|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/17/2009 10:42:10 AM
|
|
|
jjbird
Posts: 508
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: online
|
The Law was designed to get us from the Promise (Gal. 3:8) to the the Fulfilment of the Promise in Christ (Gal. 3:16). It, therefore, served as a "bridge" spanning the two poles (Promise and Fulfilment), and was never intended by God to be the ultimate means of reconciliation.
Oftentimes preachers show a too one-sided approach to the Law, mentioning only its negative characteristics (the letter that kills, the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, etc.). Of course, all this is true and needs to be stressed so that men understand that we are not subject to the Old Covenant. At the same time, the Law was perfect for the purpose God had in giving it (how could a Perfect God give us an imperfect Law), and perfectly served that purpose in God's plan. I cringe whenever I hear people mistakenly referring to the Law as if it were something less than perfect--as though God made a mistake the first time and had to correct His mistake in the Gospel. See Gal. 3:9ff. for help in this regard. SO, I generally also balance the discussion of the Law with those characteristics that are positive:
1. The Law was/is not sin (Rom. 7:7).
2. The Law was/is holy, righteous, and good (Rom. 7:12).
3. The Law was/is spiritual (Rom. 7:14).
4. The Law was/is a Law of righteousness, to be pursued by faith (Rom. 9:30-33).
The fact that the Jews turned the Law into a "works code" was NOT God's fault (see Rom. 9:30-10:4). It was instead their fault, so, the blame was rightly attributed to them and not the Law itself (see Heb. 8:7-13, and notice carefully the expression, "for finding fault with them").
Every covenant that God gave consisted of two primary types of ordinances (1) moral precepts (which derive their force from WHO God is, not necessarily what He says); and (2) positive precepts (which derive their force exclusively from WHAT God says). ONLY the positive precepts change from covenant to covenant. God's moral precepts never change (see Mal. 3:6). As an example, it was wrong for Cain to murder Abel LOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGG before such was noted in the Ten Commandments. The wrongness in murder is rooted in the nature of God Who is life itself, and in the image of God with which each of us has been created (Gen. 9:5), and not in what God said (as though this would somehow be arbitrary, and could actually have been otherwise). Consequently, the Law bears a much closer relationship to the Gospel than some have previously noted, since the moral precepts of God are always binding on His creation.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/17/2009 11:21:38 AM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
drmark, read, that is exactly what I said. No, it's not, agapist. You used a very specific term "flesh" which is subject to potential confusion and misrepresentation in many doctrinal circles. I clarified using the term "sinful nature" which I believe minimizes the misunderstanding of physical humanity being essentially sinful. This faulty doctrinal position is widespread on these Theology Forums, in my experience.
quote:
Non-answrs are a matter of your perception. No, they are not, agapist, when at least ten other folks make the very same observation on multiple threads. If you are truly sincere in your desire to share your position more clearly, then you need to answer specific questions with specific answers, not worthless platitudes of personal philosophy.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/17/2009 12:50:25 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Every covenant that God gave consisted of two primary types of ordinances (1) moral precepts (which derive their force from WHO God is, not necessarily what He says); and (2) positive precepts (which derive their force exclusively from WHAT God says). ONLY the positive precepts change from covenant to covenant. God's moral precepts never change (see Mal. 3:6).
This is a much more clearly defined construct. However, it is still subject to the need to divid "the standard of the law of Moses" into two standards. One must still go through the commandments one by one to determine which "precepts" are "moral" and which ones are "positive". The Scriptures do not appear to make this distiction, but intertwine the character of Adonai with what he requires of us.
If you are differentiating between the passages that contain the phrase, "I am Adonai" and those that say "Adonai says", you would need to prove this construct with some clear examples.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/17/2009 1:39:51 PM
|
|
|
agapist
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
The Torah was terminated as a rule for life when Christ died on the cross.
There is no picking and choosing the positive and negative. Grace is what guides and determines our actions now.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/17/2009 1:51:08 PM
|
|
|
agapist
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
I am sure you know, drmark, that this number you keep inflating everytime you post could equal an actual thousand people or more and still prove nothing. What do you get out of disparaging me like this. Can you please just stick to the topic.
