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Competition - 10/3/2009 7:29:18 AM
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holymanna
Posts: 25
Joined: 6/4/2009
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I need some advice concerning a competitve spirit among people within the church. It seems like people within the church that I belong to are vying for leadership spots. If you observe them over time, it seems like they try to sabotage and keep down others that can do the job. It is like these positions are coveted. I was always under the impression that it was difficult to find leaders. These people seem to want to share as little info as possible. Reminds me of don't let your enemy know what your doing. Any one else experience this? If so, what did you do about it?Thank you for any input
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RE: Competition - 10/3/2009 9:21:21 AM
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Kat_D
Posts: 1394
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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Sounds like your worship at a major corporation not a church.
If what you say is true and the leadership has allowed this to go on unchecked, your church is fundamentally flawed...find another church.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Competition - 10/3/2009 10:42:31 PM
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psalm100
Posts: 476
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I have seen this type of competitive spirit only this time it was among choir members. There were several different choirs performing at a church function. They were all competing against each other. Whatever happened to allowing God to receive the glory and praise?
_____________________________
Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye now not what hour your Lord doth come.
my blog
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RE: Competition - 10/4/2009 11:31:39 PM
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Peloton
Posts: 200
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I herd it today on the tele...This is one of the reasons that revivals don't last in America. The body is not fitly joined together. Everyone wants to be the head, weather they are called and anointed to be the head or not. So man builds the house, God comes to visit, but he can't dwell there because He didn't make it.
What ever happened to service?
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RE: Competition - 10/5/2009 1:54:51 AM
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Chrio
Posts: 227
Joined: 6/25/2009
From: INLAND EMPIRE, CA.
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Greetings in Jesus
I Love what I am hearing from each reply ... God's Glory, Service & Servanthood ...
We are all servants in the Kingdom. How quickly we forget the phrase our hearts long to hear from our Savior is: "Well Done ... good and faithful servant" (emphasis mine) Not good and faithful preacher, singer, teacher, usher, deacon ... though each of those can be a servant in heart (attitude) but not all are. But in God's eyes it seems as though all are seen as servants first, if not completely.
I cannot say you should leave the church, but you should look for who has the servant mind-set and align yourself with their ministry. Add your servant's heart to theirs and see if God is using them & you to touch the heart of the church.
Faith sees what ain't so, to be so, til it's so!
_____________________________
Be A Blessing
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RE: Competition - 10/6/2009 4:07:35 PM
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holymanna
Posts: 25
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Thank you all very much for your information. It was comforting to read all your responses.Your responses let me know that this is not only happening her. Be lessed
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RE: Competition - 10/13/2009 3:13:55 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1524
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If only the fruit of the Spirit was as highly a competitive field as the gifts of the Spirit. But wait......fruit trees need pruning and that hurts.
Scripture being true, gifts are still distributed as per the oversight of the Holy Spirit. That, is not competitive and yes I have seen what you describe.
I think some people have their reward in the acclaim they receive from others. I also think many people are fulfilling their own fantasy of being a worship leader, soloist, Bible teacher what have you. And the phrase that catches my ears quickly is:
"God told me......fill in the blank." I mean who is going to argue with that.....well actually, that is one of the most overused and incorrect things a person could say. If I understand NT teaching at all with regards to receiving instruction from God (after of course everyone has studied God's word and is prepared to define deception and false teaching) it should be by 2s and 3s and not just one person. The office of OT prophet no longer exisits...but you wouldn't know that to hear alot of so called messages in church these days.
End of rant
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RE: Competition - 10/14/2009 8:17:54 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3812
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: holymanna
It seems like people within the church that I belong to are vying for leadership spots. If you observe them over time, it seems like they try to sabotage and keep down others that can do the job. It is like these positions are coveted. Charles Simpson (a SBC pastor) once described this as "crabology" after watching a crabber on the Gulf coast as a kid. He took a large galvanized wash tub and a piece of plywood with his shovel. When the tide went out, he dug up the first crab, put it in the tub and covered it with the plywood. When he got the 2nd crab, he lifted the plywood, threw the crab in the tub and removed the plywood. Even when he had a couple of dozen crabs in the tub, he used no covering. When the young Simpson asked him why, he explained that he could fill that tub almost to the brim and none would escape. when one tries to climb out (easily done by a single crab) the others would grab him and pull him back down.
