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As a congregant to leaders... - 10/4/2009 2:52:51 PM
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Lea_3
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I'm not a spiritual leader in any way (being a woman for one), but as a congregant, and having attended many different churches and regularly attend one now, I have to say that I feel spiritual leadership is watery.
Why don't leaders address issues in a Biblical manner anymore? It's so frustrating and disheartening to find out for one, that your church has accepted the fact that two people who are gay can have sex and still lead a church! How did this happen?
I've also been to retreats where people there have talked about very questionable behavior that you would not expect from Christians-- such as cohabiting before marriage, having sex before marriage, lascivious behavior, drug use, etc. and yet noone addresses these things! People turn a blind eye for fear of "judging" when the Bible calls us to rebuke!
I don't want to come off as a Bible-thumping fundamentalist who looks down on everyone, but the Bible does tell us what Christian behavior is and isn't, and to not associate ourselves with the appearance of evil.
One of the things I learned about being Christian is that we as Christians often make excuses to do what we want, and our leadership allows us to get away with it. This summer I went on a missions trip to Asia and well...what Christians there think of us over here ain't so hot  You see, we often go overseas thinking that we are bringing better values and morals to people who need to be saved, but the truth is we also bring immorality there as well. I interacted with people there who really, really looked down on missionaries because we often think that we're better but bring thing over like dating, premarital sex, partying, etc. I was able to talk to other Indians (I was in India) who lived there working with our ministry who said that many Indian parents there are very wary of having their families become Christian (even though feel compelled) because they believe that their children will lose their values and have no morals. I was often met with surprise when people there found out I was Christian and traditional AND Indian. I find it sad that Christianity is looked down on so much for the thing we are teaching against.
I've also talked to lots of other people who tell me that at their churches, it's obvious that there are people there living in a way that is not Christian yet noone does anything because it's probably "not that big of a deal". One girl told me how she goes to a Pentecostal church (one that is more conservative) and there are couples who go there who live together before marriage and don't have any plans of getting married yet noone does anything. I even talked to a guy earlier this month at our university's intervarsity Christian fellowship group who told me back in his hometown, there are churchgoers who get abortions and noone bothers to talk them out of it because they feel it would be judgmental.
When I go to church and a pastor is alerted that I am engaging in something that is wrong-- isn't it their job to correct me, guide me, pray for me, and help me get back on the right path? Isn't it their job to do that for everyone who is Christian? Why are church leaders not stepping up to the plate? Sure we may not like to hear it, but that is what we need...often a child does not like to hear their parents lecture, but that is what they need to succeed and stay on the right path.
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RE: As a congregant to leaders... - 10/5/2009 9:58:34 AM
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jn1010lf
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Hello lea84
I don't see much of a problem here in your decision as to what to do. Leave! Find a church that teaches the Word right out of the Bible.
What you see, in my opinion, is apostasy that the scriptures say will come. Many will fall away from the faith. But there are many that truly believe. Go find them.
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RE: As a congregant to leaders... - 10/6/2009 10:33:01 AM
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Lea_3
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How many churches do I have to leave before that happens? Isn't leaving much more easier than demanding integrity and leadership from ministry? That's what I believe. It's been too long that I see pastors turn a blind eye to questionable things or don't take a position because they don't want to "judge". It's high time they start stepping up to the plate. Do you know how many different churches I've been to since becoming Christian? TOO MANY. I am of the belief that ministry leaders need to teach what is Biblical and as a congregant, should see that reflected.
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RE: As a congregant to leaders... - 10/6/2009 1:38:43 PM
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mysteryofgospel
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There are very few good churches.
Churches are in the business of being a church. Look good, feel good, sing well. Whitewashed tombs filled with dead men's bones.
Most of the tithing is spent on maintaining that church instead of aiding people who need it. They really are just money changers.
Most people think they are holy because they attend a church and have a pot luck. They smile, pat each other on the back and then leave to see what mischief they can get into.
The first few chapters of the book of Revelation was written to the churches because they needed the warnings of what they could and would become.
God has opened your eyes to see it. We are all doomed, there is none righteous.
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RE: As a congregant to leaders... - 10/6/2009 6:43:47 PM
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kcgodlyman
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I serve as a leader to a small group meeting in a friend's home. The first series I taught was Revelation and the several chapters lay out what a church should, and should not be and my family lives by these guidelines. When we chose our current church we carefully read their belief statement and then attended for a couple of months before committing ourselves. Perhaps you have chosen too quickly? It can be very disheartening when church leadership fails to meet our expectations, but we must remember that it is Christ who we are called to look to and rely upon. Man will always fail to satisfy, but our Lord will never fail you! Be assured that there is a church out there that teaches the bible and holds their members accountable, in fact there are many, but it takes time and effort to find them unfortunately. I wish you the best of luck in your search and in the mean time encourage you to hold tight to Christ and do a little homework.
Blessings upon you!
_____________________________
A true friend is hard to find, but even harder to lose!
