which allows for a sense of certainty and safety; it is sure ground. The next step, however, is not a step at all: it is a leap of faith. It is similar to stepping off a skyscrapper in reality. Control, safety, and certainty are left behind; there is no longer any earthly support. If you will, it is to walk on water.
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/6/2009 8:35:45 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
The standard of the law of Moses directs us to allow the love of God to rule all our actions and to fully trust in love as the whole purpose of truth.
Love leads all of our actions and perfect righteousness follows naturally.
Love is the author of this standard, as such love's knowledge of what is just and right far exceeds the standard, whose sole purpose is to point to the higher intelligence of love.
Following the standard, if we do so with a sincere heart, gradually reduces the strongholds of self-reliance and self-interest, opening us to greater and greater trust in God. This milk is needed...for awhile.
Because such wondrous changes are manifested through this practice, there is a strong tendency to believe it is the alpha and omega of faith.
In truth, it is simply a good start.
In this practice we still exert a modicum of control, which allows for a sense of certainty and safety; it is sure ground. The next step, however, is not a step at all: it is a leap of faith. It is similar to stepping off a skyscrapper in reality. Control, safety, and certainty are left behind; there is no longer any earthly support. If you will, it is to walk on water.
You have professed that you are not arguing for an existentialist view of things. However, this, especially the last bit, sounds like it is right out of the mouth of Nietzsche. I do not fault you, if you are an existentialist. What I am concerned about is the apparent desire to avoid speaking in a language that is common to the people you are speaking with, or at least with terms that can be defined such that the listener can be clear on what is meant. But, this avoidance of well defined terms is common among existentials also.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/8/2009 2:14:25 PM
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agapist
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Please tell me how what I said is like that fellow you mentioned. How is it not Scriptural? Total abandonment to God's will is to put ALL of ourselves in His care. He is given control. Our safety is completely in his hands.
I define love scripturally: it takes ALL of our heart, mind, soul, and strength, which is literally like death to the "old man" or ego.
If you have not come to that "jumping off" place, you will not only have no clue to the rest of what I say but will, as you dane thus far, disparage what I have to say.
I have already stated I am not an existentialist. I made that quite clear. Why you keep insisting on putting these labels on me and not taking me at my word is my question.
If you do not understand how I put things, if the terms and phrases are not in the usual jargon of your Church or background, how can you continue to fault me? You are not actually saying I am being unclear; you are saying I am not saying it in a way that you can understand or want to hear.
Those comments I made in that post on love sound like existentialism? How so, and please be specific; I am curious.
BTW, The correct person to attribute the "leap of faith" is kierkegaard who unfortunately, best intentions aside, opened the door to our present "truth is relative" philosophy.
But frankly, this adversarial thing you have with me, the casual disrespect and casting suspicions, is puzzling. We may not see eye to eye either because of semantics or definite differences in views, yet running me to the ground with this constant labeling and questioning my honesty is uncalled for.
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/8/2009 5:45:10 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
Please tell me how what I said is like that fellow you mentioned. How is it not Scriptural? Total abandonment to God's will is to put ALL of ourselves in His care. He is given control. Our safety is completely in his hands.
I define love scripturally: it takes ALL of our heart, mind, soul, and strength, which is literally like death to the "old man" or ego.
If you have not come to that "jumping off" place, you will not only have no clue to the rest of what I say but will, as you dane thus far, disparage what I have to say.
I have already stated I am not an existentialist. I made that quite clear. Why you keep insisting on putting these labels on me and not taking me at my word is my question.
If you do not understand how I put things, if the terms and phrases are not in the usual jargon of your Church or background, how can you continue to fault me? You are not actually saying I am being unclear; you are saying I am not saying it in a way that you can understand or want to hear.
Those comments I made in that post on love sound like existentialism? How so, and please be specific; I am curious.
BTW, The correct person to attribute the "leap of faith" is kierkegaard who unfortunately, best intentions aside, opened the door to our present "truth is relative" philosophy.
But frankly, this adversarial thing you have with me, the casual disrespect and casting suspicions, is puzzling. We may not see eye to eye either because of semantics or definite differences in views, yet running me to the ground with this constant labeling and questioning my honesty is uncalled for.
agapist,
I think he is saying that you are reasoning from a philosophical viewpoint that resembles existentialism. If you aren't too familiar with it, you aren't alone. I cannot say that I follow it either. A number of worldly philosophies from years past have worked their ways into our society. I have no idea whether or not existentialism has.
