|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/12/2009 5:04:16 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2927
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
The lack of clarity is understood. Thank you. We see differently.
Good, if we agree that lack of clarity is a concern with the "love" standard, how is it we can consider it a community standard, since it can not be clearly communicated?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/12/2009 8:32:34 PM
|
|
|
agapist
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
bluethread, you can't understand it, that does not mean it cannot be understood. Go to those in the thread that agreed; take drmark along. Read slowly, open your mind: it is there...if you have the eyes to see.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/13/2009 3:15:45 AM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2927
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
bluethread, you can't understand it, that does not mean it cannot be understood. Go to those in the thread that agreed; take drmark along. Read slowly, open your mind: it is there...if you have the eyes to see.
Oh, I understand what the Scriptures mean when they speak of chesed(Adonai's love) as in Ex 15:13; "Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation." However, unlike the english word "love", this term can be identified by it's use in the Scriptures. If I am not mistaken, with the exception of one or two places where it referes to seriousness in a negative sense, it usually refers to a deep and serious commitment. I am sure the liguists can clarify this. However, even this term with it's rich history among Adonai's people, merely speaks of Adonai's love for His people, it does not embody the entirety of Adonai's relationship with us, our relationship to Him or our relationships with one another.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/13/2009 3:22:58 AM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/13/2009 4:20:24 AM
|
|
|
agapist
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
Sorry, I have no idea what you were commenting on there, bluethread. Was it a question, a rebuttal, a concessation?
I understand the concern about undermining the law. With beautiful plummage, many have tried to circumvent its importance and take flight with a "grander" view (which RJR harps on and believes I have doing).
David wrote 176 verses extolling and boasting how much he loved the law and then what does he say in Psa119:176? Did this great love of the law keep him from lust and murder?
James says, "Do not merely listen to the word and so deceive yourself. Do what is says."
What does it say?
It says Christ is The Way, The truth, and The life. It says to be hidden in Christ, to have te mind of Christ. It says we are to live and movwe and have our being in Christ. It says to love God with ALL YOUR HEART, MIND, SOUL, AND STRENGTH, and like unto it to love your neighbor as yourself. These are the commandments. "This is the SUM of the law and all the prophets."
Utilitarianism, pragmatism, and relativism all arose by ignoring natural law, conscience, that "the law was written on our hearts."
To break the law we need to deceive oursleves.
How can we avoid such self-deception or the mistakes of David?
Such knowledge of the natural law "is not always and in every aspect of life strong enough to withstand a pervasive and sustained attack."
What is?
Guilt is now seen as wrong, an egoic maladjustment. Therapy, not falling on our face and weeping with remorse, is understood as the proper response.
So I know what I am saying seems more of the same.
The word helps to expose the devices of the heart by which we seek to conceal the truth from oursleves, and it is God's law that takes the blinders off.
Jesus was the living Torah. All I am saying is that complete abandonment to him positions us squarely in love--and love is perfect righteousness. He will keep the law in us...if we let him.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/13/2009 10:42:50 AM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
He will keep the law in us...if we let him. One more time - Jesus will empower us to keep the Law, when we appropriate his grace and power and abide fully in Him.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/13/2009 7:52:26 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2927
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
Sorry, I have no idea what you were commenting on there, bluethread. Was it a question, a rebuttal, a concessation?
My point is that I understand the concept of that which constitutes proper behavior between Adonai and us as well as that between each of us. There are many words in many languages that attempt to communicate this concept in one word. I believe, none of these is sufficient to the task.
quote:
I understand the concern about undermining the law. With beautiful plummage, many have tried to circumvent its importance and take flight with a "grander" view (which RJR harps on and believes I have doing).
David wrote 176 verses extolling and boasting how much he loved the law and then what does he say in Psa119:176? Did this great love of the law keep him from lust and murder?
I understand that you see the Tanach as having some value. I just believe that as a standard to which one refers in checking ones view of proper behavior between Adonai and us as well as that between each of us it has great value. Did Ha Torah keep David from lust and murder? No. Did Adonai's Spirit keep Peter from dissing the gentiles?
quote:
James says, "Do not merely listen to the word and so deceive yourself. Do what is says."
What does it say?
It says Christ is The Way, The truth, and The life. It says to be hidden in Christ, to have te mind of Christ. It says we are to live and movwe and have our being in Christ. It says to love God with ALL YOUR HEART, MIND, SOUL, AND STRENGTH, and like unto it to love your neighbor as yourself. These are the commandments. "This is the SUM of the law and all the prophets."