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RE: As a congregant to leaders... - 10/7/2009 12:23:30 AM
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Lea_3
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Before I decide to even attend a church, I look at their website. In fact, I even look at their statement of beliefs, their mission statement, etc. I look at what kinds of groups they have. I have come across some churches where they "seemed" okay but then when I dug a little deeper, turns out they turn a blind eye to cohabiting couples outside of marriage, yet "preach" the sanctity of marriage. I've come across churches where they believe that men can run around and do whatever they want (literally) and yet women have to sit tight and be good and we wonder why premarital sex is rampant? Not an offense towards men, but a critique on that church.
I have come across churches where sometimes, I wonder what it is that they do believe. Apparently, Jesus' death was "symbolic" and more of the Bible is figurative than literal...which we all know that isn't true.
I've decided to leave the ELCA. Been deciding to do that for a while since I can't stand having women pastors as I really believe the gift of leading is better with men. I believe women can lead in other areas that are directed to women for instance (I've had the privilege of seeing great Christian women speakers), but there's something about a woman presiding over a marriage ceremony that doesn't quite sit well with me. But it's been alot worse than that.
I sometimes feel like more Christian churches are about being "seeker" churches than Christian. It doesn't seem to matter what denomination I go to-- this is a problem I see across all denominations to be honest-- I've been to various Lutheran churches, nondenominational, Charismatic, Baptist, Pentecostal, and I see the same problems echoed over and over.
What really gets me the most of how I see pastors preaching about morality yet don't demand it in person from people who they can see in plain sight not acting in accordance with the Bible's teachings on morality. I think to myself sometimes...after seeing how our leaders don't want to lead, is living a Christian life even worth it?
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RE: As a congregant to leaders... - 10/7/2009 10:56:01 AM
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mysteryofgospel
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Lea,
It is a fine line that we walk in Christ. If we are to have grace, then how can we demand? I just spoke this past Sunday on what it means to go and learn this, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice.", from Matthew 12:7 and Luke 6:27-38. People were saying how good the service was, yada, yada, yada and then watched later as
two argued about who was right about some meaningless issue.
Been preaching off and on about a lazy man in church who will not lift a finger to work but knows scripture backwards and forwards. He is clueless to his personal state but consider himself a truly and just holy man talking about keeping the 10 commandments and not working on the sabbath. I've been meaning to ask him, what about the part where the commandment says you will work six days?
The Holy Spirit has given you insight to perceive that their actions don't match their words. It is a great gift the Christ wants us to all have, to be able to perceive and not just see, to be able to listen and not just hear. Take this perception one step further and perceive what you do as a Christian. Does it match your words?
Is this what the church needs, a good tongue lashing? A tyrant?
Jude talks about all this apostasy in his one page letter and his conclusion in v, 20-22 wasn't a tongue lashing but this,
"But you beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. (4 things we do)
And on some having compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them from the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.
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RE: As a congregant to leaders... - 10/7/2009 12:12:52 PM
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kcgodlyman
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quote:
I sometimes feel like more Christian churches are about being "seeker" churches than Christian. It doesn't seem to matter what denomination I go to-- this is a problem I see across all denominations to be honest-- I've been to various Lutheran churches, nondenominational, Charismatic, Baptist, Pentecostal, and I see the same problems echoed over and over.
Sadly, I have yet to discover a denomination as a whole that avoids Apostasy. Just don't give up on those individual churches that are out there holding a firm line. However, I would also encourage you to avoid legalism. I too am uncomfortable with a woman presiding over a marriage and prefer a church led by a man, but I have also been in a small home church with a woman teaching and her teaching was impeccable. Come to think of it, perhaps a small arena would suit your needs. It is much easier to have accountability in a smaller group and there is a whole lot less politics involved as typically there isn't anything to be political about. You are simply meeting for worship, edification and fellowship, without any of the trappings that tend to get in the way in some churches. Just a thought from this humble servant.
_____________________________
A true friend is hard to find, but even harder to lose!
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RE: As a congregant to leaders... - 10/7/2009 9:19:42 PM
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Lea_3
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I don't think churches need a tongue-lashing. I never implied that fire and brimstone needed to be hailed down. Do you know how many ELCA churches for instance, put out letters to the congregation stating that they aren't going to "take a side" with the homosexuality issue within the ELCA church? How is that owning up to leadership. Kc, thanks for the input. I have actually been looking into an ELCA church that is part of the Lutheran CORE that follows the teachings of the Bible regarding homosexuality. I don't hate homosexuals! The Bible says that homosexual acts are not right.
I believe in compassion. But there comes a point where compassion and justice need to have a proper balance. When will leaders start to preach from the Bible in a just fashion, not just compassionately?
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RE: As a congregant to leaders... - 10/7/2009 9:37:11 PM
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still4gvn
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I think Missouri Synod is a more conservative Lutheran group.
I see the same problems in a lot of churches. BTW, are you sure the people living in sin are members? Most meetings are open to anyone - Christian or not - which can be confusing. One can't discipline a visitor although they should certainly be confronted and counseled.
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RE: As a congregant to leaders... - 10/9/2009 12:24:00 PM
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Lea_3
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Yes, I am sure they are members, because I for one have had lots of conversations with these women. What's funny though in this couples living in sin, it's always the girlfriend who is huge into going to church and the boyfriends are either atheists or backslid Christians. One girl I've had lengthy conversations with-- happened to be a very nice girl-- told me how she felt that she and her boyfriend were "close enough" to being married and had actually been upset when she wasn't allowed to join the marriage group for young adults at the church.
