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RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/5/2009 1:55:08 PM
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eaglelady11
Posts: 269
Joined: 7/20/2005
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there's a difference between loving someone and allowing that person to continue in sinful behavior. I am the verbal abuser who gets counseling. and I Can tell you it stems from many hings: feeling powerless and so empowering myself with rage, fear of being abused and taken advantage of, boundaries being violated, and pride, thinking the world has to make me happy. I am now taking a Boundaries workshop so I can set boundaries without becoming a madhouse.
You can love her, but tell her to get counseling. It would be good for her and you.
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RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/5/2009 2:05:38 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
It needs to be a calm and deliberate response that is explained ahead of time (so that the partner doesn't think that the other has abandoned them).
I agree, good boundaries can be an incredibly helpful tool in a bad situation when there is no question about the commitment to LOVE and to remain faithful to the marriage; however, when that commitment is in question, "boundaries" can be as damaging as the behaviors that have required the "boundaries". If the focus of the boundaries is on "US" and how do "WE" make our marriage better, then the boundaries are extremely helpful; however, if the focus on the boundaries is on "ME" and how do "I" protect myself from "YOU" then they are often the first steps towards the divorce courts. The issue is whether "boundaries" are an expression of LOVE, or our they an expression of selfishness. Having good boundaries is really important when motivated first by Love for our spouse, but without Love having boundaries is of almost no value at all. A spouse needs to be assured that they are still deeply loved especially when lines need to be drawn.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/5/2009 4:20:40 PM
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Hislittleone
Posts: 681
Joined: 7/13/2007
From: The South
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quote:
Benelchi:
If the focus of the boundaries is on "US" and how do "WE" make our marriage better, then the boundaries are extremely helpful; however, if the focus on the boundaries is on "ME" and how do "I" protect myself from "YOU" then they are often the first steps towards the divorce courts. The issue is whether "boundaries" are an expression of LOVE, or our they an expression of selfishness.
This is so good it's worth repeating. That's an excellent point.
_____________________________
Galations 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
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RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/5/2009 5:01:10 PM
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Hislittleone
Posts: 681
Joined: 7/13/2007
From: The South
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quote:
Benelchi:
She needs to know that YOU LOVE HER even when she is most unlovable. Scripture tells us that husbands are to love their wives like Christ loves the church i.e. a church that is often in rebellion towards him; remember that we love God because HE FIRST LOVED US, and as the head of the family following Christ's example, husbands are to sacrificially take the lead in loving their wives regardless of whether the response from their wife is loving.
That is excellent advice. My husband loves me like this and it has healed a lot of damage in our relationship.
Dan, do you yell or curse at her as well? I won't presume that you are but if that is indeed the case, it's only feeding the fire.
The way she's acting is wrong but as the husband, the head, you have so much power in deciding which direction the marriage takes (I'm assuming here that your wife is a Christian). If you follow Benelchi's advice it could have a HUGE impact on your marriage.
Joel and Kathy Davisson (authors of Man of Her Dreams/Woman of His) say that a woman's love isn't supposed to be the agape kind, that's how husbands are commanded to love their wives. The wife in turn has a philandros love for her husband which is a responsive love just like Benelchi said.....we love God because He first loved us. It's a responsive love. And if marriage is supposed to mirror the Church's relationship with God then it makes perfect sense for husbands and wives to love each other that way.
You may want to check out their books HERE. I always warn people about getting involved directly with their ministry because my husband and I had a negative experience with their counseling and we know several other couples who had bad experiences as well. The basis of what they teach is really good though.
Also, Discovering the Mind of A Woman by Ken Nair is probably the very best book my husband and I have ever read on marriage. I DO recommend counseling with this ministry.
Those books have really made a huge difference in our marriage.
I know it's hard to be in a difficult marriage. I've btdt. It's no fun but if you can stick it out and work through these issues the end result could be a marriage that's better than you ever imagined it could be. That's what happened with my husband and me.
