|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/19/2009 7:00:04 PM
|
|
|
ChainSaw
Posts: 134
Joined: 10/17/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
...The morality of the Christian life is to be THE result of the Christ exchanged life by faith and submission to the ministry and power of a spirit-controlled life. This is the New Covenant. To go back to the law as a way of life puts one under control of the sinful nature, nullifies TRUE spirituality by faith, and defeats the believer.
drmark: you are not attacking me but the Word. It would be wise to overlook your apparent animosity and judgments toward me and do a little research. You, like two others, come onto a post just to accuse and condemn a person, offering nothing uplifting or substantial.
Bluethread, I will give you more Scripture on what living by spirit means.
The law and spirit are in contrast to each other, irreconcilable approaches to God after the coming of Christ. We cannot have it both ways.
I hear exactly what you're saying. And I also understand why they can't hear what you're saying. The standard of the law is not why we live. The standard of love is why we live. We do not obey because "it is written". If that were true there would be no need whatsoever for the promise of the Spirit spoken of by the prophets. Just more Torah lessons and a few whips.
I think I know what they're hammering you for. If I'm not mistaken you've already acknowledged that the law is where we get the knowledge of our condemnation. And as you've pointed out, that knowledge was already in the world before the law was written down (ie, Sodom and Gomorrah).
No standard of the law, no matter how high you lift it, can rescue the homosexual offender. The standard of the law is not how he can live. All the law can do is seal the case for his condemnation. The ministry of the law ends there. It can do no more. But so many people think a continued examination of, and dedication to the law will bring the life of the Spirit. Hardly true.
The only standard by which a homosexual can live is the standard of grace--the knowledge of forgiveness of sins in Christ. It is by that standard, the standard of love, that he will turn from sin and live. He, and all the rest of us, dies through the message of condemnation (the law). But we live by the message of God's grace, the power of which brings us to repentenance through a transformed heart, not a conserted effort and determination to now keep the law that condemned us, though that is clearly the goal that is ultimately acheived. Just not in the way so many people are deceived through lack of knowledge into relying on.
Once we've received the life of the Spirit through the message of God's grace we are told to continue in that life in the same way--reliance on the life changing message of God's grace, the forgiveness of our sins. Not by a conserted effort to drill the standard of the law into our hearts and minds in the misguided belief that it will somehow cause us to not sin anymore. Paul says that will in fact cause you to sin more! That's the deceitfulness of reliance on the law to please God, even as a believer!
Agapist, I hear exactly what you're saying. No one ever pleased God because of the law. No one can actively please God to his satisfaction through the standard of the law. We can only actively please God through the standard of love...love for God, love for man, that comes to us through the message of reconciliation, not the law. This is true no matter how many times you write the law down, memorize it, or speak it out loud. It's powerless to rescue you from sin, even as a Spirit filled believer. God's grace is the standard by which we please God and fulfill the law, not the standard of the law itself.
If you want to please God now that you've been condemned through the word of condemnation (the law), you fill yourself up with the message of God's grace, not a relentless bashing of how you're condemned under the law and need to be different. It didn't work for the Israelites. God's invitatiton to them through the prophets was to accept his mercy and grace and be forgiven their trespasses, which they refused (the law didn't change anybody then, nor will it now). We have that same message of God's forgiveness now fully revealed in the ministry of reconciliation through Jesus Christ.
Exalt the standard of Moses all you want. It'll condemn a lot of people but it won't change a single soul. Only the message of reconciliation can do that. That is how we are made alive in the Spirit and, as believers, continue in that life. Elevating the law as if that's what gave you life, and continues to give you life, is the very thing that Paul warns us not to do. It only leads back to displeasing God in the bondage of the flesh.
I hear you loud and clear, agapist.
And just so the moderators don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying for one second that this all means we don't have to 'keep the law' anymore. And I trust that agapist is not making that sweeping generalization either. We believe the Bible teaches another (now fully revealed "new") way to please God that does in fact satisfy the righteous requirements of the law. The irony of which is, the law itself is not the 'way' to...keep the law. That's the 'old' way...the old supervisor that the people of God relied on.
< Message edited by ChainSaw -- 10/19/2009 7:19:37 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/19/2009 7:26:38 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
The only standard by which a homosexual can live is the standard of grace--the knowledge of forgiveness of sins in Christ. It is by that standard, the standard of love, that he will turn from sin and live.