What really got me about my last church was how I found out from couples I was acquainted with that the counselors they saw advised them to separate or get a divorce. One couple in particular who I met did separate and it was a really awful strain on their relationship. I ran into the husband at the library and he told me how they've reconciled and decided to leave the ELCA because they couldn't believe they allowed one person's liberal view almost destroy their marriage. They've since joined a Baptist church and seek counseling with a more conservative therapist (referred to them by the church) and are working on their marriage. I can't believe my old church would condone such things.
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RE: As a congregant to leaders... - 10/12/2009 2:43:39 PM
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buckifn
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I never give counsel unless I have Scriptures to back it up.
The only thing I can say to you is speak up yourself when you know something is sin even if nobody in leadership around you speaks out.
We are ALL accountable, not just the leader's....I know one hopes to have leader's who actually lead when it comes to these matters, but we now live in a day when evil is called good and good is called evil. Your voice of truth may be the only one they hear.
I cannot enforce my beliefs on anyone, but I can let them know what God's word says about it.
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RE: As a congregant to leaders... - 10/12/2009 6:18:46 PM
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Lea_3
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That's the thing buckifn...noone says anything about God's word at all. Things just slide and never get addressed.
When I do speak up, I either lose friends or am called a "fundie". Yes I will admit, much of my beliefs are fundamentalist...but I look at the Bible. I'm not going to argue with what is expected of us. It's hard yes, but it makes it even harder for the struggling Christian out there when noone bothers to speak up, and then the people who are engaging in questionable lifestyles think that everything is A-OK.
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RE: As a congregant to leaders... - 10/12/2009 9:31:01 PM
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buckifn
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lea
I understand what you are saying. It is in those times we really have to apply the Word to our own lives and "not be weary in well doing". A lot of times there is no encouragement to do the right thing our encouragement has to come through God's Word for ourselves.
In His time we will reap if we don't faint. We know that things are not going to go unchecked forever. God is going to shake all that can be shaken.
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RE: As a congregant to leaders... - 10/13/2009 10:32:47 AM
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seagullplayer
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A word of caution for a sister that means well;
Seeing sin as anything other than sin is wrong.
Allowing the unqualified to lead is wrong.
Banishing sinners from the pew…
As a Pastor I am thankful that conviction comes not from my pointy finger but from the very Truth of God’s Word.
I am thankful that a young couple expecting their first child that started attending in December where convicted by something in a sermon and called and asked if I would marry them a week before Valentines Day, they no longer wanted to live in sin. They both now claim the Lord as their Savior; we will dedicate the baby this Sunday Morning.
Perhaps I should have meet with them the first week and told them if they wanted to continue to attend OUR church (we do not have membership) that they needed to get their lives cleaned up first?
They might have had a hard time understanding how their sitting on a church pew in Indiana would make a missionary in India look bad, I am kind of working that over myself.
Maybe I should pass out “believer” “non-believer” name tags at the start of service, just so we know where we all stand?
Would we have made them board members or Sunday school teachers? Of course not, they where like we all where, sinners in need of Jesus. I would hope one of the best places to find Him is on a Church pew.
_____________________________
The world has only one problem, sin.
There is only one solution, Jesus.
Seems a lot of people watch evangelist on TV and call it going to church.
My kids use to play Mario Cart and think they where driving…
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RE: As a congregant to leaders... - 10/15/2009 1:44:58 AM
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singpeace
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I'll share what I know. Then what the Word says about some of your concerns.
I hope it is helpful in some way.
First, I know from experience that there are wolves in sheep’s clothing in our churches. There are those who prey on unsuspecting members of the body. They use the kindness of Christians to intimidate others and gain power for personal gain. Some are just pretending to be Christians and deceive whole congregations. So in that light, your point is valid. These are dangerous Pharisees an either need to repent or be shown the door.
However; after being in ministry for years, I have come to know that, even though I live as clean a Christian-life as I can, I am just as wretched today as I was when I was lost and living in sin... but for the blood of Christ.
There are lots of non-Christians who are honest, and kind. And there are non-Christians who are murderers. Both are bound for hell if they never receive Christ Jesus as Lord.
The Apostle Paul speaks of his own battles with sin... he was a man like any other man... ‘no telling what his sins might have been....
In Romans 7 (KJV) Paul writes:
14 We know that the law is spiritual, but I am not spiritual since sin rules me as if I were its slave.15 I do not understand the things I do. I do not do what I want to do, and I do the things I hate.16 And if I do not want to do the hated things I do, that means I agree that the law is good.17 But I am not really the one who is doing these hated things; it is sin living in me that does them.18 Yes, I know that nothing good lives in me—I mean nothing good lives in the part of me that is earthly and sinful. I want to do the things that are good, but I do not do them.19 I do not do the good things I want to do, but I do the bad things I do not want to do.20 So if I do things I do not want to do, then I am not the one doing them. It is sin living in me that does those things. 21 So I have learned this rule: When I want to do good, evil is there with me.22 In my mind, I am happy with God's law.23 But I see another law working in my body, which makes war against the law that my mind accepts. That other law working in my body is the law of sin, and it makes me its prisoner.24 What a miserable man I am! Who will save me from this body that brings me death?25 I thank God for saving me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So in my mind I am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful self I am a slave to the law of sin.
