|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 condone rape? - 10/4/2009 9:57:35 PM
|
|
|
Sonrise
Posts: 107
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline
|
I'm witnessing to someone online, and she's become really open to Gods word over the least month or so, having even gone to church by herself a few times. She recently brought up this verse that a person very hostile to Christianity gave her:
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver.
She's really worried that it condones rape. i know this is the NIV version, but she's not even saved yet, and that will only seem like a semantical justification. Also, she was curious about the context of these verses:
Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
Numbers 31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
If anyone can help explain them in a simple way, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 condone rape? - 10/4/2009 10:12:56 PM
|
|
|
bondserv65
Posts: 317
Joined: 5/1/2009
From: Chicago
Status: offline
|
For Deuteronomy 22:28-29
The man is to pay her father 50 shekels of silver AND take her as his wife. In that culture, he had to take her as his wife because she had no other way to survive. It does nto condone rape. Rather this verse accepts the fact that rape happens and provides a provision for raped woman. If you read the verses before that, it addresses rape of a betrothed woman. The man must die. She has done nothing worthy of any punishment at all.
To simplify, i recommend that you teach the person you are discipling to read for herself the verses given in context and to learn a little about the culture. Personally, i would also suggest that she use the scripture given to her by those exhibit ting hostility, for herself and not engage in vain arguments but that is just me....
AS for the others...
There are just some Scripture that one either needs to accept until God gives them peace about it or they need to allow it to be a stumbling block and never give God the chance to answer questions Himself without human interference. i have not reread the other Scriptures in context, but i suspect this is going to be the choice she is faced with.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 condone rape? - 10/5/2009 4:31:17 PM
|
|
|
Sonrise
Posts: 107
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: bondserv65
For Deuteronomy 22:28-29
The man is to pay her father 50 shekels of silver AND take her as his wife. In that culture, he had to take her as his wife because she had no other way to survive. It does nto condone rape. Rather this verse accepts the fact that rape happens and provides a provision for raped woman. If you read the verses before that, it addresses rape of a betrothed woman. The man must die. She has done nothing worthy of any punishment at all.
To simplify, i recommend that you teach the person you are discipling to read for herself the verses given in context and to learn a little about the culture. Personally, i would also suggest that she use the scripture given to her by those exhibit ting hostility, for herself and not engage in vain arguments but that is just me....
AS for the others...
There are just some Scripture that one either needs to accept until God gives them peace about it or they need to allow it to be a stumbling block and never give God the chance to answer questions Himself without human interference. i have not reread the other Scriptures in context, but i suspect this is going to be the choice she is faced with.
So all a rapist had to do was pay the victims dad 50 shekels and he was off scot free? And why would a rape victim want to marry her rapist; that seems like double the crime.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 condone rape? - 10/5/2009 5:12:29 PM
|
|
|
northstar
Posts: 189
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sonrise
quote:
ORIGINAL: bondserv65
For Deuteronomy 22:28-29
The man is to pay her father 50 shekels of silver AND take her as his wife. In that culture, he had to take her as his wife because she had no other way to survive. It does nto condone rape. Rather this verse accepts the fact that rape happens and provides a provision for raped woman. If you read the verses before that, it addresses rape of a betrothed woman. The man must die. She has done nothing worthy of any punishment at all.
To simplify, i recommend that you teach the person you are discipling to read for herself the verses given in context and to learn a little about the culture. Personally, i would also suggest that she use the scripture given to her by those exhibit ting hostility, for herself and not engage in vain arguments but that is just me....
AS for the others...
There are just some Scripture that one either needs to accept until God gives them peace about it or they need to allow it to be a stumbling block and never give God the chance to answer questions Himself without human interference. i have not reread the other Scriptures in context, but i suspect this is going to be the choice she is faced with.
So all a rapist had to do was pay the victims dad 50 shekels and he was off scot free? And why would a rape victim want to marry her rapist; that seems like double the crime.
Scot free? Hardly. He had to pay the bride price, take her as his wife, and NEVER divorce her, and look after her for the rest of his life.
Perhaps it's not so much about that though, as convincing any would be rapist that it's just not worth it, with the cost of the bride price and lifelong commitment to his intended victim. Perhaps that law is off-putting to a rapist, as well as physically caring for a woman who no one else would want after she was defiled.