I am not just talking about the homosexual, those who argue that a homosexual lifestyle can be loving and since they have been saved by grace there is no condemnation. The point is not how the practicing homosexual can stop thier behavior. The question is why should they, if "love and grace" are the only standard for daily living and personal revelation has primacy over the Scriptures.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/19/2009 7:27:00 PM
|
|
|
ChainSaw
Posts: 134
Joined: 10/17/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...If the Scriptures are not a standard, who are we to say otherwise. Is it not unkind to say "Satan has their ear" if the standard is "the Spirit" and the Scriptures are not a standard?
The written word itself is not the standard we lay hold of by which we please God. The standard we grasp that changes us and causes us to please God is the message of God's love poured out for us in Christ Jesus.
I hope this clears up the disconnect between what agapist is saying and what you are hearing.
< Message edited by ChainSaw -- 10/19/2009 7:34:26 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/19/2009 7:42:59 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...If the Scriptures are not a standard, who are we to say otherwise. Is it not unkind to say "Satan has their ear" if the standard is "the Spirit" and the Scriptures are not a standard?
The written word itself is not the standard we lay hold of by which we please God. The standard we grasp that changes us and causes us to please God is the message of God's grace given us in Christ Jesus.
I hope this clears up the disconnect between what agapist is saying and what you are hearing.
Without the Scriptures, how do we know what "the message of God's grace" is? If one says the message can be received without the Scriptures, is that not personal revelation? If that revelation is correct, that is all well and good. However, as I pointed out with the controversy in the methodist church, there is much disagreement regarding what "the Spirit" says.
We are to test the spirits as John tells us (1Jo 4:1) "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." It appears that speaking of "love and grace" as the standard without those terms being fleshed out by the Scriptures is not sufficient. This makes the Scriptures a necessary part of even the standard of "love and grace", for it is by the standard of the scriptures that we judge one's definition of "love and grace".
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/19/2009 7:53:10 PM
|
|
|
ChainSaw
Posts: 134
Joined: 10/17/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...The point is not how the practicing homosexual can stop thier behavior. The question is why should they, if "love and grace" are the only standard for daily living and personal revelation has primacy over the Scriptures.
The primacy of personal revelation over the law is that it is a revelation of God's forgiveness given us in Christ Jesus (the message of grace), not just a revelation of how wrong it is (the message of condemnation, the law). Simply knowing about the standard of the law against homosexual behavior is not in and of itself sufficient to answer the question of 'why' he should stop his behavior. God's love, as expressed to us in the life of Jesus Christ, is the 'why' the homosexual will repent of his lifestyle. The Bible is very, very clear about this. God's love is 'why' we change, not the law. This snippet of scripture tells us very plainly 'why' men repent...
"...God's kindness leads you toward repentance..." Romans 2:4
And it is the continued knowledge of God's kindness (expressed to us in Christ Jesus) that answers the 'why' for the struggling saint. "Because he loves me, that's why." This is the power of the Spirit-filled life, not the law. Paul says law is the power of sin! That's why we must rely on the message of grace rather than the message of the law to live as believers, pleasing to God.
We love (fulfill the requirements of the law) "because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19), not because "it is written". Are you getting a picture of the standard by which we are to live day by day as believers now?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/19/2009 8:04:17 PM
|
|
|
agapist
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
bluethread, this is so ridiculous I am finding it hard to grasp. You mentioned certain methodists that were saying homosexuality was okay. those particular methodists were the target group of your question to me and that is how I responded, about those particular methodist. Then you accuse me of holding all methodist responsible: where on earth did you see me say that?
Did you read Titus2:11-14? That will help clarify the nature of how spirit works and why we do not follow the Torah anymore.
If you have not read the other supporting Scripture I have given you, we will continue to go around in circles.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/20/2009 12:09:25 PM
|
|
|
Liveloved
Posts: 1816
Status: offline
|
quote:
The written word itself is not the standard we lay hold of by which we please God. The standard we grasp that changes us and causes us to please God is the message of God's love poured out for us in Christ Jesus.
ChainSaw and agapist are doing a great job of expressing the very gospel we say we believe. I feel inadequate in adding to their thoughts yet believe the point being made is vital.