_____________________________
Galations 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
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RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/5/2009 8:00:08 PM
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hnt
Posts: 667
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bolt.
quote:
You can love her, you can try to accommodate her needs, because it's the right thing to do, without expecting that it will make her any nicer, more affectionate, or tolerable, and you can simultaneously set whatever boundaries you need to set to maintain your own sanity, without asking her permission. Focus on doing the right thing, and not on winning her approval.
This is the core of it -- both for survival and to make change most likely.
You need to be capable of hurting her (emotionally) -- not damaging her or doing her harm -- but being willing to do or say things that will be painful to her. When she sees that the choices she makes might have results in the real world, that you are not all-absorb ant to whatever she can throw... she might begin to take steps.
One of the things you need to be able to say is that you will only consent to your part of conceiving a child when you are convinced in your heart that he or she will be raised in a household that is emotionally stable 95% of the time, and where the 5% instability does not express itself as verbal abuse. (Be prepared to define verbal abuse.) You are deeply sorry that time is pressing, but you would rather have time expire than to do something you consider personally irresponsible -- and since she needs your participation, she's going to have to deal with that boundary one way or another. Does she have any ideas? Are there ways you could support her?
I do tend to agree with the above, and I can more than understand WHY you feel used in the bedroom at this point as well.
She needs her own individual counseling, and you need your own as well. At this point anything you say in joint counseling is just going to set her off, and make her mad. You won't get any fruit out of it. That's not to say you can't join counseling together down the road. It needs to start now, before you bring children into this world. Children do add pressure to a relationship, and when its not healthy? It can make the issues worse and more magnified.
There is no way around NOT hurting her at this point. She has to make this choice not only for herself, but for the future children that would be involved. She is kidding herself if she feels she would not do the same to them. Its NOT healthy watching it done to Dad either! So to say it would only be you? That's not better or different. Its still not healthy.
_____________________________
h
Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/5/2009 8:25:53 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3044
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
feeling powerless and so empowering myself with rage, fear of being abused and taken advantage of, boundaries being violated, and pride, thinking the world has to make me happy.
You're batting 1.000 so far. The fear of being taken advantage of is something that's caused a lot of concern/confusion/trepidation for me, because my family was always willing to share just about anything. To have my wife instinctively respond last week that it's not fair for me to be the one to use the gas coupons all the time was... bizarre. (to be fair, she did take it back almost immediately and try to explain it another way, but I could tell that's what she meant at first)
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
It needs to be a calm and deliberate response that is explained ahead of time (so that the partner doesn't think that the other has abandoned them).
I agree, good boundaries can be an incredibly helpful tool in a bad situation when there is no question about the commitment to LOVE and to remain faithful to the marriage; however, when that commitment is in question, "boundaries" can be as damaging as the behaviors that have required the "boundaries". If the focus of the boundaries is on "US" and how do "WE" make our marriage better, then the boundaries are extremely helpful; however, if the focus on the boundaries is on "ME" and how do "I" protect myself from "YOU" then they are often the first steps towards the divorce courts. The issue is whether "boundaries" are an expression of LOVE, or our they an expression of selfishness. Having good boundaries is really important when motivated first by Love for our spouse, but without Love having boundaries is of almost no value at all. A spouse needs to be assured that they are still deeply loved especially when lines need to be drawn.
That's really interesting. How does this apply when the offender see the "victim" as the person at fault for both the original offense and the subsequent outbursts? It seems to me that for boundaries to really work, both parties need to maintain at least some sort of rationality about the whole thing. Practically speaking, I'm not sure how to convert a boundary from protecting me to protecting us.
quote:
Dan, do you yell or curse at her as well? I won't presume that you are but if that is indeed the case, it's only feeding the fire.
I'm naturally kind of a loud person. Just getting excited about something (w/o anger), I can approach volumes that some could consider yelling. When we were dating, through maybe the first year of our marriage, I would yell back, though I'm pretty good about controlling it these days. I have cussed at her, but it's pretty rare - I would say that as I controlled the yelling, I controlled that, too.