King David's daughter followed the law after she was raped. She said to him, 'don't send me away now, that would be even worse than the first evil you did. Ask my father, for he will surely not withhold me from you (in marriage).' (That's off the top of my head, so won't be word for word). The point is, that as the victim she was willing to obey the law of God and be married to the guy. He said no and sent her away anyway. She ended up desolate in her brother Absolam's house, and her rapist ended up dead, killed by Absolam for raping her.
I'm sure either not raping her, or marrying her afterwards would have been preferable to being dead.
_____________________________
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Psalm 122:6
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 condone rape? - 10/5/2009 5:15:45 PM
|
|
|
bondserv65
Posts: 317
Joined: 5/1/2009
From: Chicago
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sonrise
quote:
ORIGINAL: bondserv65
For Deuteronomy 22:28-29
The man is to pay her father 50 shekels of silver AND take her as his wife. In that culture, he had to take her as his wife because she had no other way to survive. It does nto condone rape. Rather this verse accepts the fact that rape happens and provides a provision for raped woman. If you read the verses before that, it addresses rape of a betrothed woman. The man must die. She has done nothing worthy of any punishment at all.
To simplify, i recommend that you teach the person you are discipling to read for herself the verses given in context and to learn a little about the culture. Personally, i would also suggest that she use the scripture given to her by those exhibit ting hostility, for herself and not engage in vain arguments but that is just me....
AS for the others...
There are just some Scripture that one either needs to accept until God gives them peace about it or they need to allow it to be a stumbling block and never give God the chance to answer questions Himself without human interference. i have not reread the other Scriptures in context, but i suspect this is going to be the choice she is faced with.
So all a rapist had to do was pay the victims dad 50 shekels and he was off scot free? And why would a rape victim want to marry her rapist; that seems like double the crime.
Sonrise,
It is clear you do not understand their culture. The man marrying the woman was PROVISION. no one else is going to h ave her after she has been "defiled" and she can't just go out and get a construction job or even a school teacher or a nurse. When women were found to be NOT a virgin upon marriage they were KILLED. God demands a dowry to the father and for the rapist to PROVIDE for the woman for the rest of her life. That is hardly scott free. If the dude wanted to marry her, he would have done it in the first place. It was a patriarchal society in which males got nearly everything they wanted. This is really not hard stuff. All one has to do is realize that those to whom this law was written did not live in 21st century american society.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 condone rape? - 10/5/2009 7:37:55 PM
|
|
|
solarflare
Posts: 1522
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline
|
No. It doesn't. I don't think you really think it does either.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 condone rape? - 10/5/2009 8:25:55 PM
|
|
|
benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sonrise
I'm witnessing to someone online, and she's become really open to Gods word over the least month or so, having even gone to church by herself a few times. She recently brought up this verse that a person very hostile to Christianity gave her:
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver.
She's really worried that it condones rape. i know this is the NIV version, but she's not even saved yet, and that will only seem like a semantical justification. Also, she was curious about the context of these verses:
Unfortunately, the NIV's translation of "rape" in this verse is not accurate; what is being described in this verse is more akin to what we would call "statutory rape" i.e. rape between a man and a willing woman who is not in a position to "legally" consent. Notice that the conclusion of this verse is in the 3rd person when it talks about THEM being discovered i.e. this was a sin in which THEY BOTH participated. Other indications can be seen in the preceding verses i.e. if a man FINDS a betrothed woman in the city and sleeps with her and she doesn't scream they are both put to death because it is assumed that she consented; the only time the idea of "forced sex" is seen in the Hebrew is when it speaks of a betrothed woman who is forced to have sex outside of the city and in this case only it is assumed the woman screamed but no one heard her. In each of these cases addressed in this passage a different Hebrew verb is used to describe what happened, and in the clear case of "rape" the sentence was death. This can be seen much easier in other versions like the NASB.