The 'standard of the law of Moses' is not being rejected. To reject the standard would be to reject Jesus Who is the fulfillment of the law. God forbid!
The 'standard of the law of Moses' could be seen as a vehicle that takes us to Jesus and in that, it is wonderful! The 'standard of the law of Moses' shows me my need of a Savior. And that savior will never be found in my effort of keeping the law. I try. And fail. I try and fail. I try and succeed. . . oh yes, I can do it. I try. And fail. I try. And fail. And PTL eventually Grace finds me. Grace saves me.
The 'standard of the law of Moses' drove me there. But it did not 'get' me there. KWIM? Grace did. Jesus did.
. . . and I press on in order that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. I am a new creature transformed by the Power of Love. Life breathed into law that transforms it into grace, all motivated by love. And we live love. Yes, it is God's kindness that led me here. And I am thankful, so very thankful.
The 'standard of the law of Moses' has its place. But it's fulfillment is found in Jesus and in Him, we have been made complete. We no longer submit to elementary principles which have the appearance of wisdom but are really of no value at all.
We are found in Him, hidden in Him, Christ in you, the hope of glory!
Edited to add:
As I walked away, I was singing the song 'Only By Grace' and wanted to add these thoughts. The song says 'only by grace do we enter, only by grace do we stand'.
We enter by grace. Through the blood of Jesus poured out for us so that our sins are not counted against us is the grace by which we enter.
We stand by grace. Through the blood of Jesus poured out for us so that our sins are not counted against us is the grace by which we stand as well.
'Not by our human endeavor' is how the song continues. We enter by grace and we stand by grace. None of it is 'our' doing. It is all His, all Jesus. He is our righteousness.
We enter by the Spirit and stand by the Spirit. It is not the works of the law by which we enter. It is not the works of the law by which we stand. It is all Jesus. It is only by grace. 
< Message edited by Liveloved -- 10/20/2009 12:48:42 PM >
_____________________________
Liveloved
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/20/2009 4:50:19 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
The primacy of personal revelation over the law is that it is a revelation of God's forgiveness given us in Christ Jesus (the message of grace), not just a revelation of how wrong it is (the message of condemnation, the law). Simply knowing about the standard of the law against homosexual behavior is not in and of itself sufficient to answer the question of 'why' he should stop his behavior. God's love, as expressed to us in the life of Jesus Christ, is the 'why' the homosexual will repent of his lifestyle. The Bible is very, very clear about this. God's love is 'why' we change, not the law. This snippet of scripture tells us very plainly 'why' men repent...
"...God's kindness leads you toward repentance..." Romans 2:4
I agree that simple knowledge is not enough. Yes, this forum is a perfect example of how someone can repeat something over and over and the listener not accept what is being said. There must also be understanding. Now if this understanding is entirely a matter of personal revelation, all discussion is useless. That is the same whether ther is a standard or not.
The point of a standard isn't about why we repent, but identifying what it is we should repent of. If we can not come to an agreement on what is an acceptable lifestyle standard, then there is nothing to say the homosexual lifestyle is unacceptable. If we refer to Paul's writings, then Paul's writings become the written standard. A standard is that which we use to idenfy what has been agreed upon.
quote:
And it is the continued knowledge of God's kindness (expressed to us in Christ Jesus) that answers the 'why' for the struggling saint. "Because he loves me, that's why." This is the power of the Spirit-filled life, not the law. Paul says law is the power of sin! That's why we must rely on the message of grace rather than the message of the law to live as believers, pleasing to God.
Yes, it is Adonai's Spirit that empowers us to live a proper lifestyle. The "message of grace" speaks of salvation, forgiveness and empowerement, but it does not provide direction on what is and is not proper behavior. Those who support things like the homosexual lifestyle also claim to be living by the "message of grace" and how can we say they are not?
quote:
We love (fulfill the requirements of the law) "because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19), not because "it is written". Are you getting a picture of the standard by which we are to live day by day as believers now?
Yes, I have no problem with gratitude as a motivation. As I have said, we are not to obey just because "it is written". However, without an agreed upon standard that is more than just "love" or a "message of grace" how can we say things like homosexual behavior are not acceptable behaviors?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/20/2009 5:33:43 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
bluethread, this is so ridiculous I am finding it hard to grasp. You mentioned certain methodists that were saying homosexuality was okay. those particular methodists were the target group of your question to me and that is how I responded, about those particular methodist. Then you accuse me of holding all methodist responsible: where on earth did you see me say that?