These concepts are incorporated in the word that Jacov(James) was specifically refering to. However, Mt. 22:40 is more properly translated, "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." In other words, as we look at the other Scriptures and our personal revelations, we keep these two in mind.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/14/2009 2:59:35 AM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2927
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
Utilitarianism, pragmatism, and relativism all arose by ignoring natural law, conscience, that "the law was written on our hearts."
To break the law we need to deceive oursleves.
How can we avoid such self-deception or the mistakes of David?
Interesting that you should see David as a utilitarian, pragmatist, and/or relativist. If one were to judge his life by isolated actions one might come to this conclusion. However, if any one lived in the chesed of Adonai, it is David. Just a simple look at his psalms shows that.
quote:
Such knowledge of the natural law "is not always and in every aspect of life strong enough to withstand a pervasive and sustained attack."
What is?
You lost me here. Who are you quoting and what are you refering to as "the natural law"? The word "law" has been used so many contexts, I have lost the track of what you are refering to.
quote:
Guilt is now seen as wrong, an egoic maladjustment. Therapy, not falling on our face and weeping with remorse, is understood as the proper response.
So I know what I am saying seems more of the same.
The word helps to expose the devices of the heart by which we seek to conceal the truth from oursleves, and it is God's law that takes the blinders off.
Jesus was the living Torah. All I am saying is that complete abandonment to him positions us squarely in love--and love is perfect righteousness. He will keep the law in us...if we let him.
If you are disagreeing with me here, it is not clear. I agree that the purpose of the written word is to give us direction on when we are not following Adonai's ways as he has always intended. I would differ with you, however, in how you characterize Yeshua. I believe He was, is and shall be HaTorah of which the written word is just an image in a darkened glass.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/15/2009 1:38:11 AM
|
|
|
agapist
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
Bluethread, I stated early in my boast that David extolled and loved the law, ergo, he did not ignore it.
Later I stated that ignoring the law leads to utilitarianism, etc, ergo, I was not calling David any of those things.
Where I stated that ignoring leads to utilitarianism was an isolated statement, not part of a paragraph, as were the next two sentences isolated thoughts, inter-related only in how it pertains to the question at hand but not defining or qualifying each other.
I feel this is symptomatic of how you have been reading what I say. It is a typical flaw of Western analysis.
Here is another example of Western analysis, which looks at parts and not the whole (watch any drug commercial on TV to appreciate what I mean).
Grahamcracker berated me for saying that those who want to win don't love the game. But I didn't say that. He created a false dichotomy out of my saying I loved the game and winning was not important to me. He extrapolated that into an opposite. I never even implied that not wanting to win was a criterion for loving the game.
Love is not of the mind but of spirit; for me, we don't keep love in mind but allow love to control our thoughts and ways, letting the father (not empower us but) do the works. He uses our hearts and hands, but it is his will and his strength...if we fully surrender.
"The mind controlled by spirit is life." Love is of spirit.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/15/2009 9:52:13 AM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
It is a typical flaw of Western analysis. Ah, now we are going to play the "my cultural mindset is better than yours" game... 
quote:
Love is not of the mind but of spirit Total absolute nonsense! 1 Cor 2:16
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/15/2009 12:50:43 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2927
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
Bluethread, I stated early in my boast that David extolled and loved the law, ergo, he did not ignore it.
Later I stated that ignoring the law leads to utilitarianism, etc, ergo, I was not calling David any of those things.
Where I stated that ignoring leads to utilitarianism was an isolated statement, not part of a paragraph, as were the next two sentences isolated thoughts, inter-related only in how it pertains to the question at hand but not defining or qualifying each other.
Usually when on wishes to seperate ideas one leave an empty line between those ideas. That is the proper sentence structure of paragraphing. If one merely begins a new line it can confuse the reader regarding wether or not a new paragraph has begun. Nothing personal, it is just that, given the your argument in opposition to reason, proper sentence structure is imperative if we are to avoid misunderstandings.
quote:
I feel this is symptomatic of how you have been reading what I say. It is a typical flaw of Western analysis.
Here is another example of Western analysis, which looks at parts and not the whole (watch any drug commercial on TV to appreciate what I mean).
Grahamcracker berated me for saying that those who want to win don't love the game. But I didn't say that. He created a false dichotomy out of my saying I loved the game and winning was not important to me. He extrapolated that into an opposite. I never even implied that not wanting to win was a criterion for loving the game.
