|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/4/2009 8:52:32 PM
|
|
|
iluvatar
Posts: 3044
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
Thursday is our 4th wedding anniversary and I don't know if we'll make it to 5.
For the bulk of our marriage, my wife has directed a lot of anger, resentment, hostility, and criticism at me and I don't know how much more of it I can (or am willing to) take. The situation bears a lot of resemblance to what was described in this thread by bananaboat (as her current situation) and especially by 3cappucinosmom (as how she used to be).
For example, today I thought she'd planned on making a large dinner. So, at lunch time, I set about fixing myself some leftovers for lunch and had planned on offering some to her. Upon seeing me making food, she started yelling (including calling me an idiot and a stupid <profanity>) at me 1.) for not asking her if she had planned on making anything (turns out her plans were for lunch not dinner) and 2.) for just cooking something for myself w/o offering to make her anything.
This sounds like your garden variety argument and I'll take the blame for misunderstanding her plans, but the level of vitriol was way out of proportion and it's far from the first time it's happened. But according to her, it's all my fault for communicating poorly. In another example, when we first moved here, we went to pick up a pizza and on the way back, I made a wrong turn and got lost. She spent the next 20 minutes (I timed it) yelling at me without stopping and without me saying a word.
Things had actually been getting mildly better over the last 6 months - I'm not sure if it's because things were actually better or just because nothing had been triggering her anger (stresses about money, work, and sleep quality have been reduced lately). She's decided that she's ready to start having kids and I'm wondering how on earth I can raise a family with someone who basically treats me like I'm a servant, disregards me at every turn, and handles stress and lack of sleep so poorly that I think the only reason the last 6 months have been as good as they have been (which is mediocre) is because we got a new mattress.
Honestly, I think I could stick it out if it were just the two of us - we could have our own screwed up life w/ no responsibilities to anyone but ourselves, taking our time to finally work out our problems (hopefully). But with kids you don't have that luxury. We have to be a team first, and the stresses that come with having a baby are the same as some of those we've already experienced (though to a lesser degree) and that have only served to tear us apart.
We've been seeing a counselor for a few months, but I don't know if he's doing any good. We don't seem to be getting anywhere - I might try to find a new one. I don't know if I have any questions, but input is welcome.
Edit: I forgot the (potential) manipulation part. I realize that things of a "physical" nature are somewhat taboo in mixed company so I'll keep it general and brief. Basically, there hasn't been much physical intimacy at all throughout the course of our marriage (literally from day one) and even those times when it was permitted, she's had an aversion to kissing or touching (which was not the case at all when we were dating). About a month and a half ago, she had an outpatient procedure that prohibited any activities for a month. About halfway into it, she decided that once the month was up, it'd be time to start "trying." Within a couple days of the deadline, it was like a switch was flipped and all of a sudden she was all over me. I felt cheap.
-Dan.
< Message edited by iluvatar -- 10/4/2009 9:01:45 PM >
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/4/2009 9:14:10 PM
|
|
|
manda59
Posts: 8231
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
|
iluvatar
Presumably she was not like this when you met and courted? So, when did she change - was it as soon as you were married, just after or....?
_____________________________
"It is a serious stellar day when I agree with both Ruth and Manda." Surpassing Peace, November 2009
Proud Member of the Imperfect Wives' Club
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/4/2009 9:26:58 PM
|
|
|
a_sparrow
Posts: 569
Joined: 6/20/2006
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
|
Occasional screaming matches are really not unusual in marriage, and are often not actually about the issues on the table. I can see you're unhappy and frustrated, but wouldn't necessarily consider your wife's recent outburst a major setback, unless it is repeated with increasing frequency.
That said, I would not bring children into such a situation, for the reason you've provided here:
quote:
We have to be a team first, and the stresses that come with having a baby are the same as some of those we've already experienced (though to a lesser degree) and that have only served to tear us apart.
You've also noted that your wife does not seem able to handle lack of sleep, and I understand that that is a big part of parenting infants, unless you're one of the few couples wealthy enough to hire a nighttime baby nurse.
I would not say to your wife that you won't agree to have children until she has proved she has changed, though, because she'll see that as manipulation. I would tell her that your marriage needs to be on better footing, that there's more work for both of you to do together.
I'd also suggest individual counseling for both of you, as well as continued marriage counseling.