For what it is worth, I dropped out of the thread because I noted that I was prone to misunderstanding you. A few of your phrases took used too many metaphorical turns of phrase for me to follow closely. I am not faulting you, I just try to avoid using so many of them that some people may have trouble following my thoughts. I really hate esoteric conversation too for that matter--not that anyone is doing that here. I have noted a tendency in other threads for some posters to do that.
When you use phrases like "Love is the whole enchilada," I have to ask myself: "What does that mean?" In some conversational contexts, it is clear. But when we are talking about lots of abstract terms and words like "love," I feel it is better to avoid phrases like that. It says a lot coming from the person using the term but may not communicate much at all to the person who hears it. If it is okay with others, fine--I'll accept the limitation as being my own.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 10/8/2009 5:58:21 PM >
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"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/8/2009 6:27:51 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
Those comments I made in that post on love sound like existentialism? How so, and please be specific; I am curious.
BTW, The correct person to attribute the "leap of faith" is kierkegaard who unfortunately, best intentions aside, opened the door to our present "truth is relative" philosophy.
My mistake, Nietzsche followed after kierkegaard and is responsible for much of the relativism that followed. This may have been a misinterpretaion of the ideas propounded by kierkegaard. Therefore, to avoid complicating the discussion with things that might not apply, let's just look at the "leap of faith" idea. This appears to be what leads me to wonder how your views differ from at least the roots of what has been called the death of reason.
quote:
But frankly, this adversarial thing you have with me, the casual disrespect and casting suspicions, is puzzling. We may not see eye to eye either because of semantics or definite differences in views, yet running me to the ground with this constant labeling and questioning my honesty is uncalled for.
I hold no anamosity toward you. Also, I am not attempting to cast suspicions or question your honesty. I am just pointing out things that appear to contradict one another. I have no doubt you believe what you say. Even if you don't, that does not effect the validity of any statement you might make.
If I label things it is only to narrow the scope of the discussion for the purpose of identifying the points at which we differ. I do not believe this is adversarial in the sense of a personal attack, but a critical examination of the ideas presented for the purpose of determining their validity.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/8/2009 6:35:45 PM >
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/8/2009 7:36:33 PM
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Dragonnie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PROPHETSONG
Lately I have jumping into the Law of Moses, and it really opened ny eyes to alot of things, especially in the way I view the laws of my nation the USA.
The law of Moses is Just and right without flaw. It can be no other way, because it was handed down by God, and in the Lord there is no fault at all. In addition to this Jesus said that all the scriptures testify of Jesus, this would included all the Law, which is what the Jews call the Torah. So in effect the Torah is the Jesus's standard of right and wrong.
The Law is severly distorted if we look at it in terms of just rules and regulations. The foundation of the Law is rooted in the love of God. We all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God, and because of it all men had nothing but, death coming to them, because of sin. The law strongly exposes the sin of man, and the right judgement of God towards sin.
However does not stop there it also give the way to be free from the penalty of sin, the purification through the blood of messiah. The sacrifial system in the law pointed to the comming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the work of the Cross. None of the animal sacrifices in the Torah removed sin, no one was ever saved through the sacrifice of sheep and oxen year after year, the writer of the book of Hebrews pointed it out clearly.
Jesus is the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world. The only things that existed before the foundation of the world were in eternity. This takes the work of the Cross out of temporal time, and place it in the realm of eternity. Eternal things are never changing. They are the same yesterday today and forever.
The way of salvation has always been by faith in the atoning work of the Messiah, who Christians know to be Jesus Christ. For the Record Christ is not Jesus's family name it is his office before God. The word Christ is the greek equivilent to the Hebrew word Messiah, and means the anointed one.
The Message of the Law is that God's standard for life was beyond man's ability to reach on his own, and becuase of this all men were sentenced to death, but God in his mercy would send hid anointed one to come live perfect before God and lay down his life for all, and in so doing would justify all who would have faith in him. If the Jews of the Old testement believed this they would be saved through faith in what messiah was about to do. The only salvation gained under the Law was based in faith in Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever if you understand this, then you have the key understanding all of the old testament. The Law is actually the Gospel of the coming Messiah.
One of the biggest fallacies in modern day teaching is an idea that the God of the old testament and the Jesus Christ act differently, because of the Cross of Jesus Christ. This is not true at all. God is eternal and his nature is never changes. Jesus in the new testament is the same person as the God of the old testament.