I spoke of good methodists and those that support a homosexual lifestyle. You refered to methodists without qualification. I must not have made it clear that these are two different groups. This is how misunderstandings occur. This happens quite often in a discussion. All that is necessary is for one or the other to clarify. These things need not be taken personally. That was my point.
quote:
Did you read Titus2:11-14? That will help clarify the nature of how spirit works and why we do not follow the Torah anymore.
If you have not read the other supporting Scripture I have given you, we will continue to go around in circles.
I have responded to each of the passages you have presented with the interpretation that I believe Adonai's Spirit has given to me. If I am mistaken in this regard, you have been free to correct those interpretations. However, there has rarely been anything but silence in response to those interpretions.
However, I never tire of examining the Scriptures. So, let's look at this passage.
Titus 2:11-14 "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good."
First we have yet another for. What is it there for? The chapter beings with "You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine." This speaks of a standard. This is followed by a list of behaviors that are to be followed by various people in various situations. Looks like a written standard to me. Therefore, apart from saying that there is no standards apart from "love", this is saying that there is a standard that we can agree upon and we can use to help guide our lives.
Now, if you will acknowledge that there is indeed an agreed upon written standard that gives us an indication of what Adonai intends, then we can get back to discussing which standard is preferable. Until then, it doesn't matter if it is Moshe's standard, Paul's standard (as if they are different), agapist's standard or any other written standard, none of them can be used to indicate what is or is not an acceptable lifestyle.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/20/2009 5:41:02 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/20/2009 10:08:03 PM
|
|
|
agapist
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
bluethread, I did not refer to all methodists without qualification; I responded to your question to me about those specific methodist in question, the ones that support a homosexual lifestyle. It should have been easy enough to follow.
If I had responded sooner to that question, as if we were having a conversation, where you asked about those certain methodist and I said what I did in my post, you would not have been confused and jumped to that conclusion.
But just for the record, I did not mean all methodist; I was only addressing the question asked me about those methodist that support homosexuality.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/21/2009 2:49:05 AM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
bluethread, I did not refer to all methodists without qualification; I responded to your question to me about those specific methodist in question, the ones that support a homosexual lifestyle. It should have been easy enough to follow.
If I had responded sooner to that question, as if we were having a conversation, where you asked about those certain methodist and I said what I did in my post, you would not have been confused and jumped to that conclusion.
But just for the record, I did not mean all methodist; I was only addressing the question asked me about those methodist that support homosexuality.
Fine, shall we move on? It appears that it was implied that I had not responded to the passages that have been presented. I take no personal offense at this apparent implication. It is just rather confusing that once again I have presented an interpretation that I believe has been given to me by Adonai's Spirit and that interpretation has been ignored in preference for an opportunity to be personally offended. Do you or do you not agree with the interpretation I have presented? If not, why not?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/21/2009 6:43:05 AM
|
|
|
ChainSaw
Posts: 134
Joined: 10/17/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
The primacy of personal revelation over the law is that it is a revelation of God's forgiveness given us in Christ Jesus (the message of grace), not just a revelation of how wrong it is (the message of condemnation, the law). Simply knowing about the standard of the law against homosexual behavior is not in and of itself sufficient to answer the question of 'why' he should stop his behavior. God's love, as expressed to us in the life of Jesus Christ, is the 'why' the homosexual will repent of his lifestyle. The Bible is very, very clear about this. God's love is 'why' we change, not the law. This snippet of scripture tells us very plainly 'why' men repent...
"...God's kindness leads you toward repentance..." Romans 2:4
I agree that simple knowledge is not enough. Yes, this forum is a perfect example of how someone can repeat something over and over and the listener not accept what is being said. There must also be understanding. Now if this understanding is entirely a matter of personal revelation, all discussion is useless. That is the same whether ther is a standard or not.