If you think that the quality of the marriage counselor you're seeing now may be part of the reason you're not making the headway you'd like to see, it certainly can't hurt to try another counselor.
When a tirade begins, it can sometimes help to get up and walk out for a while, not as a punishment, but because there's no need to sit and listen to the screaming, nagging, or insulting for hours on end. You can say that you love her, but need to get out of the house/room for a bit, and hope you two can discuss whatever the problem is at a later time when you're calmer. Then tell her where you're going and when you'll be back (within a reasonable period - not the next day, or in the middle of the night), and keep your word. You can even text her from wherever you are, just to say you're all right and to confirm when you'll be back.
_____________________________
Elizabeth
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/4/2009 9:32:30 PM
|
|
|
iluvatar
Posts: 3044
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
Presumably she was not like this when you met and courted? So, when did she change - was it as soon as you were married, just after or....?
Well... I'm not sure. In hindsight, she's exhibited some of these qualities to some degree as long as I've known her, but they were generally directed at other people (i.e. typically not me) and not nearly to this degree, nor as frequently as was the case in the first ~3.5 years of our marriage. At the time, though, I chalked it up to either pre-existing issues w/ her mom (of which there were a few), or just an occasional blow-up that could be worked through with time. Everybody can be a jerk (even inadvertently) once in a while. At that point, I didn't recognize it as a pattern, per se.
I'd say things started noticeably changing somewhere between 6 months before we got married and about 2 months into it. I had a job that had me working a lot of hours, particularly nights and weekends which exacerbated her issues with loneliness and abandonment. She moved to where I was living and got a new job that wound up being very stressful for her (both because of office dynamics and because of her own insecurities). This roughly coincided with a separation from a core group of close childhood friends who all got married and moved away within a few years of each other.
The lack of desire for physical intimacy became apparent during the honeymoon. The first couple years we dated, there was plenty of kissing and affection, though about a year or so prior to the wedding (roughly when we got engaged), we agreed to tone it back so as to not tempt ourselves any further. Somewhere along the way, the good intention began masking something else.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/4/2009 9:34:40 PM
|
|
|
a_sparrow
Posts: 569
Joined: 6/20/2006
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
|
Just saw your edit. I would definitely recommend counseling for her, and would definitely back off from the idea of starting a family. She may think marital intimacy is permissible only for that purpose. It would be extremely unfair to bring children into the world in an effort to resolve any such internal conflict she may be having, and it won't fix the problem, anyway.
_____________________________
Elizabeth
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/4/2009 9:46:28 PM
|
|
|
iluvatar
Posts: 3044
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: a_sparrow
Occasional screaming matches are really not unusual in marriage, and are often not actually about the issues on the table. I can see you're unhappy and frustrated, but wouldn't necessarily consider your wife's recent outburst a major setback, unless it is repeated with increasing frequency.
Well, we'll see, I suppose. I think what worries me more is that there's virtually no acknowledgment on her part that what she's done (either today or in the past) is wrong or that she has any effect on the marriage at all. That has gone so far that there have been times when I've thanked her for making extra effort to work on our relationship, and she'll just flat out deny that she's done anything, saying that any change is because of me. That after a week where I'd been somewhat moody.
quote:
I would not say to your wife that you won't agree to have children until she has proved she has changed, though, because she'll see that as manipulation. I would tell her that your marriage needs to be on better footing, that there's more work for both of you to do together.
I've thought about that - I don't want to be manipulative either. But practically speaking, we're under a bit of a time crunch if we're going to have kids. She's 36 and the aforementioned procedure has the potential to make conception a bit more difficult - if she needs another one in however long (12 months?), the risks go up.
And honestly, I don't trust her to not put on a show for a while (deliberately or not) to get me to agree, only to then go back to being even worse than before once having a baby starts being hard.