Over the decades of ministry, Simpson observed the exact same dynamic in congregations.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Competition - 10/14/2009 11:10:27 AM
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BelleWeather
Posts: 725
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: New York City
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: holymanna
It seems like people within the church that I belong to are vying for leadership spots. If you observe them over time, it seems like they try to sabotage and keep down others that can do the job. It is like these positions are coveted. Charles Simpson (a SBC pastor) once described this as "crabology" after watching a crabber on the Gulf coast as a kid. He took a large galvanized wash tub and a piece of plywood with his shovel. When the tide went out, he dug up the first crab, put it in the tub and covered it with the plywood. When he got the 2nd crab, he lifted the plywood, threw the crab in the tub and removed the plywood. Even when he had a couple of dozen crabs in the tub, he used no covering. When the young Simpson asked him why, he explained that he could fill that tub almost to the brim and none would escape. when one tries to climb out (easily done by a single crab) the others would grab him and pull him back down.
Over the decades of ministry, Simpson observed the exact same dynamic in congregations.
Fascinating observation. Thanks for sharing DaveW.
_____________________________
We think we fathom the depths
when we are just skimming the surface with our finger.
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RE: Competition - 10/14/2009 12:01:00 PM
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kcgodlyman
Posts: 42
Joined: 7/1/2009
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: holymanna
It seems like people within the church that I belong to are vying for leadership spots. If you observe them over time, it seems like they try to sabotage and keep down others that can do the job. It is like these positions are coveted.
Charles Simpson (a SBC pastor) once described this as "crabology" after watching a crabber on the Gulf coast as a kid. He took a large galvanized wash tub and a piece of plywood with his shovel. When the tide went out, he dug up the first crab, put it in the tub and covered it with the plywood. When he got the 2nd crab, he lifted the plywood, threw the crab in the tub and removed the plywood. Even when he had a couple of dozen crabs in the tub, he used no covering. When the young Simpson asked him why, he explained that he could fill that tub almost to the brim and none would escape. when one tries to climb out (easily done by a single crab) the others would grab him and pull him back down.
Over the decades of ministry, Simpson observed the exact same dynamic in congregations.
Over the years I have been disgusted at this type of behavior in the workplace, but in a church it is even more reprehensible. This behavior, either secular or church related, is so counter productive and ends up eating up valuable time, energy and assets. When I have observed this behavior in groups I lead, be it at work or at church, I immediately call the person on their behavior and explain to them that it will not be tolerated. They get only one warning and if it continues I calmly and politely tell them they are no longer needed or wanted as a part of the group. It is my personal belief that often times the person is not cognizant of their behavior. It seems to be either something internal to their nature, or possibly something guided by a hostile entity in spiritual warfare. Either way, once warned and made aware that the behavior has been noted and will not be tolerated, they are expected to change their ways or move on. This may seem harsh, but it helps to maintain healthy relationships within the group, and helps to keep activities focused and productive. We would like to think that we Christians are above such petty behavior, but we are as weak as the unsaved and just as vulnerable to sin. It is how we deal with the sin when it is pointed out to us that determines the strength of our convictions and character.
_____________________________
A true friend is hard to find, but even harder to lose!
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RE: Competition - 10/14/2009 12:10:45 PM
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kcgodlyman
Posts: 42
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
I think some people have their reward in the acclaim they receive from others. I also think many people are fulfilling their own fantasy of being a worship leader, soloist, Bible teacher what have you.