"If there is a girl who is a virgin engaged to a man, and another man finds her in the city and lies with her, then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city, and the man, because he has violated his neighbor's wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you. "But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die. "But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case. "When he found her in the field, the engaged girl cried out, but there was no one to save her. "If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days. (Deu 22:23-29 NAU)
Note: the verb 'תפש/to seize' has a very wide range of meaning i.e. it can simply mean 'to dishonor' as it does in Proverbs 30:9 "I may become poor and steal, and so dishonor the name of my God. (Pro 30:9 NIV)
quote:
Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
Numbers 31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
If anyone can help explain them in a simple way, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks
Here we are not dealing with a issue of rape, but only with an issue of who God permitted to live. In the cultures of the Ancient Near East, women were married very young (often at 12 or less) and so the issue here is that God allowed the female children to be preserved and to eventually marry the men of Israel. Part of the issue involved here was do to the extreme corruption of the pagan religions and the propensity for male children to grow up (in that culture) and rebel against those who had captured them. In the culture of the Ancient Near East young women never would rebel against the teachings of God in these circumstances.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 condone rape? - 10/5/2009 9:36:42 PM
|
|
|
Sonrise
Posts: 107
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: northstar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sonrise
quote:
ORIGINAL: bondserv65
For Deuteronomy 22:28-29
The man is to pay her father 50 shekels of silver AND take her as his wife. In that culture, he had to take her as his wife because she had no other way to survive. It does nto condone rape. Rather this verse accepts the fact that rape happens and provides a provision for raped woman. If you read the verses before that, it addresses rape of a betrothed woman. The man must die. She has done nothing worthy of any punishment at all.
To simplify, i recommend that you teach the person you are discipling to read for herself the verses given in context and to learn a little about the culture. Personally, i would also suggest that she use the scripture given to her by those exhibit ting hostility, for herself and not engage in vain arguments but that is just me....
AS for the others...
There are just some Scripture that one either needs to accept until God gives them peace about it or they need to allow it to be a stumbling block and never give God the chance to answer questions Himself without human interference. i have not reread the other Scriptures in context, but i suspect this is going to be the choice she is faced with.
So all a rapist had to do was pay the victims dad 50 shekels and he was off scot free? And why would a rape victim want to marry her rapist; that seems like double the crime.
Scot free? Hardly. He had to pay the bride price, take her as his wife, and NEVER divorce her, and look after her for the rest of his life.
Perhaps it's not so much about that though, as convincing any would be rapist that it's just not worth it, with the cost of the bride price and lifelong commitment to his intended victim. Perhaps that law is off-putting to a rapist, as well as physically caring for a woman who no one else would want after she was defiled.
King David's daughter followed the law after she was raped. She said to him, 'don't send me away now, that would be even worse than the first evil you did. Ask my father, for he will surely not withhold me from you (in marriage).' (That's off the top of my head, so won't be word for word). The point is, that as the victim she was willing to obey the law of God and be married to the guy. He said no and sent her away anyway. She ended up desolate in her brother Absolam's house, and her rapist ended up dead, killed by Absolam for raping her.
I'm sure either not raping her, or marrying her afterwards would have been preferable to being dead.
Again, why would a rape victim want to marry her rapist? Not only does that not seem fair, it seems cruel. What about a serial rapist; would they just keep paying 50 shekels to all of the victims fathers and then marry a harem of women that were his rape victims?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 condone rape? - 10/5/2009 9:39:35 PM
|
|
|
Sonrise
Posts: 107
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: bondserv65
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sonrise
quote:
ORIGINAL: bondserv65
For Deuteronomy 22:28-29
The man is to pay her father 50 shekels of silver AND take her as his wife. In that culture, he had to take her as his wife because she had no other way to survive. It does nto condone rape. Rather this verse accepts the fact that rape happens and provides a provision for raped woman. If you read the verses before that, it addresses rape of a betrothed woman. The man must die. She has done nothing worthy of any punishment at all.
To simplify, i recommend that you teach the person you are discipling to read for herself the verses given in context and to learn a little about the culture. Personally, i would also suggest that she use the scripture given to her by those exhibit ting hostility, for herself and not engage in vain arguments but that is just me....
AS for the others...
There are just some Scripture that one either needs to accept until God gives them peace about it or they need to allow it to be a stumbling block and never give God the chance to answer questions Himself without human interference. i have not reread the other Scriptures in context, but i suspect this is going to be the choice she is faced with.
So all a rapist had to do was pay the victims dad 50 shekels and he was off scot free? And why would a rape victim want to marry her rapist; that seems like double the crime.