Part of me wonders if the affection during the first ~3 years of our dating was basically because she was looking forward to getting married, seeing it as something exciting. But once the drudgery of normal life set in and everything wasn't princesses and fairytales, I basically became someone to put up with. I fear that the same thing will transpire with having children - it's new and exciting at first, until they start keeping you up at night and imposing all sorts of restrictions on what you can and can't do. I can handle being resented and getting dumped on because I'm an inconvenience or because I have requests and needs - a kid shouldn't have to deal with that.
quote:
When a tirade begins, it can sometimes help to get up and walk out for a while
noooo..... Not (necessarily) with my wife. The abandonment thing is a big deal - she may flip out if I walk away from her.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/4/2009 9:52:33 PM
|
|
|
a_sparrow
Posts: 569
Joined: 6/20/2006
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
|
quote:
Part of me wonders if the affection during the first ~3 years of our dating was basically because she was looking forward to getting married, seeing it as something exciting. But once the drudgery of normal life set in and everything wasn't princesses and fairytales, I basically became someone to put up with. I fear that the same thing will transpire with having children - it's new and exciting at first, until they start keeping you up at night and imposing all sorts of restrictions on what you can and can't do. I can handle being resented and getting dumped on because I'm an inconvenience or because I have requests and needs - a kid shouldn't have to deal with that.
No, you definitely can't bring children into a situation like that. And if she were to vent her rage at the children, you would be responsible for protecting them.
quote:
noooo..... Not (necessarily) with my wife. The abandonment thing is a big deal - she may flip out if I walk away from her.
Unless by "flip out," you mean she'd become a danger to herself or others, I still think it's better not to subject yourself to that, simply to avoid a tantrum. Adults must learn that they cannot get their way by throwing fits.
_____________________________
Elizabeth
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/4/2009 9:54:29 PM
|
|
|
iluvatar
Posts: 3044
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: a_sparrow
Unless by "flip out," you mean she'd become a danger to herself or others,
FWIW, I do not think that she's dangerous.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/4/2009 10:03:14 PM
|
|
|
a_sparrow
Posts: 569
Joined: 6/20/2006
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
|
quote:
Ah, but how to get someone to agree to counseling when they think everything is your fault? I've lost track of the number of times I've been told that I'd get more affection if I was just nicer/home more/more accommodating of her needs/etc. At this point I feel like it's just jumping through hoops, and I don't take it seriously any more.
If she's unwilling to try counseling for herself, there's not much you can do to change that.
You can love her, you can try to accommodate her needs, because it's the right thing to do, without expecting that it will make her any nicer, more affectionate, or tolerable, and you can simultaneously set whatever boundaries you need to set to maintain your own sanity, without asking her permission. Focus on doing the right thing, and not on winning her approval.
quote:
Well, we'll see, I suppose. I think what worries me more is that there's virtually no acknowledgment on her part that what she's done (either today or in the past) is wrong or that she has any effect on the marriage at all. That has gone so far that there have been times when I've thanked her for making extra effort to work on our relationship, and she'll just flat out deny that she's done anything, saying that any change is because of me. That after a week where I'd been somewhat moody.
Some people cannot accept that they might ever have been wrong. If they improved their behavior, there would have had to have been room for improvement, so they can't accept praise for that. You may have to accept that you will never hear her acknowledge certain realities, unless God heals whatever is causing her to be this way. Try not to let that stop you from appreciating whatever (unacknowledged) improvements she has made.
_____________________________
Elizabeth
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/4/2009 10:32:50 PM
|
|
|
creationtalk
Posts: 477
Joined: 6/9/2005
Status: online
|
Agree with those who say to fix marriage before adding children to the mix. Children do not fix problems in a relationship--the simply add a bunch more.
quote:
Some people cannot accept that they might ever have been wrong. If they improved their behavior, there would have had to have been room for improvement, so they can't accept praise for that. You may have to accept that you will never hear her acknowledge certain realities, unless God heals whatever is causing her to be this way.
This is very true. To understand her motivation you may need to go back into her childhood.
I'm sorry that you are in this situation. It may never improve. You said that the past few months had been better...and that you have been seeing a counselor the past few months. Could there be a connection?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/5/2009 1:00:44 AM
|
|
|
keithyhuntington
Posts: 814
Joined: 7/7/2009
From: Tulsa, Okla.
Status: offline
|
I can't offer any advice, cause y wife is the exact antithesis of yours. My wife hates confrontation, arguing, and power struggles. So I'm not sure what any of that is like.
What if can say though is if you want to take a step back and let her pray to god about what's important in life, yiu can always couch surf at our place :)
_____________________________
Jesus Christ please help me 'cause i'm lonely. Whats the use in living, if you can't make a good living?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/5/2009 1:31:16 AM
|
|
|
Mollymouser
Posts: 3950
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: california, land of the happy cows
Status: online
|
Dan, I'm sorry.