The point of a standard isn't about why we repent, but identifying what it is we should repent of. If we can not come to an agreement on what is an acceptable lifestyle standard, then there is nothing to say the homosexual lifestyle is unacceptable. If we refer to Paul's writings, then Paul's writings become the written standard. A standard is that which we use to idenfy what has been agreed upon.
quote:
And it is the continued knowledge of God's kindness (expressed to us in Christ Jesus) that answers the 'why' for the struggling saint. "Because he loves me, that's why." This is the power of the Spirit-filled life, not the law. Paul says law is the power of sin! That's why we must rely on the message of grace rather than the message of the law to live as believers, pleasing to God.
Yes, it is Adonai's Spirit that empowers us to live a proper lifestyle. The "message of grace" speaks of salvation, forgiveness and empowerement, but it does not provide direction on what is and is not proper behavior. Those who support things like the homosexual lifestyle also claim to be living by the "message of grace" and how can we say they are not?
quote:
We love (fulfill the requirements of the law) "because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19), not because "it is written". Are you getting a picture of the standard by which we are to live day by day as believers now?
Yes, I have no problem with gratitude as a motivation. As I have said, we are not to obey just because "it is written". However, without an agreed upon standard that is more than just "love" or a "message of grace" how can we say things like homosexual behavior are not acceptable behaviors?
I'm not going to pretend this is easy to explain. And until a person can grasp the truth of what we're trying to share, I'm not going to say it's easy to understand either. But once you do see it, the reality of it is very apparent.
The first thing you have to do is get this idea out of your head that having the standard of grace as guiding priniciple means we can dismiss the law and that it's principles can now be broken. The point is, our goal is not to be purposely focused and concious of those principles, but rather focused on the higher goal of what those principles seek to accomplish.
This is about graduating up and away from the foundational and fundamental truths of the law the same way a musician graduates from the deliberate task of building chords according to the rules of music, under the supervision of his teacher, to actually making music. As he learns, his focus changes from the mechanics of music to the actual goal of his training--making music, though he never deviates very far from the years of foundational principles and rules of music he learned along the way.
Eventually he gives far less deliberate attention to those principles. The musician doesn't concentrate on the mechanics anymore. He let's the sounds he wants to make be his guiding force, with the rules of music being the unconscious foundation upon which he does that. When he was learning music the mechanics and theories and principles of music were his guiding force. Now his guiding force is to make pleasing music.
It's the same with this matter of being guided by law. Just as the musician moves from being guided by, and focused on the rules and mechanics of music and into the liberty of actually playing and enjoying music, so the saint moves from the schoolmaster and supervision of the law and into the liberty of his new guide, grace.
For both the musician and the saint the focus becomes the song he's playing, rarely being purposely concious of the rules and laws that the song follows. The musician deviates little from the actual theory and structure of music but his focus moves to actually making pleasing melodies and away from conscious thought about the rules the melody is built around. Likewise for the people of God. We were trained up as a child under the law, but now live as adults according to grace.
Big, big difference between being guided by the standard of law, and being guided by the standard of grace. One is simply building chords on a keyboard in a conscious effort to abide by the rules of music. The other is actually making music. The tune is the same, but the joy, the beauty, and the effectiveness of the latter is far more pleasing. To both the performer and the listener.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/21/2009 12:11:47 PM
|
|
|
Liveloved
Posts: 1816
Status: offline
|
Not easy at all, ChainSaw, but you've done an exquisite job! Wow, well said. The song continues. . . 
_____________________________
Liveloved
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/21/2009 12:57:06 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
I'm not going to pretend this is easy to explain. And until a person can grasp the truth of what we're trying to share, I'm not going to say it's easy to understand either. But once you do see it, the reality of it is very apparent.
Fine, important truths are not always easy to explain and understand. It is also a truism that everything is easier once you know how to do it. Continue.
quote:
The first thing you have to do is get this idea out of your head that having the standard of grace as guiding priniciple means we can dismiss the law and that it's principles can now be broken. The point is, our goal is not to be purposely focused and concious of those principles, but rather focused on the higher goal of what those principles seek to accomplish.
Your right, that is the impression I got. If you are not contesting that there are standards and principles, and that those are valuable in achieving our goal, I am more than willing to conceed that the goal is much more important than the standards and principles that get us there.
quote:
This is about graduating up and away from the foundational and fundamental truths of the law the same way a musician graduates from the deliberate task of building chords according to the rules of music, under the supervision of his teacher, to actually making music. As he learns, his focus changes from the mechanics of music to the actual goal of his training--making music, though he never deviates very far from the years of foundational principles and rules of music he learned along the way.