I used "flesh" in the sense of our own resources, the ability to resist.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/17/2009 3:31:11 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
The Torah was terminated as a rule for life when Christ died on the cross. Chapter and verse, please.
quote:
Can you please just stick to the topic. Can you please respond to specific questions with specific answers. That would be on-topic... 
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/17/2009 4:55:19 PM
|
|
|
ChainSaw
Posts: 134
Joined: 10/17/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
The Torah was terminated as a rule for life when Christ died on the cross. Chapter and verse, please.
Romans 7
4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Galatians 5
24...the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/17/2009 5:48:43 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
Welcome to the Forums, Chainsaw! I'm sorry, but I do not see the Law being "terminated as a rule for life" in these passages. But I really do understand how one may conclude that concept from this Scripture.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/17/2009 6:01:16 PM
|
|
|
agapist
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
drmark, I gave you that c & v in my post. There is more Scripture given in a separate post. It's all there. We do not check in with the Torah. We are not guided by the Torah. Grace has taken over that job. Grace and the Torah are, as I stated earlier, irreconcilable approaches to being put right with God. You can't have it both ways.
All the research has been done for you. All the law of the OT is no longer a rule for life.
Thank you, chainsaw. I agree. That is the same verse I noted plainly in my other post.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/17/2009 10:06:18 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
bluethread, every presentation of a scenario is up to our surrender to the guidance of grace. There is no answer but complete surrender to faith in Christ. It is not situational per se, yet how we respond, with the depth perception of the eternal (God's plan), is wholely up to placing our faith in Christ. God only knows.
Can we call Christ a standard to live by or an ideal to strive to imitate, or do we fully surrender to faith in Christ and live in him, BECOMING of one spirit with God. All this by grace, of course.
That does not answer the question. Let me put it directly. What does the grace/love view say regarding brother and sister in their late thirties or forties who can not seem to find anyone else who is compatable awish to marry each other?
Regarding your quoting of verses. I have given you the interpretation that I believe Adonai's Spirit has given to me. Yet, the only coherent reaponse from you is, you can't understand. This is the standard gnostic argument. If you are indeed the recipient of knowledge that can not be rationally justified, but is only understood by those who who are "of one spirit with God", that is fine. However, you seem to presenting your views as if they are easily understood. If that is the case, it should not be difficult to render a judgement with regard to the question I have presented above. If the answer is, "It depends.", that is also acceptable, as long as a clear answer is given regarding that on which it depends.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/17/2009 10:48:48 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
Romans 7
4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
You stopped too soon.
7 "What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet.""
Paul then goes on to say that when one knows what one should do, one's rebellious heart takes the opportunity to sin. Had Adonai not said, "Do not covet" coveting would not be a sin. However, since He did say that, it is a sin. Therefore, the regenerate heart is not "married" to the written, but is free to do as Adonai commands out of a spirit of love. So, love is the motivation not the standard. the standard is that which proceeds from the mouth of Adonai.
quote:
Galatians 5
24...the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
This is Gal 5:24-25 "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. "
This passage reinforces my point. It is the sinful nature that has been crucified, we now need to keep in step with Adonai's Spirit. How does one do that? By doing as His Spirit has has commanded us.
Now, Gal 3:24-25 says, "So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law."
If you notice there is a so at the begining of these verses, which you happened to leave out. This tells us that this is a conclusion. What is the argument that this is concluding?
vs. 21-23 "Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed."
It was never the intent of the law to impart eternal life. The purpose of the law is proper living. However, before the knowledge of Yeshua HaMeshiach this is all we had to verify our faith in The Promise. So, as Paul says in verse 24, we had to depend on "the standard of the law of Moses" as a down payment on The Promise. Now that the details of The Promise have been revealed, as we see in verse 25, we can place our faith in Adonai Yeshua and live knowing that what had been promised is true. "The standard of the law of Moses" is not the only thing we have into which to place our faith, but we now have the example of Yeshua and, yes, personal revelation.