Sonrise,
It is clear you do not understand their culture. The man marrying the woman was PROVISION. no one else is going to h ave her after she has been "defiled" and she can't just go out and get a construction job or even a school teacher or a nurse. When women were found to be NOT a virgin upon marriage they were KILLED. God demands a dowry to the father and for the rapist to PROVIDE for the woman for the rest of her life. That is hardly scott free. If the dude wanted to marry her, he would have done it in the first place. It was a patriarchal society in which males got nearly everything they wanted. This is really not hard stuff. All one has to do is realize that those to whom this law was written did not live in 21st century american society.
This sounds very similar to the prevailing wisdom in a large portion of the Muslim community. We routinely condemn them for this, and rightly so. Why was it okay then, to disown a rape victim and even kill her, but it isn't now? I'm not getting the double standard.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 condone rape? - 10/5/2009 9:46:21 PM
|
|
|
Sonrise
Posts: 107
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline
|
Also, imagine if today a judge sentenced a rapist to marry his victim; there would be public outrage and protests galore calling for the judge to be impeached; again, rightfully so. Yet, most of the posters in this thread are stating that that was God's law at the time. Hmmm.....
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 condone rape? - 10/5/2009 11:38:30 PM
|
|
|
bondserv65
Posts: 317
Joined: 5/1/2009
From: Chicago
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sonrise
quote:
ORIGINAL: bondserv65
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sonrise
quote:
ORIGINAL: bondserv65
For Deuteronomy 22:28-29
The man is to pay her father 50 shekels of silver AND take her as his wife. In that culture, he had to take her as his wife because she had no other way to survive. It does No condone rape. Rather this verse accepts the fact that rape happens and provides a provision for raped woman. If you read the verses before that, it addresses rape of a betrothed woman. The man must die. She has done nothing worthy of any punishment at all.
To simplify, i recommend that you teach the person you are discipling to read for herself the verses given in context and to learn a little about the culture. Personally, i would also suggest that she use the scripture given to her by those exhibit ting hostility, for herself and not engage in vain arguments but that is just me....
AS for the others...
There are just some Scripture that one either needs to accept until God gives them peace about it or they need to allow it to be a stumbling block and never give God the chance to answer questions Himself without human interference. i have not reread the other Scriptures in context, but i suspect this is going to be the choice she is faced with.
So all a rapist had to do was pay the victims dad 50 shekels and he was off scot free? And why would a rape victim want to marry her rapist; that seems like double the crime.
Sonrise,
It is clear you do not understand their culture. The man marrying the woman was PROVISION. no one else is going to h ave her after she has been "defiled" and she can't just go out and get a construction job or even a school teacher or a nurse. When women were found to be NOT a virgin upon marriage they were KILLED. God demands a dowry to the father and for the rapist to PROVIDE for the woman for the rest of her life. That is hardly scott free. If the dude wanted to marry her, he would have done it in the first place. It was a patriarchal society in which males got nearly everything they wanted. This is really not hard stuff. All one has to do is realize that those to whom this law was written did not live in 21st century american society.
This sounds very similar to the prevailing wisdom in a large portion of the Muslim community. We routinely condemn them for this, and rightly so. Why was it okay then, to disown a rape victim and even kill her, but it isn't now? I'm not getting the double standard.
:::shrugs::: if you do not like the God of the Bible there are many others out there to choose from. Keep the ancients in the culture of 21st century america if it helps you to believe what you are determined to believe then.
< Message edited by bondserv65 -- 10/5/2009 11:48:37 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 condone rape? - 10/6/2009 12:42:02 AM
|
|
|
benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
|
quote:
:::shrugs::: if you do not like the God of the Bible there are many others out there to choose from. Keep the ancients in the culture of 21st century america if it helps you to believe what you are determined to believe then.
I think that he recognizes that the God of the bible is not the God you described.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 condone rape? - 10/6/2009 12:43:57 AM
|
|
|
bondserv65
Posts: 317
Joined: 5/1/2009
From: Chicago
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
:::shrugs::: if you do not like the God of the Bible there are many others out there to choose from. Keep the ancients in the culture of 21st century america if it helps you to believe what you are determined to believe then.
I think that he recognizes that the God of the bible is not the God you described.