That sounds like a hellish existence ... walking on eggshells and hoping not to set off a 30-minute screaming tirade. It also sounds a lot like what I experienced growing up -- the smallest thing could set off either or both of my parents and then I just hunkered down and waited for the firestorm to end. It was a scary, anxiety-producing, profanity-filled, awful existence. I am glad that you are concerned about bringing children into such a situation -- and that your prudence and common sense will have you wait before doing so.
You are a child of God ... and you deserve to have a house filled with Christ's peace, support, encouragement, love and fellowship. At some point, you will need to clearly communicate to your wife that her tirades must stop, and that she needs to do something about them ... or that your marriage may end up in a separation.
If your current counselor isn't "doing it" ... then get another. If your wife won't go to counseling, go without her. Is your pastor involved with these problems? Do you have christian buddies who can keep you undergirded in prayer?
Are you praying daily FOR your wife and your marriage?
Are you praying daily WITH your wife for your marriage.
I will keep your situation in prayer.
_____________________________
  MARRIED TO A MILITARY PILOT ~ PLEASE PRAY FOR OUR TROOPS!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/5/2009 6:40:08 AM
|
|
|
iluvatar
Posts: 3044
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: creationtalk
I'm sorry that you are in this situation. It may never improve. You said that the past few months had been better...and that you have been seeing a counselor the past few months. Could there be a connection?
The up turn started before we started seeing the counselor. It actually coincides more with the new mattress than anything else I've been able to figure.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/5/2009 7:18:11 AM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 3812
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
The up turn started before we started seeing the counselor. It actually coincides more with the new mattress than anything else I've been able to figure. Dan - so sorry to hear all this. It sounds too familiar.
Pray 3 ways: fast, hard and continuously.
It took a lot of years for things to turn around in our marriage, but it did. In our case it was in part her mother's attitude and the fact that there had been severe sexual abuse when she was in grade school.
And don't discount the new mattress. We got a new mattress a couple of years ago, and DW has been much more pleasant since she has been getting a good sleep.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/5/2009 8:39:40 AM
|
|
|
charity7
Posts: 464
Status: offline
|
could she be bi-polar?
_____________________________
The happiest people don't necessarily have the best of everything; they just make the best of everything they have
Life isn't about how to survive the storm, but how to dance in the rain!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/5/2009 9:57:56 AM
|
|
|
TXRedhead
Posts: 156
Joined: 4/28/2009
Status: offline
|
Do you think you could get her to go to counseling with you if you present it in a different light? Would she go if she thought she would be able to present to the counselor all of the problems she has with you that you need to work on?
I, too, am sorry that you are in this situation. And, despite the fact that she might flip out, I would second the recommendation to get up and leave when your wife starts yelling at you or belittling you. I would first say, "I will talk about this with you if you will stop yelling at me [and/or insulting me]. If you don't stop, I'm going to leave until you will." If she still won't stop [and probably won't], then walk away. One of the best, and, unfortunately, most difficult ways to stop obnoxious behavior is to refuse to feed it with attention of any kind, good or bad. By walking away and actually physically leaving the house, you are forcing her to calm down and rethink what she says and how she says it.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/5/2009 11:17:46 AM
|
|
|
stamper_ben
Posts: 8029
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
Status: offline
|
quote:
Ah, but how to get someone to agree to counseling when they think everything is your fault? I've lost track of the number of times I've been told that I'd get more affection if I was just nicer/home more/more accommodating of her needs/etc. At this point I feel like it's just jumping through hoops, and I don't take it seriously any more. Perhaps she might be more agreeable to counseling if you would be willing to address those issues bolded in counseling with her?
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/5/2009 11:24:28 AM
|
|
|
laura...
Posts: 3284
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: NE Ohio
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
When a tirade begins, it can sometimes help to get up and walk out for a while
noooo..... Not (necessarily) with my wife. The abandonment thing is a big deal - she may flip out if I walk away from her.
-Dan.