Eventually he gives far less deliberate attention to those principles. The musician doesn't concentrate on the mechanics anymore. He let's the sounds he wants to make be his guiding force, with the rules of music being the unconscious foundation upon which he does that. When he was learning music the mechanics and theories and principles of music were his guiding force. Now his guiding force is to make pleasing music.
Precisely and if I might shift the analogy a bit, one often hears sports coaches say, "We need to get back to the basics." Like a football player, a musician doesn't just sit down and play. Great musicians say the key to playing good music is practice, practice, practice. Even jazz musicians play their compositions the same way at performances. It is only in the jam sessions that they "break" the rules of following the standard composition.
quote:
It's the same with this matter of being guided by law. Just as the musician moves from being guided by, and focused on the rules and mechanics of music and into the liberty of actually playing and enjoying music, so the saint moves from the schoolmaster and supervision of the law and into the liberty of his new guide, grace.
Yes, this is true, but the accomplished musician never stops studying the nuances of those rules and mechanics. The mechanics of a new riff is the prime focus of the accomplished musician as he attempts to hone his skills and then incorporat that riff into his playing. In the same way, the mature child of Adonai examines His ways and finds new and different ways to weave innovative practices into one's lifestyle, without violating the fundamental principles.
quote:
For both the musician and the saint the focus becomes the song he's playing, rarely being purposely concious of the rules and laws that the song follows. The musician deviates little from the actual theory and structure of music but his focus moves to actually making pleasing melodies and away from conscious thought about the rules the melody is built around. Likewise for the people of God. We were trained up as a child under the law, but now live as adults according to grace.
Yes, that is true when one is playing a familiar tone. However, as I pointed out above, when one is learning great pains are taken to note klinkers and sqwaks. It is then that one examines the composition to determine where there has been an inappropriate deviation from the standards of music.
quote:
Big, big difference between being guided by the standard of law, and being guided by the standard of grace. One is simply building chords on a keyboard in a conscious effort to abide by the rules of music. The other is actually making music. The tune is the same, but the joy, the beauty, and the effectiveness of the latter is far more pleasing. To both the performer and the listener.
Yes, there is a big difference between composing music and simply playing it. The purpose of "the standard of the law of Moses" is not just to provide us with sheet music so we can perform before an audience or for our own enjoyment. Another part of "the standard of the law of Moses" is to provide the basis for each of us to use in composing our own songs and becoming more accomplished at playing what actors like to call our instrument.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/21/2009 1:07:32 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/21/2009 6:18:30 PM
|
|
|
Liveloved
Posts: 1816
Status: offline
|
quote:
Big, big difference between being guided by the standard of law, and being guided by the standard of grace. One is simply building chords on a keyboard in a conscious effort to abide by the rules of music. The other is actually making music. The tune is the same, but the joy, the beauty, and the effectiveness of the latter is far more pleasing. To both the performer and the listener.
The big difference is perhaps best shown by the Apostle Paul's life. Paul was good, in fact, he describes himself as blameless as to the righteousness which is in the Law. He had been guided well by the standard of the law.
But as he describes in Philippians 3, whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Some of 'those things' would have to include his own righteousness as derived from following the law.
And Paul continues more than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish in order that I may gain Christ,
and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
that I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Phil 3:8-11
It would appear that Paul is clearly saying that he had to lose the value of the righteousness he had gained through the Law, counting it as worthless (rubbish). It was an obstacle that had to be overcome because our hearts are deceitful. It is so easy to think we've done it. So not until that effort and accomplishment is totally surrendered, given up as worthless and no longer pursued, could Paul say it's all about knowing Christ.
It is nothing else but knowing Him. That's it. To gain Christ, Paul had to give up all else. Instead of gaining the righteousness by following the law, he gained Christ Who is righteousness.
One is natural man's attempt at righteousness. The other is spiritual man's surrender to the One Who is righteous.
The same tune? Perhaps but I really don't think so.