We discussed this very topic last night in a small home study I lead. We are reading the book "The Jesus of Suburbia" by Mike Erre and the chapter concerned true conversion and a faith in Christ, not in rituals, traditions or other trappings of Christianity. We discussed the fact that we focus on a relationship with Christ and that when that relationship is producing fruit then there will be actions in our life that stem from love and a desire to serve our Lord. Early in my walk with Christ I was an usher in our church simply because it gave me a lot of "face time" and it did not require a large time commitment on my part. For a number of years all of my services were along those lines and I am sure I had my reward here on earth for my service. It was only as I matured and fell deeply in love with my Lord that my service was more meaningful and stemmed from a heart so full of love that I had no choice but to serve. I now find myself serving in capacities I never imagined. I lead a small group and I teach and I counsel people. Never would I have imagined myself in these positions, but they are where the Lord placed me. My encouragement to people who talk to me about wanting to serve is for them to allow the Lord to choose where they will serve. The opportunities will arise and they will spark a passion within them that can not be denied. Then they will know they are in the center of God's will.
_____________________________
A true friend is hard to find, but even harder to lose!
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RE: Competition - 10/14/2009 10:04:05 PM
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singpeace
Posts: 81
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Well, here's my two cents:
Go check out a video on tangle.com called "Satan's Meeting". It caught my breath more than once as it revealed the layers of satan's strategy to systematically pull us away from our First Love.
_____________________________
Psalm 123:1 Unto You do I lift up my eyes, O You Who are enthroned in heaven.
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RE: Competition - 10/15/2009 3:56:01 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1524
Joined: 6/16/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: holymanna
It seems like people within the church that I belong to are vying for leadership spots. If you observe them over time, it seems like they try to sabotage and keep down others that can do the job. It is like these positions are coveted. Charles Simpson (a SBC pastor) once described this as "crabology" after watching a crabber on the Gulf coast as a kid. He took a large galvanized wash tub and a piece of plywood with his shovel. When the tide went out, he dug up the first crab, put it in the tub and covered it with the plywood. When he got the 2nd crab, he lifted the plywood, threw the crab in the tub and removed the plywood. Even when he had a couple of dozen crabs in the tub, he used no covering. When the young Simpson asked him why, he explained that he could fill that tub almost to the brim and none would escape. when one tries to climb out (easily done by a single crab) the others would grab him and pull him back down.
Over the decades of ministry, Simpson observed the exact same dynamic in congregations.
Woah! Scary......and strangely familar............
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RE: Competition - 10/15/2009 3:59:49 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1524
Joined: 6/16/2008
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quote:
We discussed this very topic last night in a small home study I lead. We are reading the book "The Jesus of Suburbia" by Mike Erre and the chapter concerned true conversion and a faith in Christ, not in rituals, traditions or other trappings of Christianity. We discussed the fact that we focus on a relationship with Christ and that when that relationship is producing fruit then there will be actions in our life that stem from love and a desire to serve our Lord. Early in my walk with Christ I was an usher in our church simply because it gave me a lot of "face time" and it did not require a large time commitment on my part. For a number of years all of my services were along those lines and I am sure I had my reward here on earth for my service. It was only as I matured and fell deeply in love with my Lord that my service was more meaningful and stemmed from a heart so full of love that I had no choice but to serve. I now find myself serving in capacities I never imagined. I lead a small group and I teach and I counsel people. Never would I have imagined myself in these positions, but they are where the Lord placed me. My encouragement to people who talk to me about wanting to serve is for them to allow the Lord to choose where they will serve. The opportunities will arise and they will spark a passion within them that can not be denied. Then they will know they are in the center of God's will.
What's that verse in Psalms? I would rather be a doorkeeper in the Lord's house? I thought of that reading your post.......frankly, I would be afraid to say 'God said or God told me" the way some throw that around. It's like 2nd nature to them....in my experience, you become a target for alot of people when you are in certain postions. And that of course is the opposite of what should be............
Ah well......the best is just being in the presence of the Lord and that is what I try to share.
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RE: Competition - 10/16/2009 6:27:26 AM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1782
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quote:
..frankly, I would be afraid to say 'God said or God told me" the way some throw that around. It's like 2nd nature to them...
Probably because it is 2nd nature. "My sheep will hear my voice". If a person doesn't hear from God, they aren't listening.
To say that God doesn't talk to people is wrong and not backed up by scripture. When He speaks, it will be confirmed by scripture.