So, there are 69 different abominations listed in the Bible, and among these are lying, a nasty or haughty look, a prideful heart, fudging on income or the buying or selling of goods, gossip, adultery, fornication, and homosexuality.'Sounds like some of our pastors, Sunday school teachers, worship leaders, etc.
So someone who has not yet overcome all their battles with sin and bondage but is making an effort; coming to hear God’s Word, or help someone else where they can, is not someone I want the Father to see me turning out or condemning. He tells me that I am to love them and show them the same mercy Christ has shown me. Because just as soon as I use my own pride to judge a brother or sister, I’m gonna make a mistake myself the next day and have to repent of something.
I am not trying to be argumentative, or seem cross.
We don’t overcome sin and bondages so that we can say we are cleaner or better than someone else. We overcome so that we can have joy and peace and make ourselves able to equip the younger ones who come along to be disciples and win souls.
Leadership in the body requires us to work harder at not making mistakes. But if we do stumble, it’s a perfect opportunity for younger Christians to see how we handle it as a mature Christian. They follow our lead and we are all a bit stronger.
The house of God should be a hospital, and a safe place for those who feel helpless. If I made someone feel dirty by calling out their sin to them, you can bet I’ll be asking forgiveness the next day when I mess up, too. What if that person is so hurt, they leave? Now where are they on Sunday? At home, angry.
The church building isn’t a social club for elite Christians. There is no such thing as an elite Christian. We’re nothing if we don’t have the blood of Christ. God uses our weaknesses to show forth his glory so that no man may boast.
Which is the better Christian: the one still overcoming things in his early walk as a Christian, whose weaknesses can be seen by all; who is living with his fiance or girlfriend; or the man who has been an esteemed Pastor for 30 years, yet, secretly looks at porn? Don’t be deceived. Many Christians in leadership have just learned to hide their faults and sins. You have no idea what they do behind closed doors. Does not seeing their sin mean they don’t sin?
_____________________________
Psalm 123:1 Unto You do I lift up my eyes, O You Who are enthroned in heaven.
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RE: As a congregant to leaders... - 10/15/2009 2:07:24 PM
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kcgodlyman
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quote:
We don’t overcome sin and bondages so that we can say we are cleaner or better than someone else. We overcome so that we can have joy and peace and make ourselves able to equip the younger ones who come along to be disciples and win souls.
Leadership in the body requires us to work harder at not making mistakes. But if we do stumble, it’s a perfect opportunity for younger Christians to see how we handle it as a mature Christian. They follow our lead and we are all a bit stronger.
The house of God should be a hospital, and a safe place for those who feel helpless. If I made someone feel dirty by calling out their sin to them, you can bet I’ll be asking forgiveness the next day when I mess up, too. What if that person is so hurt, they leave? Now where are they on Sunday? At home, angry.
The church building isn’t a social club for elite Christians. There is no such thing as an elite Christian. We’re nothing if we don’t have the blood of Christ. God uses our weaknesses to show forth his glory so that no man may boast.
Which is the better Christian: the one still overcoming things in his early walk as a Christian, whose weaknesses can be seen by all; who is living with his fiance or girlfriend; or the man who has been an esteemed Pastor for 30 years, yet, secretly looks at porn? Don’t be deceived. Many Christians in leadership have just learned to hide their faults and sins. You have no idea what they do behind closed doors. Does not seeing their sin mean they don’t sin?
I could not agree with you more! The church is OUR church, we are the church and when we point fingers and find fault then we all equally share the blame. I love where we attend, but I would never claim it is the perfect church; it has its flaws as any other human organization will. My approach to everyone is one of love these days. I have been forgiven so much in my lifetime, who am I to withhold forgiveness from anyone. Now, if they ask forgiveness and continue the behavior, then I will go to them in love and try to get them to repent and change, but I do not go to them in judgment as that is solely for the Lord. Do I get frustrated at times? Of course I do for I am still human and as such a sinner. I just turn the frustration into loving prayer for the source of my frustration and for patience in myself. If it appears that leadership is overly accepting try looking at it from their perspective. Jesus came to heal sinners. If we drive out the sinners in our congregation then we will be preaching to an empty house. Where do you draw the line? That requires judging people in a manner that is reserved for our Lord. Which sins are acceptable and which require immediate expulsion? All sin is an abomination, so how do you choose? If I know for a fact that a person is a member of my congregation and I have proof positive that they are living with a serious sin, then I am obligated to speak to them about it. If that fails, I go to them with an elder in tow. If that fails, it goes before the whole church. Not a pleasant task, and thankfully one that is seldom used, but it is there for a purpose. It is there to help the member repent and return to the fold for love and support. It is NOT intended to persecute, condemn or vilify the person.
_____________________________
A true friend is hard to find, but even harder to lose!
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RE: As a congregant to leaders... - 10/15/2009 11:23:59 PM
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Lea_3
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I think some people here are getting the wrong idea of what I am trying to say.