She is pretty sensitive to yelling, or any kind of stern tone. There have been arguments when she's told me to stop yelling (though I wasn't yelling) and as I repeatedly spoke in softer and softer tones (down to a whisper in some cases), she would still say that I was yelling. After a while, I began to believe that at level, it was more of a control/avoidance mechanism than an actual issue with the volume.
<back later>
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/5/2009 10:52:32 PM
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relady
Posts: 681
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
Status: offline
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quote:
She's decided that she's ready to start having kids and I'm wondering how on earth I can raise a family with someone who basically treats me like I'm a servant, disregards me at every turn, and handles stress and lack of sleep so poorly that I think the only reason the last 6 months have been as good as they have been (which is mediocre) is because we got a new mattress. Well, I probably don't have to tell you this, Dan, because you always seem like a reasonable, rational person, but I'm going to just throw it out there anyway. If she treats you this way there is a very high degree of probability that she will also treat your children this way. I would not recommend children in such an environment.
I was married -- in another life many many years ago -- to a man much like your wife. I tried everything to keep him happy. Appeasement is a word that comes to mind, LOL. He only became more and more demanding, jealous, and insecure. Of course, insecurity is a self-fulfilling prophecy if allowed to germinate and grow. He finally killed every bit of love I ever felt for him. During our very tumultuous 4.5 years he basically tried to demand that I quit my job and stay home and have children. Children was one subject I absolutely steadfastly refused to give in on and to this day I am SO GLAD I didn't have a child with him. Of course, we are divorced and I have not seen or heard from him in about 28 years. I know you don't feel this way about your wife at this point....but for me, the divorce from him was simply a way of rectifying the absolute worst mistake I have made in my entire life. That I didn't complicate that bad, bad decision with children has always been a comfort.
OK, so you got my life story in a paragraph. Mostly, Ij ust wanted to say that your wife reminds me a LOT of my former husband. Wouldn't go to counseling because ALL of our problems were my fault. If I was just a better wife everything would be better, blah, blah, blah. If you feel you are doing your best, don't buy into that nonsense, cause it ain't true, dude.l
I am so sorry to see you going through this. My thoughts & prayers are with you.
Sue
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RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/5/2009 10:52:51 PM
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a_sparrow
Posts: 569
Joined: 6/20/2006
From: Los Angeles
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quote:
Practically speaking, I'm not sure how to convert a boundary from protecting me to protecting us.
I'm not benelchi, but I don't know how you can protect your wife at this point, other than by assuring her that your love for her is permanent and unconditional. Even if you do this (which you certainly should), she may be too damaged at this time to accept that what you are saying is true.
Boundaries, even if you initially set them to protect yourself, can restore a sense of sanity and order and can help you think more clearly, which can only help you to manage your home. Also, perhaps more importantly, it can't ultimately hurt your wife to see that someone in the home, the leader of the home, actually, thinks that other things need to be attended to/worried about other than her own immediate desires. In other words, she should see that you matter, too, or at least, that you think you matter; if she can't accept this, she'll never begin to able to accept the needs of any children you may have. It is not unusual for people have anger issues and throw fits, but most of these people have to deal with the existence of others' priorities, even though they might prefer not to. It is abnormal for a person to succeed in using tantrums and rages to create an environment in which she knows she'll never have to worry about anyone else's needs, because she's conditioned everyone to cater constantly to her. Neither of you will benefit if you allow her to create such an environment in your home, and your future children will suffer tremendously, and may adopt her selfish patterns of relating, as they appear to work well. I've seen this, and it is devastating to all, including the selfish woman who never matures emotionally beyond the level of a 5-year-old.
quote:
It seems to me that for boundaries to really work, both parties need to maintain at least some sort of rationality about the whole thing.
Boundaries, especially with someone like this, will be a non-starter if you ask for permission, because it is unlikely to be granted. She may make a huge fuss, but it is important for her (and for you) to know that she cannot make the world stand still by throwing a fit.
quote:
as I repeatedly spoke in softer and softer tones (down to a whisper in some cases), she would still say that I was yelling. After a while, I began to believe that at level, it was more of a control/avoidance mechanism than an actual issue with the volume.