True, it does not say, "the details of The Promise". It says, "Now that faith has come . . ." Does this mean that salvation was by works before the incarnation. We know from Romans 4:13, "It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith." Therefore, Paul does not mean to say that faith did not exist prior to The Sacrifice, but that in which we put our faith, The Promise, has come. This gives us a new prospective, we have a greater hope based on the knowledge of The Sacrifice, so we are under a much greater condemnation if we reject so great a salvation. But, as I said before, "the standard of the law of Moses" is not for salvation. Paul tells us this in the passage above.
So, what is the purpose of "the standard of the law of Moses". One of those purposes was to point us the Yeshua for salvation. Another purpose, we see in Roman 7 is to help us to know what sin is. If we know what sin is, we can now avoid it with the power of Adonai's Spirit.
In conclusion, in context, these passages do not reject "the standard of the law of Moses", but give us a better understanding of two of it's purposes.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/17/2009 11:11:02 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/18/2009 8:10:20 AM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
In conclusion, in context, these passages do not reject "the standard of the law of Moses", but give us a better understanding of two of it's purposes. Exactly, BT, thanks for your eloquent analysis!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/18/2009 1:16:08 PM
|
|
|
agapist
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
I understand that many Christian teachers of great repute still consider the Mosaic Law the present-day rule of life. It is not. Such a belief is, in fact, a fall from the law of grace and love.
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse.
The law serves ONE purpose: to condemn us, and that was meant to turn us to faith in Christ, to the New Covenant: The Law of grace and love. The law still serves that one useful and vital role: a "ministry of condemnation."
The self generated do-good intentions of following standards is the way of death.
If you are led by spirit you are not under the law but dead to and delivered from it.
Since we are led by the spirit (not the law), let us keep step with the spirit (and not standards we hold, which can only hold us back from grace).
We are to live by faith in Christ alone, not by any standards. His life, received by grace, results in good works.
Through Christ the law of spirit set us free from the Torah, the law of sin and death.
Grace (not the law) trains us to reject godless ways and worldly desires and is the incentive, power, motive, and means to willingly live by the ONE RULE of love.
Grace is now the authoritative guidance in each moment and in all our affairs. Wait on the lord. God only knows what is best.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/18/2009 7:59:00 PM
|
|
|
ChainSaw
Posts: 134
Joined: 10/17/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
So, what is the purpose of "the standard of the law of Moses". One of those purposes was to point us the Yeshua for salvation. Another purpose, we see in Roman 7 is to help us to know what sin is. If we know what sin is, we can now avoid it with the power of Adonai's Spirit.
I think what agapist wants to convey is you cannot, and will not, please God through simply knowing what the law says and then making a determination to do it. Anyone who depends on that way to please God is actually setting themselves up to displease God through the failure of the flesh.
We have the new (fully revealed) way of relating to God through the work of the Holy Spirit transforming our hearts with a revelation of God's forgiveness. A revelation that is veiled and ineffective through the ministry of law. As Paul points out, that ministry results in death, not transformation. Grace is what transforms, not knowledge of the law. It's all well and good to know why you're condemned as a sinner through the law, but that is not what saves a person. Grace given to cover the condemnation of the law is what saves a person.
It is to no credit of the law that anyone is transformed except that it prepares us for transformation. And since that is how we became alive (through the grace of forgiveness, not law) Paul says that is also how we are to continue to live. Going backward to a deceitful dependance on works of the law to stay alive in Christ is the danger Paul warns about. Not talking about salvation here, but living in the 'righteous, peace, and joy' of the Holy Spirit (Rom. 14:17-18). The irony of it is, if we are careful to not fall back on the works of the law as the source of life, but rely on the power of the revelation of God's forgiveness we will in fact satisfy the requirements of the law and be "pleasing to God and approved by men" (same passage). This is the stumbling block for the Jew. They think life comes from the law (the lawful requirements of eating and drinking--same passage again). No. Life comes from God's gracious forgiveness, which in turn leads us to the holiness of the law and beyond.