I am not referring to people who have "just" become members of a church or are looking and you don't really know them. I am talking about people who have been going to church for "x" amount of months and make it fully known to everyone what it is that they are doing. For instance, the girl I referred to earlier has been a member of my church since spring and has made it known from the start that she and her atheist boyfriend live together. She was upset because in her mind, she felt equally qualified to be a member of the married women's group. When the group president and co-president made a decision to not allow her to join the group, she became upset. This was not dishfellowship-- she simply wasn't allowed to join the married group because she is NOT married. Just as I am not married, how can I expect to join the group? Yet she was surprised even though she has been introducing her boyfriend as the person she lives with, she has told me on a few occasions that they are both sleeping together, along with other women in the young women's group.
The young women's group leaders know about this yet noone has bothered to approach her. There was even a woman there who decided not to join the group because she was did not like how there was someone there openly talking about her premarital sex life and she didn't want to be affiliated with that. Considering the fact that this church is an ELCA, who knows what else they will let slip by considering the fact that they've fallen to the homosexual agenda.
Here is an example of what I think should happen: I have a friend who before she and her husband were married, were having premarital sex. It got to the point where both sets of parents told them they needed to get married NOW and stop sinning, or expect no help with their wedding. Needless to say, they got married a lot sooner than was expected, stopped having sex, and sough premarital counseling with the pastor who married them every week until the wedding. The parents stepped in, and then the pastor stepped in after he was informed of their behavior. This is not a church that is "judging" or condemns others. This is a nice Bible church that is just too far for me to travel too without ending up late to work on Sundays  But that's what leadership needs to do.
I'm talking about taking appropriate action. After all, if it turned out that someone was stealing from the church, wouldn't they have to leave? Why is it that we allow some sins to let slide but others to not? Is it because some are more easily seen than others?
I know that everyone sins. I sin. Church goers sin. I am talking about people who broadcast their lifestyles in such a way that churchleaders do nothing about it and therefore, give the appearance of condoning it. How can we expect a pastor to be taken seriously if he's allowing homosexual couples to attend church openly, couples living together before marriage, people freely talking about having sex outside of marriage, drug use, alcohol abuse, etc.?
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RE: As a congregant to leaders... - 10/16/2009 1:52:22 PM
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singpeace
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Okay, I think I hear you saying that you have a real concern that hasn’t been addressed. This girl has been coming to church for 4 - 6 months or so; and by now, you feel she has had plenty of time to get it together, but hasn't. The fact that no one is confronting her makes you uncertain where those in leadership stand concerning the tolerance of sin. If the pastor doesn't confront her, then he is not fully meeting his obligations as a pastor. The boyfriend is an Atheist, and she lives with him in sin. She isn’t always tactful in her conversations but isn't reading the signals that others are uncomfortable with her talking about it. If I get any of this wrong, please correct me.
You stated: " I am not referring to people who have "just" become members of a church or are looking and you don't really know them. I am talking about people who have been going to church for "x" amount of months and make it fully known to everyone what it is that they are doing."
I don't know what kind of spiritual condition she was in before finding her way to your church, but with her choices so far, it sounds like she made need more than just a few months to start seeing results of discipline. Of course, if no one is really taking the time and effort to invest in her, then on her own, it will just take longer. The fact that she is at church at all, given the evidence of her life-choices so far, says a lot. I believe that the Lord led her straight to the doorstep of your church... and to think, He was standing right there when those women said no to her request to be a part of their little group. Wow. Busted! I would not want to explain that to my heavenly Daddy.
You know, if she is just being outright vulgar and describing what she and Rambo are doing in bed, then I'd be the first to take her to a nice private room and have a talk with her as a loving older sis. You say that she is making it.. “fully known to everyone what it is that they are doing.”
What does that mean? Is she really telling everyone what they do? Or is she making a poor attempt at conversation, and you guys use your own little imaginations and start seeing dirty pictures in your heads, right? That to me is funny as ... well.
She doesn't even know what she is doing, yet.
That day she wanted to be a part of the group is a day those ladies need to soon be repenting of. It was an opportunity for Godly, wise, Christian women to help raise up a young woman who needed guidance. But because she isn't a married woman her chance was forfeited. Did the President and Co-president really take a moment to discuss it? And after that, they still came up with 'no'.
I have to ask, have any of the women in your church reached out to her and tried to take her under a wing to protect her from making mistakes while helping her to grow in love and godly instruction?
I found this article written by Arlene Baker, a seasoned prophet and teacher for over 30 years: It is right on target with your concerns.