Bingo. That's exactly what it is. This is so similar to stuff I've dealt with that it's uncanny.
_____________________________
Elizabeth
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RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/6/2009 9:39:44 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
That's really interesting. How does this apply when the offender see the "victim" as the person at fault for both the original offense and the subsequent outbursts? It seems to me that for boundaries to really work, both parties need to maintain at least some sort of rationality about the whole thing. Practically speaking, I'm not sure how to convert a boundary from protecting me to protecting us.
Sometimes the outward actions are not that much different and sometimes the outward actions will be very different; however, the attitude of the heart will always be very different when it is an attitude motivated by love for our spouse. For example, taking the time to discuss ways to disengage when things get too hot before you are in the midst of one of those hot moments and looking for ways to disengage that still communicate to your spouse that you still deeply love them. It can mean being willing to adapt if those methods of disengaging aren't working even when you cannot see the reason why the method you have chosen isn't working. It can mean being the first one to say I am sorry even when you believe the greatest offenses were committed by your spouse. It can mean something as simple as lovingly hugging your spouse when you know they need that, even if it feels like the last thing you want to do at the moment. It means taking the time to genuinely pray for your wife and your marriage and asking God to help you demonstrate love especially when you need his strength to do so. It means setting aside our "right" to be angry and choosing to love instead.
I will be praying for you and your wife.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/6/2009 12:09:20 PM
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hnt
Posts: 667
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
Sometimes the outward actions are not that much different and sometimes the outward actions will be very different; however, the attitude of the heart will always be very different when it is an attitude motivated by love for our spouse. For example, taking the time to discuss ways to disengage when things get too hot before you are in the midst of one of those hot moments and looking for ways to disengage that still communicate to your spouse that you still deeply love them.
That sounds reasonable benelchi. Its when you have an adult that will agree to that before the heat of the moment, and makes you pay for the agreement at the heated time? Some people are not capable of that. They see the disengagement at the time as a threat.
The sad part is? When they cool off they still refuse to face it. Pointing the agreement out - even as nice and calm and loving as possible - can set off another fight.
It seems when any height of anxiety comes - they use it! I realize that is hard to wrap your mind around, but there are people like that. Its mind boggling!
quote:
It can mean being willing to adapt if those methods of disengaging aren't working even when you cannot see the reason why the method you have chosen isn't working. It can mean being the first one to say I am sorry even when you believe the greatest offenses were committed by your spouse. It can mean something as simple as lovingly hugging your spouse when you know they need that, even if it feels like the last thing you want to do at the moment.
You have to be very careful with someone that can't face the reality of things when you mention 'sorry'. You don't want them to feel justified. Hugging them? That would make them mad at times. You would be condescending to them. I realize that sounds strange, but we aren't speaking about someone that reacts as most do.
That is the mind bending part!
quote:
It means taking the time to genuinely pray for your wife and your marriage and asking God to help you demonstrate love especially when you need his strength to do so. It means setting aside our "right" to be angry and choosing to love instead.
I don't have an issue with praying about things. It certainly does help!
Dealing with your feelings of angry and at times down right confusion need to be dealt with AWAY from your spouse. There is not one way of doing this.
There are times in which you need to leave. I realize abandonment, and SURE she will scream her head off. At that point she isn't rational, and staying will do nothing but escalate things at times. You need at least one calm head between the two. The leaving isn't out of angry or getting back, or anything like that. Its to help calmer heads prevail. You can't talk sense or be rational with a person that is acting irrational, and can't come down from that. You are the fuel for her fire at that point. Its a very strange type of interaction.
When you step back? You can see the sheer brokenness within them. The first couple of times you disengage with them - they will be more than angry. The deal is? They don't feel better about you being there, and being their whipping boy either! There truly is no GOOD way - staying or leaving. It will help the loving attitude you speak of benelchi when you have to some distance to help keep the calm.
_____________________________
h
Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/6/2009 12:30:01 PM
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bolt.