I think this is a combination of the sentence structure problem I mentioned above and a reluctance to maintain a distinction between the whole and the parts. Yes, the whole is often greater than the sum of the parts. However, when one then turns and applies that greater portion to the various parts, it becomes part of the sum. Then the whole is no longer greater than the sum.
quote:
Love is not of the mind but of spirit; for me, we don't keep love in mind but allow love to control our thoughts and ways, letting the father (not empower us but) do the works. He uses our hearts and hands, but it is his will and his strength...if we fully surrender.
"The mind controlled by spirit is life." Love is of spirit.
This is classic mysticism. I am not using this term as a pajorative but as a way of differentiating this line of thinking from other approaches. I am doing that so your views can be examined without having to comeback and reestablish the fact that reason is not an essential factor.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/15/2009 3:58:09 PM
|
|
|
agapist
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
"The mind controlled by spirit is life." Romans 8:6
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/15/2009 4:29:45 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2927
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
"The mind controlled by spirit is life." Romans 8:6
Romans (8:5-6) "Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;"
Context, this is not differentiating "the standard of Moses" from the "standard of the Spirit". It is differentiating the sinful mind from the mind controlled by Adonai's Spirit. The sinful mind misuses "the standard of Moses", the mind controlled by Adonai's Spirit applies the standard properly. Therefore, "the standard of Moses" does have a role in the mind controlled by the Spirit.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/16/2009 12:47:17 AM
|
|
|
agapist
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
James2:8, Romans13:8-10, Galatians5:26. Can I hear an Amen to this debate.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/16/2009 2:21:14 AM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2927
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
James2:8, Romans13:8-10, Galatians5:26. Can I hear an Amen to this debate.
I am glad you are giving me the opportunity to comment on these passages. However, I am in not way saying you can not comment.
James 2:8-10 "If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. '
Again we see in context that Paul is not speaking of "Love your neighbor as yourself" as a new standard, but a standard of HaTorah that supports the priunciple of "equal treatment under the law," a principle that was adopted by the founders of the USA in setting up the judicial branch of this government. Should the USA abolish all laws and leave everything to the discretion of judges who make their decisions based on what is the "loving" thing to do?
(Rom. 13:8-10) "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."
The incoming context speaks of ones duty to those in authority and how we should do what we can to avoid being distracted by such things. In this way we can focus on loving one another. Then, so we do not mistake what loving is, he defines the term. He is not saying that the things listed are not worthy of our consideration, but that if one is truly loving one will do these things. Thus love is a shorthand way of saying, keep the commandments.
(Gal. 5:26-6:1) "Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted."
In this passage, Paul has just finished comparing the works of the flesh with the fruit of Adonai's Spirit. In light of our tendency toward the works of the flesh, we need to watch ourselves. Does this mean we should not provoke one another at all? Elsewhere it is said, (Heb 10:24) "And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:" Therefore, it is not the provocation that is the problem. The problem comes when one does not do so gently, understanding that one may also need correction from time to time.
Indeed, I say amen to all of these passages, for they are further evidence of the need for "the standard of Moses" in helping us treat each other even handedly, love one another in a manner that is pleasing to Adonai, and walk circumspectly, gently provoking one another unto love and good works.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/16/2009 2:43:39 AM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/16/2009 8:31:45 AM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
Therefore, "the standard of Moses" does have a role in the mind controlled by the Spirit. Right on, Bluethread! Preach it, brother!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/16/2009 9:00:12 PM
|
|
|
agapist
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
My deepest apologies. I ask forgiveness from all those that my attitude may have upset. My presentation has caused divisivness and for that I am truly sorry. I should have consulted my own notes on this topic long ago; I can only surmise it was pride.
My approach has been too broad and casual and this eventually led to an adversarial trend; it was my "delicate sensibilities" and wandering style that created the tension. I take full responsibility for this unfortunate state of affairs.
We all have a natural bent eith toward legalism or license. After re-reading my posts, it became clear my views appeared to fall clearly in the "license" area, deserving to be labeled one of those half-baked "isms."
In my next post I hope to change that opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/16/2009 9:41:14 PM
|
|
|
agapist
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
Let me be unequivocal from the start on where I stand:
All the law of the OT (the Ten Commandments, social and ceremonial rules) were meant ONLY for the Jews living in the physical kingdom of the promised land, Israel, as guide and tutor UNTIL the arrival of Christ and his death on the cross. His death terminated the Torah as a rule of life.
To believe the law of torah is still the rule of life is a fall from grace, it is an instrument of the anti-christ.
His life, received by grace, will result in good works, not keeping the law.
We are not under the law (Romans 6:14). We are dead to the law (Romans7:4). We are delivered from the law (Romans7:6).