Grace is how we live day to day, minute to minute, not law. Relying on that truth is what will in turn fulfill the requirements of the law in a person. I'm convinced this is only learned through the actual experience of what it's like to have power over sin because of a revelation of God's grace, beyond any 'textbook' understanding of it, which is where much of the church is at. I share agapist frustration of trying to get people to understand how to live by the Spirit, and not by unrolling a copy of Torah with your cup of coffee every morning. That's okay to do, as long as you understand that, in and of itself, law cannot lead anyone to live a righteous life, but only gives us a veiled image of what righteous character does. As Paul is pointing out, if used that way, law will actually drive a person in the opposite direction of a righteous life.
Peter says it is being conscious of God's grace given to us in the forgiveness of our sins that makes us effective and productive in our knowledge of God. The person who loses sight of the grace he has received in Christ is the one who cannot please God. This has nothing to do with the power of the law to transform a person, but of God's grace to perfect righteous character in a person:
2 Peter 1
5...add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
See? It is the person who is fully aware and cognizant of the forgiveness he has received in Christ that causes him to please God through the qualities and characteristics of the Spirit. Characteristics and qualities that the law points us to, but a law that is powerless to perfect them in a person. Only the grace of forgiveness can do that. To side step this new way (the way of the Spirit, as Paul says) that has now been fully revealed to the church, and fall back to the other way of reading about what you should do in the law and then trying to do it, is in effect to put yourself under the curse of failing to do what is written in the law.
< Message edited by ChainSaw -- 10/18/2009 8:09:52 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/18/2009 8:10:50 PM
|
|
|
agapist
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
Very nice presentation, chainsaw; more clarity than I seem able to convey.
I would like to add this:
Ultimately, any standard we choose to live by has the full weight of the world on it; this will crush the activity of spirit.
We live by nothing more than faith ib Christ, that received grace, and it is more than enough for a life of perfect righteousness.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/18/2009 9:16:10 PM
|
|
|
ta_mosquito
Posts: 10984
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
Status: offline
|
MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Just a friendly reminder to not turn this into a discussion about keeping the Law. CLICK HERE to go to the thread that is for that topic.
Thanks!
Tricia
Forums Moderator
Please do not reply to this message within the forums or chat.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/19/2009 1:53:19 AM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
Very nice presentation, chainsaw; more clarity than I seem able to convey.
I would like to add this:
Ultimately, any standard we choose to live by has the full weight of the world on it; this will crush the activity of spirit.
We live by nothing more than faith ib Christ, that received grace, and it is more than enough for a life of perfect righteousness.
Ok, for the sake of discussion, let's accept this view that there is no standard apart from love and grace. What do we say to those methodists who are insisting that homosexuality is acceptable because they have "faith in Christ" and have recieved His grace? I bring this up not to get into a full discussion of homosexuality. There is a thread for that. I am just attempting to discern how one determines such things under the love/grace only model.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/19/2009 1:59:48 AM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/19/2009 2:34:21 PM
|
|
|
rawr.ben
Posts: 2729
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
Very nice presentation, chainsaw; more clarity than I seem able to convey.
I would like to add this:
Ultimately, any standard we choose to live by has the full weight of the world on it; this will crush the activity of spirit.
We live by nothing more than faith ib Christ, that received grace, and it is more than enough for a life of perfect righteousness.
Ok, for the sake of discussion, let's accept this view that there is no standard apart from love and grace. What do we say to those methodists who are insisting that homosexuality is acceptable because they have "faith in Christ" and have recieved His grace? I bring this up not to get into a full discussion of homosexuality. There is a thread for that. I am just attempting to discern how one determines such things under the love/grace only model.
There is no way to determine right and wrong, sin and righteousness, etc, in an entirely relativistic model of Christianity.
This is why we were given the guidelines. Because trusting our "feelings" gets us nowhere. The heart is wicked, who can know it?
_____________________________
rawr.ben
Facebook
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/19/2009 3:30:18 PM
|
|
|
agapist
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
"The heart is wicked" prior to being born again, for then we are a new creation, a child of God.