Welcome the Weak Do you know a believer who is having a hard time with a particular sin? How is a Christian to deal with a weak believer? How does God want us to treat those believers who are wavering in the faith? Romans 14 Amplified 1 AS FOR the man who is a weak believer, welcome him [into your fellowship], but not to criticize his opinions or pass judgment on his scruples or perplex him with discussions. Are you to separate yourself from the weak believer? No! The word welcome means to greet hospitably or to accept with pleasure. Are you to correct him? No! We are not to criticize his opinions or pass judgment on his scruples. What are scruples? The dictionary tells us that they are ethics. You might be asking “Who will fix the problem in the person who is weak?” The Bible tells us that it is the Holy Spirit’s job. 2 Corinthians 3 Amplified 18 And all of us, as with unveiled face, [because we] continued to behold [in the Word of God] as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are constantly being transfigured into His very own image in ever increasing splendor and from one degree of glory to another; [for this comes] from the Lord [Who is] the Spirit. The Holy Spirit will transfigure all of us including that person. Your job is to restore him (to bring him back to his original state) without judging him. Galatians 6 Amplified 1 BRETHREN, IF any person is overtaken in misconduct or sin of any sort, you who are spiritual [who are responsive to and controlled by the Spirit] should set him right and restore and reinstate him, without any sense of superiority and with all gentleness, keeping an attentive eye on yourself, lest you should be tempted also. 2 Bear (endure, carry) one another's burdens and troublesome moral faults, and in this way fulfill and observe perfectly the law of Christ (the Messiah) and complete what is lacking [in your obedience to it… 4 But let every person carefully scrutinize and examine and test his own conduct and his own work. He can then have the personal satisfaction and joy of doing something commendable [in itself alone] without [resorting to] boastful comparison with his neighbor. This restoration refers to misconduct or sin of any sort. Only those who are responsive to and controlled by the Holy Spirit are in a place to restore such a person. We are to endure each others burdens and troublesome moral faults in order to fulfill the law of Christ. What is the law of Christ? John15 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. We are to love each other just as Jesus loved us. What is God’s definition of love? 1 Corinthians 13 4 Love endures long and is patient and kind; love never is envious nor boils over with jealousy, is not boastful or vainglorious, does not display itself haughtily. 5 It is not conceited (arrogant and inflated with pride); it is not rude (unmannerly) and does not act unbecomingly. Love (God's love in us) does not insist on its own rights or its own way, for it is not self-seeking; it is not touchy or fretful or resentful; it takes no account of the evil done to it [it pays no attention to a suffered wrong]. 6 It does not rejoice at injustice and unrighteousness, but rejoices when right and truth prevail. 7 Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and it endures everything [without weakening]. 8 Love never fails…
You stated: "The young women's group leaders know about this yet noone has bothered to approach her. There was even a woman there who decided not to join the group because she was did not like how there was someone there openly talking about her premarital sex life and she didn't want to be affiliated with that. Considering the fact that this church is an ELCA, who knows what else they will let slip by considering the fact that they've fallen to the homosexual agenda."
Okay, if she is openly talking about her sex life, but no other women ever discuss theres, then she needs to be addressed in private and with kid gloves.
Now, concerning her life of sin:
1). The pastor won't talk to/confront her. 2). The young women and their group leaders won't talk to her, even when one made it clear that she wanted nothing to do with the girl or any group she was in... well, I guess she won’t be talking to her either. 3). The married women's group said she didn't meet their qualification, and none of them will talk to her. 4). You haven't discussed this with her. No one is talking to this girl about her life, but every woman of God in that church who has a knowledge of God’s Word and His love in her heart has been given the chance to be a true leader, and failed on the first try.
So.... out of all these church members, leaders of groups, presidents, co-presidents, and faithfuls, not one has done much except maybe murmur and whisper.... and it is the girl who needs to a talking-to?
That's like holding a toddler responsible for buying his own diapers and formula.
She hasn’t got a clue about how to successfully live holy, nor one minute of your knowledge and experience in God. I’m sorry, but her mouth may need a little reeling in, but her hands are clean... you have all collectively sinned against her. That’s exactly how it works, too. That’s why we are warned about judging others and to be careful or we'll find ourselves guilty of sin, too. You were judging her fruit, but she hasn't even produced the first piece of fruit, yet. I'm sure you ladies didn't set out to sin, but that's just how it works. I have caught myself right up in it a time or two.
Unless this girl of yours has a vulgar and trashy mouth, I would say to the young woman who refused to be associated with her that she needs to grow up and throw away the spiritual binky, cut her baby teeth on God’s Word and get to where she can handle eating the meat of his word.
You and I know when people are talking about us.. passing glances.. I bet she knows more than she lets on, and has been hurt. But if she has it in her to not leave, and to face trying to live a Christian life on her own while loving a man she cannot turn to in this or share with him.. then she’s got something! She’ll probably be preacher.
Unless I'm just mistaken, and you've got Linda Blair and the Exorcism on your hands, I'd say guys, get it together. No one seems to have been willing to carry her burden even one mile, while Jesus carried a heavy cross all that way for us.
I Cor. 1: 28-29 28 God has chosen the world's insignificant and despised things —the things viewed as nothing—so He might bring to nothing the things that are viewed as something, 29 so that no one can boast in His presence.
You also stated: "I'm talking about taking appropriate action. After all, if it turned out that someone was stealing from the church, wouldn't they have to leave? Why is it that we allow some sins to let slide but others to not? Is it because some are more easily seen than others?"
Okay, well, someone stealing from the church has thought long and hard and devised a plan to carry out his deed; while dismissing the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Do you think she has planned this out; to come there with ill-intent, steal your peace and use God’s house for personal gain? Or is she just a dumb, mixed up kid who has a lot of growing to do? I’m not there to see for myself, but my gut tells me she’s just needing God’s people to treat her the way he would if he were there in the flesh.