The law still serves a valid and useful role of "ministry of condemnation"--and not one jot has been changed or done away with in that regard.
What we ought to do is not guided or determined by the law but given by grace from complete faith in Christ.
Grace provides the incentive, motive, and means.
The word "teaching" by the Holy Spirit includes all aspects of growth: discipline, perseverance, maturing, obedience, progress, and so on.
Grace, not the law, trains us to reject godless ways and worldly desires, and to willingly live by the ONE RULE of love.
Grace is now the authoritative guidance in our lives.
Focusing on the law gets us nowhere; it is only consciousness of sin.
Law and grace are pitted against each other as irreconcilable approaches to being "put right" (justified) with God.
This is a vital point: the law seeks to restrain, in the main, the passions of the carnal nature VERSUS grace seeks to put to death all that is carnal in us, so that a new and eternal life can be born in us.
The hall mark of the New Covenant is death to self.
Caese all self-effort. The flesh of the believer is no better than the flesh of the un-believer. Not by any means on the ground of our own effort, of striving to keep the law, can we gain any measure of holiness; it is by grace alone.
Self generated do-good intentions, resolutely attempting to compel our old nature to be subject to it only results in a greater distance from the law of grace and love.
The principle purpose of the law is to condemn us. It is to show us plainly that we cannot do good works on our resources in order that we might GIVE UP the law and gain true life in Christ.
The source of the Torah stems from the eternal and holy character of God, which Christ incarnated. Live and move and have your being in him.
As to the holy character of God, what is God? God is love. so...LOVE AND DO WHAT YOU WILL, LOVE AND FORGET ABOUT THE REST.
(For your reading pleasure: All of Galatians and Romans. Specific C & V will be given as your questions come.)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/16/2009 11:23:21 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
The flesh of the believer is no better than the flesh of the un-believer. Well, I thought you were doing great until you got to this point, agapist. The fact is that the "flesh" (physical human nature) of the Believer is no worse than the "flesh" of the unbeliever. But frankly, that is irrelevant to sinning rightly defined as willful disobedience. It is the sinful nature that generates willful sinning and it is the sinful nature that must be put to death in order to live the holy life victorious over sinning.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/16/2009 11:50:55 PM
|
|
|
agapist
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
Scriptural evidence used for the views expressed in my preceeding post. Please read with complete openness to the Holy Spirit and allow yourself to be set free from Torah at your leisure.
John1:17, 6:63; Romans3:20, 3:21-28, 5:10, 5:20-21, 6:14, 7:2. 7:4, 7:6, 8:2, 9:14; Acts17:25; All of Galatians but especially 3:10 and 5:18; Eph2:8-9; Heb13:20-21; 1Tim1:8; Titus3:4-7; 1Peter1:9-10.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/16/2009 11:52:45 PM
|
|
|
agapist
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
drmark, read, that is exactly what I said.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/17/2009 12:04:30 AM
|
|
|
agapist
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
Being touchy again; bad attitude on my part. Thank you drmark for your loving comments.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/17/2009 12:52:57 AM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2927
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
Thank you for presenting a list of the primary doctrines you hold. I will note this post and take it into consideration as we progress. The docrtine I would like to first examine is "Grace, not the law, trains us to reject godless ways and worldly desires, and to willingly live by the ONE RULE of love. Grace is now the authoritative guidance in our lives." Since grace is the means by which we maintain the standard of love, as you define it, can you tell me how grace does that? Not to be provocative, but in order to focus on the issues that seperate positions like yours from "the standard of the law of Moses", I will present a practice that appears to be on the near horizon in the USA. How does one determine how to handle the request of siblings who wish to marry each other under this grace/love only standard?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/17/2009 12:59:30 AM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/17/2009 2:07:54 AM
|
|
|
agapist
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
bluethread, every presentation of a scenario is up to our surrender to the guidance of grace. There is no answer but complete surrender to faith in Christ. It is not situational per se, yet how we respond, with the depth perception of the eternal (God's plan), is wholely up to placing our faith in Christ. God only knows.
Can we call Christ a standard to live by or an ideal to strive to imitate, or do we fully surrender to faith in Christ and live in him, BECOMING of one spirit with God. All this by grace, of course.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/17/2009 2:12:45 AM
|
|
|
rawr.ben
Posts: 2729
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
|
That was quite a non-answer.
_____________________________
rawr.ben
Facebook
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/17/2009 4:14:16 AM
|
|
|
agapist
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
Not if you look deeply instead of closely. Non-answrs are a matter of your perception.
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