_____________________________
Liveloved
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/21/2009 7:40:46 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
Big, big difference between being guided by the standard of law, and being guided by the standard of grace. One is simply building chords on a keyboard in a conscious effort to abide by the rules of music. The other is actually making music. The tune is the same, but the joy, the beauty, and the effectiveness of the latter is far more pleasing. To both the performer and the listener.
The big difference is perhaps best shown by the Apostle Paul's life. Paul was good, in fact, he describes himself as blameless as to the righteousness which is in the Law. He had been guided well by the standard of the law.
But as he describes in Philippians 3, whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Some of 'those things' would have to include his own righteousness as derived from following the law.
And Paul continues more than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish in order that I may gain Christ,
and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
that I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Phil 3:8-11
It would appear that Paul is clearly saying that he had to lose the value of the righteousness he had gained through the Law, counting it as worthless (rubbish). It was an obstacle that had to be overcome because our hearts are deceitful. It is so easy to think we've done it. So not until that effort and accomplishment is totally surrendered, given up as worthless and no longer pursued, could Paul say it's all about knowing Christ.
It is nothing else but knowing Him. That's it. To gain Christ, Paul had to give up all else. Instead of gaining the righteousness by following the law, he gained Christ Who is righteousness.
One is natural man's attempt at righteousness. The other is spiritual man's surrender to the One Who is righteous.
The same tune? Perhaps but I really don't think so.
Now, you appear to be taking us back to the baby and bathwater argument that chainsaw said we are supposed to put out of our heads. Like any one else I love watching a good tag team match, but we either need to have some consistency in this discussion or seperate my discussion with chainsaw from my discussion with you. Therefore, tell me, do you beleive "the standard of the law of Moses" contains anything that is helpful in evaluating proper behavior?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/21/2009 7:46:56 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/21/2009 11:39:22 PM
|
|
|
agapist
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
There is a little town in the Southwest (which shall remain nameless) that I want to use as an illustration.
Walmart arrived at one end of town and five miles out of town a large mall was built. The effects on the shops at the center of town slowly took effect; in less than three years, three-quarter of the shops were out of business. The heart of this quaint little town was dying.
The Torah did not command a few concerned citizens to risk some of their capital to re-vitalize downtown. Encouraged, other shops began to open until three-quarter were now filled.
One shopowner, whose property had not been rented in nearly four years and was suffering financially, gave a lease to a tattoo parlor. The Torah did not forbid this simple business transaction. (This is not about whether tattoos violate OT ordinances.)
In a few months, the crowd drawn to the tattoo parlor began to have a detrimental effect on the other businesses. After a year with this "intruder," several shops had already closed and the rest were doing poorly.
The likeness of Christ is greater than the law. And the work of spirit to renew us in that image is greater than the law can perform.
Graces teaches us all things, more than what the law demands.
To paraphrase Calvin, Love is the most difficult thing we can do. Love would not have rented that store as a tattoo parlor, for it would have seen the big picture and would have been afraid.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/22/2009 12:02:24 AM
|
|
|
agapist
Posts: 659
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
How do we live free from sin? I think that this question helps us to focus the discussion.
Let me say this: Walking in spirit and living the likeness of Christ will not ever be contrary to God's law (The Torah). It will always demonstrate the goodness of the law.
The law shows us what a Christian life should look like. It shows how desperately we need Christ. It is a vital ministry of condemnation.
The hallmark of the New Covenant is death to self. It is no longer about our power and control over our righteousness. We can have "no boast."
Here are a few things the law cannot do: a) keep us in the favor with God; b) improve our moral qualities and build character; c) keep the flesh in submission; d) be part of our obligation to remain "saved" e) through our obedience of it please God.
It is that final point, keeping the law, obeying the Ten Commandments, where most of my attention has been directed. Obedience of the law puts us back under the law; it is death.
We do not live by obedience to standards but by faith in Christ; this is one of the major distinctions between the Covenants.
If it is something I do, I have strayed from grace, I have moved back under the law.
Being able to discern these differences is a matter of life and death to the soul.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the standard of the law of Moses - 10/22/2009 10:20:22 AM
|
|
|
ta_mosquito
Posts: 10982
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
Status: online
|
This has turned into a discussion about keeping the Law. Therefore, I'm closing it and redirecting to the one-stop on the topic.
Please continue your discussion there.
Here is the link:
CLICK HERE
Thank you!
Tricia
Forums Moderator
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