People can choose not to listen to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, just as they can choose to ignore the law. Has this disproven the power of the Holy Spirit or undermined "the ministry of condemnation"?
Christians are walking a continuum. We are at different levels of maturity. Even some who appear to be quite mature can have a residual stronghold that blinds or hardens their heart.
To call reliance of the Holy Spirit, which is commanded in the New Covenant (along with turning from the law), as relativistic wounds God.
Trust fully in God. The problem here, though, is the bent toward legalism; we want backup, solid support for how we are to act--and that violates trust.
You know that even before Moses there was the law written on our hearts, the natural law.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/19/2009 4:03:37 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
People can choose not to listen to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, just as they can choose to ignore the law. Has this disproven the power of the Holy Spirit or undermined "the ministry of condemnation"?
Sorry to inconvenience you, but good methodists are waiting on a response to many of their leaders who find no problem with homosexual relationships. What do we say to those methodists who are insisting that homosexuality is acceptable because they have "faith in Christ" and have received His grace? We need not get into a full blowen discussion of this issue. I'm just asking what one would say to one with such a view.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/19/2009 4:14:06 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/19/2009 4:23:27 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
What do we say to those methodists who are insisting that homosexuality is acceptable because they have "faith in Christ" and have received His grace? Looks like agapist's answer is more mystical mumbo-jumbo: "Trust fully in God" so you can forget about how you act...
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/19/2009 4:52:01 PM
|
|
|
agapist
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
Bluethread, I would say the same thing to the methodists that I would say to drmark: study the word. drmark sees nothing wrong with being discourteous and unkind, defaming, or with rebuking Scripture. Although we are clearly instructed to be courteous and kind to all, drmark ignores what is clearly written as do the methodist.
Scripture is clear about homsexuality. I assume they (the methodist) have Bibles. If they are blind to what it says, Satan has their ear, not Spirit. It does not matter what a person claims, you know them by their fruit.
Spirit convicts...but we have the free will to ignore that conviction.
Please read Titus2:11-14.
We have life in the liberty and power of God's grace by the spirit, not by the law.
The instructions on our complete surrender to spirit are quite explicit in Scripture. It is not mystical mumbo-jumbo and I feel that saying it is does a disservice to God's word.
The morality of the Christian life is to be THE result of the Christ exchanged life by faith and submission to the ministry and power of a spirit-controlled life. This is the New Covenant. To go back to the law as a way of life puts one under control of the sinful nature, nullifies TRUE spirituality by faith, and defeats the believer.
drmark: you are not attacking me but the Word. It would be wise to overlook your apparent animosity and judgments toward me and do a little research. You, like two others, come onto a post just to accuse and condemn a person, offering nothing uplifting or substantial.
Bluethread, I will give you more Scripture on what living by spirit means.
The law and spirit are in contrast to each other, irreconcilable approaches to God after the coming of Christ. We cannot have it both ways.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/19/2009 6:58:09 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
Bluethread, I would say the same thing to the methodists that I would say to drmark: study the word. drmark sees nothing wrong with being discourteous and unkind, defaming, or with rebuking Scripture. Although we are clearly instructed to be courteous and kind to all, drmark ignores what is clearly written as do the methodist.
Scripture is clear about homsexuality. I assume they (the methodist) have Bibles. If they are blind to what it says, Satan has their ear, not Spirit. It does not matter what a person claims, you know them by their fruit.
Spirit convicts...but we have the free will to ignore that conviction.
If you wish to talk about drmark do so to him. He does have a harsh manner at times, but so do you and I. I prefer to focus on the substance of one's comments and not the manner in which they are presented, unless that presentation is an integral part of the substance or there is no substance on which to focus.
In that vain, I would not be so discourteous and unkind as to hold all methodists responsible for the actions of some in their leadership. There are many who make the point you say they should make. However, some in the leadership say "the Spirit" is telling them otherwise. If the Scriptures are not a standard, who are we to say otherwise. Is it not unkind to say "Satan has their ear" if the standard is "the Spirit" and the Scriptures are not a standard?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/19/2009 7:05:32 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