The Cross transforms the believer, so that he may have fellowship with God, but it does not change God. If you are covered by his blood you are reciever the mercy of Jesus. However if you have not accepted the work of the Cross you are facing the wrath of Jehova as declared under the law, there is no third option.
you are exactly right! hey people, look it up in the bible before you consult your own brain.
start in Genesis and read the books in the order in which G d gave them    ~~~~`i'm posting this in my blog.
< Message edited by Dragonnie -- 10/8/2009 7:42:37 PM >
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/8/2009 7:49:17 PM
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Bluethread
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We are not really discussing Yah or Nah on the OP, since it was posted and no qeustion or issue was presented. We are just making our best guess on what issues might have been intended and going from there.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/8/2009 8:00:10 PM
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agapist
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Gestalt defined: "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts."
All the standards, principles, laws, and ethics found in the Bible are not as great as love. Love is the source of these things, which were given to guide us to a complete trust in and total reliance upon the righteousness of Christ.
Love Scriptually defined: "Giving ALL of our heart, mind, soul, and strength to God, emptying ourselves completely (as Christ did; Ph2:7)." Total abandonment to divine providence. The mind of Christ.
I speak of love only in this sense, for to me that alone is love (as the Bible defines it) and anything less than that is something other than love.
If I truly love my neighbor, the thought of lying, cheating, or stealing does not even occur to me. The standards of Torah are not my guide; they are not needed. If I do not truly love my neighbor at a particular moment or if I am still on milk, the standard is needed.
The existentialist, like Solomon, come to see life as meaningless. This realization is similar to the "dark night of the soul" some Christian saints speak of. Their solution is to create their own meaning; the saint, instead, leaps into this abyss (of emptiness) and trusts God will help them to soar.
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/9/2009 4:19:04 PM
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Bluethread
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Well, it was you who introducted the phrase "leap of faith" to the discussion. Generally when one introduces a well known phrase into a discussion that person is using it to add credibility to one's argument based in how it was used in the past. Here, the phrase is used without qualification and then, only after some prompting, the concepts generally associated with that phrase are dismissed. I hope you can appreciate the confusion the reader might experience when this approach is taken and that that one might enquire regarding the discrepency.
Now, I have been criticized, whether by you I can not recall, for using terms that the reader might not be familiar with. However, I have not been offended when asked to clarify my use of those terms. That is to be expected. Also, I try to take the connotations of a term into account when I use them.
The term gestalt is summarized with the phrase you use. However, it has mostly been used in the psycological and philosophical rhelms with "the whole" not including Adonai. Those who have used this term generally seem to limit gestalt to man as a whole in a behavioral sense. It appears you are attempting to apply this term to the whole of behavior that is acceptable to Adonai and calling that "gestalt" love. The problem I see with that is that when one elevates a term to that level it loses its value as a term that refers to specific actions.
I believe the english language already has too many definitions for the word "love" already. That is why it is very confusing and lacking in clarity when one chooses to use that term to represent the totality of behaviors that are acceptable to Adonai. The Scriptures use more than one term for "love" and often use context to modify those terms. Therefore, if the point of this thread is to determine what is the best standard for living a life that is acceptable to Adonai, the term "love" seems to be a rather inadequate term to use for that purpose.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/9/2009 4:30:57 PM >
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/9/2009 6:35:49 PM
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agapist
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The lack of clarity is understood. Thank you. We see differently.
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/9/2009 7:23:52 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
Back in high school I loved football, every facet of it: workouts, snow, being hit, hitting, whatever. Any invitations to drink or smoke were turned down without a second thought and no regret. Missing out on other things for practices did not bother me in the least. Each game I gave my all not to beat the other team but for the exhilaration of play; winning was secondary, if even that. The coach never had to get on me for anything.
There were twenty rules posted on the wall in the locker room we were to memorize and strictly follow. I never bothered even to read them. It was in senior year, clearing out my locker, that I took the time to look at them. I had not broken one of those standards, in spirit or otherwise, in four years. How was that possible without knowing those standards?
Love, love of the game.
I did not lovingly follow those rules; I did not even need them. No standards could have improved my play; that was in my heart.
Love, and forget about the rest.
I agree, agapist. Your illustration is right on. This is the very reason God came to earth, to show us what Love looks like. It is just so very hard for us to understand. That's why He says "eye has not seen, ear has not heard. and have not entered the heart of man". It is what God has prepared for those who love Him. They are revealed through the Spirit.