God led me to a church when I was young and mixed up. I was nothing like this girl of yours, I was a walking boil on the butt of creation. I had nothing to offer, and I needed intensive care for nearly that first year and a half. Thank God, He knew what He was doing and didn’t use me to test your congregation. I would have crumbled and died if I found out that God’s people couldn’t love me. The pastor's wife took lots of time with me to listen if I needed to talk, and she never confronted my sins but treated me like I was clean. So she taught me about God’s Word, and I confided in her the things I had had been guilty of in my past. She just cried and said, "It makes me love you all the more." and she meant it. That was the first time that I saw love. It was not based on how good I could be or how happy I made someone... I could never win it or work for it. It was free even if I stumbled big time; and it didn't change when I was doing all the right things, either. It was always exactly the same, and it made me feel safe.
Now, I have been a minister for over 15 years and have only grown to love people, especially the wretched, bound-up, and thrown away dogs of society.
If you truly feel you should approach her, do it. First, pray that you see her and know her through His heart and His eyes. Then approach her lovingly and with meekness and in private. My guess is she just needs a guiding hand and a lot of patience. She'll probably be a preacher. God is doing something for you, too, though I don’t know what it might be. You are a significant part of a His plan.
I am going to pray for you every time I think of it.
_____________________________
Psalm 123:1 Unto You do I lift up my eyes, O You Who are enthroned in heaven.
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RE: As a congregant to leaders... - 10/16/2009 3:33:11 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6721
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lea84
For instance, the girl I referred to earlier has been a member of my church since spring and has made it known from the start that she and her atheist boyfriend live together. She was upset because in her mind, she felt equally qualified to be a member of the married women's group.
Let me see if I have this correct; this young woman is living in open fornication and is proud of it, but is upset because she cannot have full (or any) fellowship with the Church.
Well duh!
Church by definition is a gathering of the "Saints" not a gathering of the "Fornicators".
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: As a congregant to leaders... - 10/17/2009 2:07:55 PM
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kcgodlyman
Posts: 42
Joined: 7/1/2009
Status: offline
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I think singpeace has put it the most forthright and biblicly correct of anything yet. Our Lord came here to minister to people just like this young woman. Look at who He gathered to Himself. He had sinners of all sorts around Him, and chastised His disciples for attempting to keep Him from talking to them. Isn't His example enough for us? Aren't we called to be His body and to carry on with His work? We were never told to surround ourselves with people who believe just as we believe, unless we are baby Christians who are in need of nurturing. Those of us who have had time to mature in our faith and gain strength and wisdom, should also have gained compassion, forgiveness and grace. If we have not gained these attributes then we are guilty of sin ourselves. Be careful when you point the finger of condemnation for you show yourself worthy of condemnation as well. If this young woman were attending our church she would already have a dozen people trying to help her and guide her. Our pastor would have spoken with her to encourage her and to also point out appropriate speech. Perhaps, this young woman is aware that her relationship is wrong and is looking for someone to help her find a way out, but you have not given her a chance to ask.
_____________________________
A true friend is hard to find, but even harder to lose!
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RE: As a congregant to leaders... - 10/19/2009 12:44:01 AM
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Lea_3
Posts: 298
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: singpeace
I don't know what kind of spiritual condition she was in before finding her way to your church, but with her choices so far, it sounds like she made need more than just a few months to start seeing results of discipline. Of course, if no one is really taking the time and effort to invest in her, then on her own, it will just take longer. The fact that she is at church at all, given the evidence of her life-choices so far, says a lot. I believe that the Lord led her straight to the doorstep of your church... and to think, He was standing right there when those women said no to her request to be a part of their little group. Wow. Busted! I would not want to explain that to my heavenly Daddy.
So they should let someone openly living in sin join a group, where Christian teaching explicitly states that marriage is the legal union between a man and a woman? How is that Biblical?
These aren't "little cliques" where there is elite membership-- every women's circle serves a purpose. Some of them are geared to singles, some to married women, some to older women, some to younger. Some have very limited membership and others have more open membership. But they each have criteria one must meet. I cannot join some groups yet because I have not met criteria, but I am not complaining about it. If I can't join the young professionals group because I am still in college and am barely working, can I really complain? Just as someone cannot get upset because they are not legally married and cannot join a married women's group.
quote:
ORIGINAL: singpeace y
ou guys use your own little imaginations and start seeing dirty pictures in your heads, right? That to me is funny as ... well.
She has been approached to reconsider her lifestyle yet she doesn't care. She told me the first day I met her-- "I live with my boyfriend and really don't care what people think about it, I'm still Christian". In fact, she accused some of the members of the women's groups to be judgmental and high and mighty. These are not women who stick their noses up in the air and look down at others with disdain. These were women who took me in while I struggled to fit into groups and just churches in general. These are people who are warm and welcoming and applaud me and help me in my convictions.
The co-president and president did not speak to others about this decision, but took almost a week to discuss it from what I gather. They consulted with the women's pastor and another pastor as well. This was not a quick decision.