Posts: 1762
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: Canada
Status: online
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The reason 'your' boundaries end up 'protecting' your spouse is because they show her the truth of reality.
Your boundaries might induce her to get into herself and find the ways of self control and emotional management.
> That would make her a happier person with a more pleasant life overall, wouldn't it? That's your gift to her.
That sort of thing might make you happier to be married to her, and result in a less tense marriage. It would at least make it more likely that you-two would stay married, and she would not have to traverse a divorce and divorcee-hood, right? That's your gift to her.
> That would lead to greater feelings of fulfillment and security for her, wouldn't it? That's your gift to her.
And of course, if things settle out well, you will probably agree to conception activities.
> That would mean she might realize her desire to become a mother. Right? That's your gift to her.
And if that's the way it goes, she will probably have self skills and other resources to draw on during the tough times of parenting.
> That would make parenting not so tough, wouldn't it? That's your gift to her.
That's how your willingness to set individual boundaries without permission is for her good, and with the goal of protecting you both from the distress of a much more painful future. Of course, how she responds to your boundaries is her choice -- but you are giving her the opportunity for the good life, if she wants to take it. That's why you have to be willing to do something that causes her pain in the meantime. It's not just her pain for your benefit. It might turn out well on her side too.
_____________________________
Are you having trouble getting your daily dose of the life changing Word of God?
Let my friend Brian at Daily Audio Bible help you too.
>>audio link<<
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RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/6/2009 1:59:35 PM
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myka
Posts: 981
Status: offline
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quote:
That's really interesting. How does this apply when the offender see the "victim" as the person at fault for both the original offense and the subsequent outbursts? It seems to me that for boundaries to really work, both parties need to maintain at least some sort of rationality about the whole thing. Practically speaking, I'm not sure how to convert a boundary from protecting me to protecting us.
Boundaries don't have to have rationality about them. Ideally, both parties would be able to discuss problems kindly and lovingly with gentleness and 'rationality'. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen at some times during marriage. One person can refuse to participate in the vicious cycle of yelling/acquiescence which causes a disruption in the 'way we deal with things'. Because the cycle is fed by both parties, one party can cause a change.
Boundaries sometimes help one person more than another. For instance, I have a young child who sometimes gets upset/angry with other people. The best thing that I can do for her and for myself to have a positive way of interacting is to put her in 'time out'. It helps her to calm down and prevents me from escalating to anger in response to her.
I think I should mention that the 4-5th years of marriage are very difficult from what I've experienced as well as from my friends' experiences.
Blessings to you, Dan.
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RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/6/2009 2:46:09 PM
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manda59
Posts: 8228
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
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Dan
Maybe you missed my post here?
quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
I chalked it up to either pre-existing issues w/ her mom (of which there were a few)
Dan, are these issues with her mom resolved or are they ongoing?
Also, could I just ask about the counsellor you have been seeing so far - what training and qualifications they have, what counselling model they use.
_____________________________
"Manda.....you said what I tried to say, just much better"
sharonjef, October 2009
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RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/6/2009 10:59:25 PM
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a_sparrow
Posts: 569
Joined: 6/20/2006
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
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quote:
The reason 'your' boundaries end up 'protecting' your spouse is because they show her the truth of reality.
Yes; that's it exactly.
_____________________________
Elizabeth
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RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/7/2009 7:57:24 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3044
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
Dan, are these issues with her mom resolved or are they ongoing?
For the most part, they're resolved. They had some sort of sit-down a few years ago and hashed some things out.
quote:
Also, could I just ask about the counsellor you have been seeing so far - what training and qualifications they have, what counselling model they use.
I'm honestly not sure what model he uses. Beyond his Ed.D. and his state license, I don't know what his qualifications are either. It was difficult just finding somebody who could meet both of us. Because of where we live & work, mid-day sessions are basically out of the question, and everybody else is vying for evening & weekend slots, too.
-Dan.