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Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/10/2009 1:14:19 AM
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PROPHETSONG
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The Law is perfect the problem was that the charcter of man was flawed, through the Cross we can receive the pecfect character of Christ living with in us. Which is confirmed by the right standard of the Law. The fault was found in man, and the Law made that clear proving that man needed to be saved from the consequence of his own actions, results in death.
If we acknowledge that the Law came from God then we must also acknowledge that it is given out God's own wisdom and understand which is perfect.
This is why the psalmist wrote
Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple.
In this verse the Bible is stating that the Law of God is perfect, and if the law is perfect then the fault must have been with those that could not keep it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: dbark
quote:
The law of Moses is Just and right without flaw. It can be no other way, because it was handed down by God, and in the Lord there is no fault at all. In addition to this Jesus said that all the scriptures testify of Jesus, this would included all the Law, which is what the Jews call the Torah. So in effect the Torah is the Jesus's standard of right and wrong.
If the law of Moses is without flaw, why did Jesus tell us that we are no longer under the law but under grace? Why would a perfect law needed to be improved upon?
What made the law imperfect was the fact that it was needed at all. Once grace entered the picture (or at least once it was revealed to us), the law was made superfluous because we now understand - or should understand - that grace and love are the higher standard or higher calling.
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness." Matthew 23:25-28
Jesus is saying that following the law gives you the appearance of beauty and goodness, but only love can change you.
I think what agapist is saying is that following the law is the old covenant ... and that love and grace are the new covenant and the new covenant is vastly better in every way. Following the new covenant, being filled with love means that the inside of your cup is clean ... which Jesus says automatically leads to the outside being clean as well - a clean outside is all the law could ever manage.
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JER 1: 18 Today I have made you a fortified city, an iron pillar and a bronze wall to stand against the whole land--against the kings of Judah, its officials, its priests and the people of the land. WWW.PROPHETSONG.MYSITE.COM
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/10/2009 7:06:36 PM
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agapist
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
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Autonomous: a) existing or capable of existing independently; b) responding, reacting, or developing independently of the whole; c) undertaken or carried on without outside control.
Once we accept Christ, do we still qualify as autonomous beings?
The Mark: Jn14:20, 15:4-7, 17:26; Rom8:9-10; 1Cor6:17; 2Cor1:21, 5:17, 21; Eph4:13; Col1:27, 3:3; iJn2:24, 4:16.
After reading these, what do you see as our standard in the New Covenant.
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/11/2009 8:43:20 AM
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drmark
Posts: 4636
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: online
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quote:
Once we accept Christ, do we still qualify as autonomous beings? Are you trying to tell us, agapist, that only the lost have free will while the saved are unable to choose their actions?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/11/2009 8:56:13 PM
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agapist
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
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Hoho, drmark, you are too much. I really find it hard to believe that you could not see what I was trying to say. Either your depth perception is decidedly lacking or you just gloss over what I say, overly anxious to contradict me.
Can we exist spiritually--breath, walk, eat, or do anything--independently of God's will?
Is up to us even to direct our own step?
Can we develop spiritually independent of grace and the Holy Spirit?
Is God in control?
Can we resist temptation on our own?
Are we to be other-centered?
The question was meant to evoke a deeper look at our relationship with; you took it by the letter, not the spirit; a literalist interpretation...and I must add this is the usual view you take.
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RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/12/2009 10:36:18 AM
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drmark
Posts: 4636
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: online
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quote:
Hoho, drmark, you are too much. I really find it hard to believe that you could not see what I was trying to say. Either your depth perception is decidedly lacking or you just gloss over what I say, overly anxious to contradict me. agapist, I think we've beat this dead horse enough for one thread. Of course you "find it really hard to believe" that I cannot see what you are trying to say. Half a dozen others on several different threads have also confronted you on your fuzzy thinking, imprecise linguistics, and pie-in-the-sky philosophy, so neither of your conclusions are correct. The simple fact is that we are not communicating effectively and I have better things to do with my time. I will supply my answers to your questions and then call it quits. God bless!
"Can we exist spiritually--breath, walk, eat, or do anything--independently of God's will?" - Of course, that is the definition of "free will".
"Is up to us even to direct our own step?" - I see nowhere in Scripture that God walks for us.
"Can we develop spiritually independent of grace and the Holy Spirit?" - Of course not, spiritual Christians must be led by the Holy Spirit.
"Can we resist temptation on our own?" - Only for a while, but to stop sinning requires abiding in Christ.
"Are we to be other-centered?" - The formula for true JOY is Jesus first, Others second, and Yourself last.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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