Imagine knowing people who talk and drop comments about how their boyfriend/girlfriend was snoring through the night, or they "hog" a bed, or they engaged in certain sexual practices, or anything else about living together and they drop these comments every single time you come into contact. After a while, you become very tired of hearing these things because for one, it's not appropriate and secondly, it becomes a stumbling block. I had a friend who was a self-proclaimed Christian who decided that it was okay to have sex outside of marriage and would tell me about his activities. After the first time it happened, I asked him to not speak of it again because I thought it was wrong and it's very inappropriate for an unmarried man and unmarried woman to even be talking about those things anyway! I told him I was concerned for his behavior and it was not expectant of a Christian, and then he began to argue with me about how you can't find anything in the Bible about it. I urged him several times after that for him to seek counsel about his behavior and try to find his way back again, but he did not care. I decided, it was time for me to separate myself from someone who was going to speak so lascivious to me. It was becoming a stumbling block for me. Yet in the end, I was the one who was judgmental, mean, uptight, and needed to get a life. He told me I had no compassion at all. I haven't spoken to him in a year.
quote:
ORIGINAL: singpeace
She doesn't even know what she is doing, yet.
She knows what she is doing. Her parents know what she is doing. I have other friends who are living a similar lifestyle, think they are Christian, and know what they are doing and don't care.
This member is a grown woman who is older than I am, and I am 25. She is not some "kid" who needs to be spoon-fed what is right and wrong. In fact, most people who are old enough to make these kinds of decisions are purposefully doing them because they don't see anything wrong with it. I am not asserting that she is trying to make any trouble, however when you are someone professing to be Christian and live a lifestyle contrary to that, you cannot get upset with others when they point out that there are issues with the lifestyle and no, an unmarried woman cannot join a married women's group in church just because she is living with her boyfriend.
You know, these things really frustrate me because the first thing I think is, why should I bother? Why should I have to live a life according to Christian morals yet noone else bothers? This is NOT fair at all. It's so frustrating yet I am the one regarded like a freak?
I don't know a single Christian or have a single Christian friend who hasn't lived with a partner outside of marriage, had premarital sex, did drugs, gets drunk almost every weekend at a party, engages in questionable behavior, etc. but I make the effort to not do those things, and guess who is the one who has to get a "talking to" from church leadership because I turned down helping out with certain ministries because I am busy with school? Me. I am the one with guilt for not being "good enough". I'm so tired of this. I always think, why shouldn't I engage in these same things as well...after all, leadership doesn't seem to care. They obviously aren't going to do anything. I'll fit in quite well. The truth is, church leadership has shown me that living the "Christian life" isn't worth it the very least.
< Message edited by lea84 -- 10/19/2009 12:59:46 AM >
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RE: As a congregant to leaders... - 10/19/2009 2:36:06 PM
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seagullplayer
Posts: 332
Joined: 9/18/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lea_3
You know, these things really frustrate me because the first thing I think is, why should I bother? Why should I have to live a life according to Christian morals yet noone else bothers? This is NOT fair at all. It's so frustrating yet I am the one regarded like a freak?
I don't know a single Christian or have a single Christian friend who hasn't lived with a partner outside of marriage, had premarital sex, did drugs, gets drunk almost every weekend at a party, engages in questionable behavior, etc. but I make the effort to not do those things, and guess who is the one who has to get a "talking to" from church leadership because I turned down helping out with certain ministries because I am busy with school? Me. I am the one with guilt for not being "good enough". I'm so tired of this. I always think, why shouldn't I engage in these same things as well...after all, leadership doesn't seem to care. They obviously aren't going to do anything. I'll fit in quite well. The truth is, church leadership has shown me that living the "Christian life" isn't worth it the very least.
Colossians 3:22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:
Colossians 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
Colossians 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance; for ye serve the Lord Christ.
Colossians 3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done; and there is no respect of persons.
_____________________________
The world has only one problem, sin.
There is only one solution, Jesus.
Seems a lot of people watch evangelist on TV and call it going to church.
My kids use to play Mario Cart and think they where driving…
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RE: As a congregant to leaders... - 10/27/2009 6:55:53 PM
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writerchick
Posts: 365
Joined: 10/3/2008
Status: offline
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I understand exactly where you're coming from, Lea. All I can do is offer you encouragement to stay your course. At the end of the day, that's all you can do. I know it's frustrating to see things like this happening, but there's not a lot you can do to change someone else's behavior.
Stay the course God set out for you and leave the rest alone. Trust me. It is worth it in the end. Just because everybody seems to be able to do the most and get away with it does not mean that you will be able to do the same.
I know for me, I cannot lie about taking sick days off from work. It seems like such a little thing and everybody else does it, but I can't. The one time I did, I got the sickest I've ever been in my life the following week. There are consequences when you don't do what God has laid out for you to do. They may not be as clear cut as that, but why take the chance of missing your blessing by getting off course simply because "everybody else is doing it?"
Trust me. It's not worth worth it.
Oh...and for the record, I do agree with you. This woman is pretty silly. From her point of view, it sounds like she was trying to get in the married woman's group to gain validation for her lifestyle. That didn't happen. So you can rest assured that God is still in control. Perhaps the leadership isn't handling things the way you'd like, but it sounds like they are being handled.
Stay your course.
_____________________________
Secret Bodyguard - Available Now from Amira Press!
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