< Message edited by iluvatar -- 10/7/2009 8:10:52 AM >
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/8/2009 7:08:51 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3044
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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Our counseling was last night. The issue of children didn't come up. But what did come up was something that she's said the last few times - that her resentment/bad feelings towards me mostly stem from my deficiencies as a spiritual leader - that I'm not the man/head of the household she wanted/expected me to be.
I will (and have) admit that I struggle with both spirituality and leadership - neither come naturally to me, though I have been trying to practice leadership/management skills a little bit, here and there at work, as situations would allow. Any time I read anything related to spirituality (e.g. nature of God, prayer, etc), I generally find myself thinking, "Yeah, ok, I already know that. So what?" In other cases, I've found Christian books to be rather trite and superficial. I have found some interesting insights in a marriage book we've been reading together, but that's the exception rather than the rule.
Generally speaking, leadership is something I'm not particularly comfortable with - even when conditions (people, situation, level of knowledge & experience) are favorable. Conditions at home are not favorable. It's a struggle to "lead" in simple things like cleaning the house or planning what to do on a Saturday - not because I can't plan things out, but because she just wants to do (or not do) things her way. How to lead in the area of spirituality - an area in which I seem to know a lot of facts, but don't really "get" what so many other people seem to - is very confusing to me.
Additionally, there's the fact that using my inadequacies in this area to justify/explain her resentment & treatment of me is grossly hypocritical (if this is actually the "cause" in the first place, of which I am doubtful). That just makes me suspicious of her and makes me feel like I'm just jumping through another hoop on my quest to make her happy. I understand and appreciate that I should progress in this issue independent of everything else, and I have committed to work on it - if for no other reason than it's the right thing to do. But I still feel guarded and resentful - it's hard to take seriously these concerns if they're doled out by a person who regularly skips church because she doesn't want to get out of bed and who, one evening, was reading the Bible in bed, put the Bible away, rolled over and called you an <expletive>. 
-Dan.
< Message edited by iluvatar -- 10/8/2009 7:18:19 AM >
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/8/2009 10:48:56 AM
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bolt.
Posts: 1762
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: Canada
Status: online
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You are quite right in identifying her talk about your leadership deficincies as hypocritical and mostly an excuse and a diverion. I can assure you that your counselor (if he or she has any perception) probably used the whole session to observe if or when you were going to call her on that and may your point of view clear. My guess is that you chose not to... or maybe you said something pretty brief and diplomatic.
However it is a very useful excuse -- since she is claiming to believe it (and may at some level believe it, as part of her permission-to-behave badly reasoning) then she must make at least some effort to react if you try.
By the way, I do not believe in the universal aplication of the idea of male family leadership (If you want to hear why, I'll send you a PM) but I do believe that every relationship needs some leadership, and you are obviously more qualified than her simply by virtue of being emotionally stable and reasonably godly. And she's said that she is willing to work with a leadership model that places you in that position. It's time to step up before the leadership that is currently going on ends up dishonouring both your covenant and your God.
So... leadership lessons for those who are not-so-inclined towards it naturally. (Anybody can do it. I've been an officer for cadets for years. If all 20 of a group of 13 year olds can pick up the basic externals of leadership, you can too.)
(1) Personal Bearing - to be percieved as a leader, you must (a) stand straight (b) speak clearly and to the point (c) look people in the eye, and (d) dress in a manner that evokes cultural expectations of authority.
The fruit of the Spirit that upholds this is self-control. You must be able to keep a striaght face, gather your thoughts, evaluate them, and speak your mind in a way that is likely to accomplish your goals.
(2) Have an idea of what you want to accomplish - it does not have to be a strategic plan, just a guiding idea. It sounds to me that you want a marriage and a home that is stable, peaceable, and free from abuse.
The basis for that goal is love (also a fruit of the Spirit) to have this as your guiding idea is to have the good of your wife close to your heart. It is this that gives you the motivation to instigate some moments that are not peaceful, in order to get yourselves to a peacable future.