I understand your concern, however, walking away and leaving when she belittles you or starts into a tirade is the only answer. I suggest that you prepare her for that response prior to an incident. It would be best to bring it up during a marriage counseling session. The counselor should agree that removing yourself from the room or house when she rages is the best response. Such preparation will hopefully mitigate her flipping out due to her abandonment issues. But, even if she does flip out, it is still the best response. You are not responsible for her "flipping out". It is her responsibility to control herself and her own reactions.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/5/2009 11:49:08 AM
|
|
|
W.O.F.
Posts: 1653
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: an ignoble beginning
Status: offline
|
My advice is simply to pray for your wife, pray for wisdom for yourself, pray for your marriage, find a new counselor or at least continue with the one you have. Counseling is not a quick process when there is marital discord to the level that is seems you have.
I will be praying for you and your wife.
_____________________________
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
|
|
|
|
|
Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/5/2009 12:04:51 PM
|
|
|
PinkCarnations
Posts: 10816
Status: offline
|
I'm sorry Dan. Praying for you and your wife.
_____________________________
Thank you Veterans.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/5/2009 12:08:52 PM
|
|
|
bolt.
Posts: 1765
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: Canada
Status: online
|
quote:
You can love her, you can try to accommodate her needs, because it's the right thing to do, without expecting that it will make her any nicer, more affectionate, or tolerable, and you can simultaneously set whatever boundaries you need to set to maintain your own sanity, without asking her permission. Focus on doing the right thing, and not on winning her approval.
This is the core of it -- both for survival and to make change most likely.
You need to be capable of hurting her (emotionally) -- not damaging her or doing her harm -- but being willing to do or say things that will be painful to her. When she sees that the choices she makes might have results in the real world, that you are not all-absorb ant to whatever she can throw... she might begin to take steps.
One of the things you need to be able to say is that you will only consent to your part of conceiving a child when you are convinced in your heart that he or she will be raised in a household that is emotionally stable 95% of the time, and where the 5% instability does not express itself as verbal abuse. (Be prepared to define verbal abuse.) You are deeply sorry that time is pressing, but you would rather have time expire than to do something you consider personally irresponsible -- and since she needs your participation, she's going to have to deal with that boundary one way or another. Does she have any ideas? Are there ways you could support her?
_____________________________
Are you having trouble getting your daily dose of the life changing Word of God?
Let my friend Brian at Daily Audio Bible help you too.
>>audio link<<
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/5/2009 12:27:32 PM
|
|
|
manda59
Posts: 8231
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
I chalked it up to either pre-existing issues w/ her mom (of which there were a few)
Dan, are these issues with her mom resolved or are they ongoing?
Also, could I just ask about the counsellor you have been seeing so far - what training and qualifications they have, what counselling model they use.
_____________________________
"It is a serious stellar day when I agree with both Ruth and Manda." Surpassing Peace, November 2009
Proud Member of the Imperfect Wives' Club
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/5/2009 1:35:50 PM
|
|
|
benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
|
quote:
Thursday is our 4th wedding anniversary and I don't know if we'll make it to 5.
If your wife doesn't know that you are absolutely committed to her regardless of how she is acting, it leads to the insecurities which will result in many of the kinds of difficulties you are experiencing. She needs to know that YOU LOVE HER even when she is most unlovable. Scripture tells us that husbands are to love their wives like Christ loves the church i.e. a church that is often in rebellion towards him; remember that we love God because HE FIRST LOVED US, and as the head of the family following Christ's example, husbands are to sacrificially take the lead in loving their wives regardless of whether the response from their wife is loving. Responding with love often doesn't change a situation over night, but very often it does change the situation over time as trust is built and the commitment to your wife is truly recognized by her. The question husbands need to be asking in situations like you have described is "How am I loving my wife in this situation?"
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/5/2009 1:42:53 PM
|
|
|
myka
Posts: 981
Status: offline
|
Oh, gosh, Dan; I'm so sorry to hear how difficult it has been for you.
I think that Elizabeth and Laura have a good idea. It is important for you to have 'boundaries' (the people in counseling like to talk about those a lot) and not allow yourself to be disrespected or yelled at. It also breaks the cycle of yelling and trying to get a response from the other person. It needs to be a calm and deliberate response that is explained ahead of time (so that the partner doesn't think that the other has abandoned them). I actually had to do that once when my husband had reached a point where I couldn't tolerate it any more.
How are you feeling within yourself?
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