I realize that it is an abused statement by some, however, that can not be the sole basis to dismiss God talking with His children.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Competition - 10/16/2009 10:13:29 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 1524
Joined: 6/16/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
..frankly, I would be afraid to say 'God said or God told me" the way some throw that around. It's like 2nd nature to them...
Probably because it is 2nd nature. "My sheep will hear my voice". If a person doesn't hear from God, they aren't listening.
To say that God doesn't talk to people is wrong and not backed up by scripture. When He speaks, it will be confirmed by scripture.
I realize that it is an abused statement by some, however, that can not be the sole basis to dismiss God talking with His children.
I don't think I was that unclear in what I wrote. You have done a neat job of twisting my words.
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RE: Competition - 10/16/2009 11:47:34 AM
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jhuperetes
Posts: 473
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I truly believe God does talk to us.
I know a man whose ex-wife was told by God that she was raped by the husband.
Then, a few months later, God told her, husband raped their children, had affairs in their long marriage and was visiting prostitutes.
God also told her that she needed to explain this in minutiae to his work, friends, church and family.
Fortunately for him, he was deployed when things supposed to have happened. Turns out she was a low functioning BPD. If her fantasy/nightmare does not fit reality, she would fabricate it, then forget about the fabrication.
But, the church believed her for a long time and chastised and excoriated that man. He spent enormous amount of money to defend himself in courts time after time. Now the kids are with him, and she is in special care. But, he is a shell of a man, of what he was...
Of course, not everyone who claims God told them something go to such extremes.
"Some", dear solarflare, is a serious understatement how often Christians use "God told me so" to manipulate others.
I believe most of the time that statement is heard, it is manipulation.
Still, I truly believe God does talk to us.
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RE: Competition - 10/16/2009 1:33:22 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1524
Joined: 6/16/2008
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quote:
Still, I truly believe God does talk to us.
I also believe that. I am glad you saw I was not stating that I do not believe He does speak to us.
I wll state that I believe we need to 'hear' Him in the written word first. If we know the written word,
there will be far less chance of deception.
Anyhows.......this is way off topic, but thanks
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RE: Competition - 10/17/2009 2:21:11 PM
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kcgodlyman
Posts: 42
Joined: 7/1/2009
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quote:
frankly, I would be afraid to say 'God said or God told me" the way some throw that around. It's like 2nd nature to them....in my experience, you become a target for alot of people when you are in certain post-ions. And that of course is the opposite of what should be..
I am not sure why my posting was associated with this statement solarflare, I never said that God told me to do what I do. I was lead to the positions I hold through prayer, study of the Word, and guidance from my pastors who watched and worked with me for 4 years before I entered into my current ministries. God did not "speak" to me in the manner you implied, He spoke to me in the still small voice that motivates us to His will. He affirms my service by blessing it and leading people to join with me. He has guided me to where I am today by opening doors and closing others. When I responded to your earlier statement
"I think some people have their reward in the acclaim they receive from others. I also think many people are fulfilling their own fantasy of being a worship leader, soloist, Bible teacher what have you."
I intended to affirm your statement. We discussed in my group how sad it is when people get involved in the wrong ministry because of pride and the need to look to the Holy Spirit for guidance when we decide it is time to serve. Perhaps I misunderstood your statement, though it seems pretty straightforward to me.
_____________________________
A true friend is hard to find, but even harder to lose!
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RE: Competition - 10/18/2009 12:31:36 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1524
Joined: 6/16/2008
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quote:
I am not sure why my posting was associated with this statement solarflare, I never said that God told me to do what I do.
Oh dear. Your post is not associated with regards to my statements...I was simply describing how some people get into illegitimate postions that they should not be holding as God never called them to it. I was actually confirming what you wrote.
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RE: Competition - 10/19/2009 2:46:39 PM
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kcgodlyman
Posts: 42
Joined: 7/1/2009
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I understand and agree with you wholeheartedly. I really appreciate your point of view and agree that it is a shame when people are in ministries for which they are not suited.
_____________________________
A true friend is hard to find, but even harder to lose!
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