The method for that goal is patience (OK these fruit of the Spirit really fit) having a guiding idea is not the same as being driven to acomplish it ASAP. It's just about knowing what the point of the hard work is, so that we don't get frustrated, tired or off track.
(3) Normalization - this is in how you act. One of the most powerful methods of leadership is to presume that people will act in keeping with your values, and be 'surprised and confused' (in a clear-speaking way) when they do not. It throws them off balance and helps them to grasp that your values are so obvious, so 'normal' (in a Christian marriage) that they don't know what they were thinking before.
(4) Accountablity - if you want to lead, you can not accept the evaluation of your follower as the substance of your accountability. Set your own standards (by being in the Bible and in Christ in prayer) and be very clear and strightforward about evaluating these. The standards themselves should be clear and concrete, and it should be easy to tell if you have lived up to them or not.
Standards are not high. They are always attainable. When you attain them easily, you move them. The 'high standards' stuff is really goal setting, which is fine... but accountability is not for goals -- it's for the attainable element of the standard. Base your initial set of standards on being better than you are now, not on what you want to eventually be.
When you violate your own standards, you might need to write it down, or tell someone (someone removed from the situation who will encourage, but not advise you), or even post it here. You will also need to confess (aknowledge the truth of it) to God, and possibly repent (if it is sin). (There is no need to seek forgiveness, you stand forgiven.) If the situation warrents it, you may also need to render an appology to your wife, if your violation involved her or effected her (again, not seek her forgiveness, just to do the proper thing for the sake of your own accountability).
(5) Boundaries - there must be some things that you will not stay in the same room with. Your presence is the symbol of your acceptance of the behaviour. You can not accept everything, but there is no need to be harsh. There is a time to take a break.
>> OK, let me know if these make sense to you, try them out and see how they work out. <<
Feel free to ask questions if I'm not clear.
_____________________________
Are you having trouble getting your daily dose of the life changing Word of God?
Let my friend Brian at Daily Audio Bible help you too.
>>audio link<<
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RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/8/2009 4:31:11 PM
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myka
Posts: 981
Status: offline
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quote:
But what did come up was something that she's said the last few times - that her resentment/bad feelings towards me mostly stem from my deficiencies as a spiritual leader - that I'm not the man/head of the household she wanted/expected me to be.
Did she explain what 'being a spiritual leader' looks like to her? If not, have you asked?
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RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/9/2009 12:31:54 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3044
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: myka
Did she explain what 'being a spiritual leader' looks like to her?
Mostly leading prayer & devotions.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bolt.
>> OK, let me know if these make sense to you, try them out and see how they work out. <<
Feel free to ask questions if I'm not clear.
Interesting. It all makes sense right now, but I'll think about it more.
Thanks again, everybody.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/9/2009 7:01:03 AM
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cposey
Posts: 314
Joined: 8/20/2009
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I can tell you from my own walk with the Lord if you want to see how to be the spiritual leader of the house, read Galations chapter 5 and see what the fruits of the flesh are and the fruits of the Holy Spirit are. Exemplify the Holy Spirit. Another huge learning process for me was studying Joshua and 1 Kings. I read these books with the focus and intent of how do I become the man, husband and father that God wants me to be.
A little side note here why is it that this man feels abused and yet no one has said get yourself outta there. Isn't that the reaction if the shoe were on the other foot?
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RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/9/2009 7:06:40 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3044
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bolt.
You are quite right in identifying her talk about your leadership deficincies as hypocritical and mostly an excuse and a diverion. I can assure you that your counselor (if he or she has any perception) probably used the whole session to observe if or when you were going to call her on that and may your point of view clear. My guess is that you chose not to... or maybe you said something pretty brief and diplomatic.
Actually, no - just the opposite. I've been very clear in our sessions that while I believe that, independent of everything else, I should address this, it does not or should not explain/justify her behaviors & resentment, and that it's basically being used as an excuse. I've actually been expecting him to sit there, watch, and then ultimately say something. This past time, I even asked him how he, not having witnessed us at home, would tell the difference between something that actually is a cause/trigger and something that's being used as an excuse. He said that since she's been so clear about this for so long, that leads him towards thinking that it likely is this. He said that, generally speaking, any sort of unfulfilled expectation (e.g. sex, kids, etc) could be a breeding ground for resentment.
In some sense, I understand that he'd have some difficulty seeing what I'm talking about. I say, "she's really stressed out by work and a completely different, happier person when she's home sick." She responds, "No I'm not, you're imagining things." Also, most things have fairly calm for 6 months or so, so I'm reduced to saying, "I'm afraid she'll go back to doing <this> or <that> if she gets stressed out again."
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/9/2009 10:28:12 AM
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myka
Posts: 981
Status: offline
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quote:
I will (and have) admit that I struggle with both spirituality and leadership - neither come naturally to me, though I have been trying to practice leadership/management skills a little bit, here and there at work, as situations would allow. Any time I read anything related to spirituality (e.g. nature of God, prayer, etc), I generally find myself thinking, "Yeah, ok, I already know that. So what?" In other cases, I've found Christian books to be rather trite and superficial. I have found some interesting insights in a marriage book we've been reading together, but that's the exception rather than the rule.
I don't think she expects you to have all the answers -- most of us don't... What specifically are you reading? - I'll admit that there are a lot of Christian books that are trite and unchallenging.
Maybe if you saw 'leadership' as more of an including her in your spiritual life instead of needing to have the answers... Asking if you could pray together, or talking about something that you've read.
There is a book that I read a couple of years ago, "Faith Tango" by Craig and Carolyn Williford. They talk about changing their views on what "spiritual leadership" looks like.
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RE: Verbal abuse & ?Manipulation? - 10/9/2009 12:35:53 PM
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letusreason
Posts: 1143
Joined: 8/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
Our counseling was last night. The issue of children didn't come up. But what did come up was something that she's said the last few times - that her resentment/bad feelings towards me mostly stem from my deficiencies as a spiritual leader - that I'm not the man/head of the household she wanted/expected me to be.
I will (and have) admit that I struggle with both spirituality and leadership - neither come naturally to me, though I have been trying to practice leadership/management skills a little bit, here and there at work, as situations would allow. Any time I read anything related to spirituality (e.g. nature of God, prayer, etc), I generally find myself thinking, "Yeah, ok, I already know that. So what?" In other cases, I've found Christian books to be rather trite and superficial. I have found some interesting insights in a marriage book we've been reading together, but that's the exception rather than the rule.
Generally speaking, leadership is something I'm not particularly comfortable with - even when conditions (people, situation, level of knowledge & experience) are favorable. Conditions at home are not favorable. It's a struggle to "lead" in simple things like cleaning the house or planning what to do on a Saturday - not because I can't plan things out, but because she just wants to do (or not do) things her way. How to lead in the area of spirituality - an area in which I seem to know a lot of facts, but don't really "get" what so many other people seem to - is very confusing to me.
Additionally, there's the fact that using my inadequacies in this area to justify/explain her resentment & treatment of me is grossly hypocritical (if this is actually the "cause" in the first place, of which I am doubtful). That just makes me suspicious of her and makes me feel like I'm just jumping through another hoop on my quest to make her happy. I understand and appreciate that I should progress in this issue independent of everything else, and I have committed to work on it - if for no other reason than it's the right thing to do. But I still feel guarded and resentful - it's hard to take seriously these concerns if they're doled out by a person who regularly skips church because she doesn't want to get out of bed and who, one evening, was reading the Bible in bed, put the Bible away, rolled over and called you an <expletive>.
-Dan.
Wash her feet , that'll shut her up.
I'm joking but serious.
The reactions you express remind me a lot of what is talked about on loveandrespect.com and Smalley's THE DNA of Relationships. In the second, he talks about how people react to each other out of fear.
In the first the mention how when wife doesn't feel love, she reacts with disrespect, when he doesn't feel respected, he reacts without love, thus a vicious cycle.
_____________________________
Proverbs 16:2
All the ways of a man are clean in his own sight, But the LORD weighs the motives.
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