OK
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 condone rape? - 10/7/2009 4:52:02 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2927
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sonrise
This sounds very similar to the prevailing wisdom in a large portion of the Muslim community. We routinely condemn them for this, and rightly so. Why was it okay then, to disown a rape victim and even kill her, but it isn't now? I'm not getting the double standard.
I can not speak to what the Koran says. However, as bondserv65 points out one must underrstand "their" culture. Any sex with a maiden would be considered rape, since a maiden is not able to make a vow without her father's approval. The maiden does not necessarily have to marry the "rapist". Her father's approval is still needed. However, the "rapist" is not free from the brideprice even if he is not allowed to marry her.
In a culture where a woman is free to have sex with anyone at any time under any circumstance and can choose to be provided for by the government, it is probably difficult to understand a culture that actually recognizes the fact that there are at least three people involved in every pregnancy. This is what needs to be explained to the person you are talking to.
Before one can even begin discussing Adonai's ways, one must have an understanding of the relationship between actions and accountability that the Scriptures teach. Since, the relationship between the two has been strained if not broken in the culture of the USA, this requires something more involved than the "Roman road" or "four spiritual laws". This is why many jewish people are reluctant talk to those who are not jewish. It can be a bit of a burden to explain Adonai's ways without starting at the beginning. Therefore, if this person is truly interested, I suggest that you offer to go through the Scriptures with them in a more systematic way, say begiining to end, rather than hit and miss out of context.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/7/2009 4:58:51 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 condone rape? - 10/10/2009 10:59:53 PM
|
|
|
Sonrise
Posts: 107
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sonrise
This sounds very similar to the prevailing wisdom in a large portion of the Muslim community. We routinely condemn them for this, and rightly so. Why was it okay then, to disown a rape victim and even kill her, but it isn't now? I'm not getting the double standard.
I can not speak to what the Koran says. However, as bondserv65 points out one must underrstand "their" culture. Any sex with a maiden would be considered rape, since a maiden is not able to make a vow without her father's approval. The maiden does not necessarily have to marry the "rapist". Her father's approval is still needed. However, the "rapist" is not free from the brideprice even if he is not allowed to marry her.
In a culture where a woman is free to have sex with anyone at any time under any circumstance and can choose to be provided for by the government, it is probably difficult to understand a culture that actually recognizes the fact that there are at least three people involved in every pregnancy. This is what needs to be explained to the person you are talking to.
Before one can even begin discussing Adonai's ways, one must have an understanding of the relationship between actions and accountability that the Scriptures teach. Since, the relationship between the two has been strained if not broken in the culture of the USA, this requires something more involved than the "Roman road" or "four spiritual laws". This is why many jewish people are reluctant talk to those who are not jewish. It can be a bit of a burden to explain Adonai's ways without starting at the beginning. Therefore, if this person is truly interested, I suggest that you offer to go through the Scriptures with them in a more systematic way, say begiining to end, rather than hit and miss out of context.
There is no option, read it again: Deuteronomy 22:28-29
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver.
It doesn't say, "The man can, if he feels like it, pay 50 shekels and take her as his wife." It is a commandment. Also, there is nothing in this verse anywhere that mentions an option for the woman. As for your last paragraph, I have to be honest and admit that I really don't understand a word of it. Again, as a Christian, I and I would imagine, all believers would be appalled if a judge ordered a rapist to marry his victim; there would be protest marches and a call for his impeachment; but you're telling me that God use to order it? I'm not buying it.
< Message edited by Sonrise -- 10/10/2009 11:06:50 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 condone rape? - 10/11/2009 10:53:49 AM
|
|
|
LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2231
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sonrise
Again, why would a rape victim want to marry her rapist? Not only does that not seem fair, it seems cruel. What about a serial rapist; would they just keep paying 50 shekels to all of the victims fathers and then marry a harem of women that were his rape victims?
You’re not reading it correctly
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
First of all the verse applies to a virgin, who was NOT betrothed…..not a harlot.
Go back and read the beginning of post 7
When rape of a virgin occurs…. the violation is a violation of the consummation of marriage, and the man was simply put to death
…..There is no indication in verse 28 that the encounter was not by mutual consent because of what is written in verse 28-29.
This meant in like manner by LAW… when the man and the virgin were “discovered” …the man was bound to her and had to marry her…
HERE IS WHY!
if they were not discovered and the women went and married another and that man found her “not to be a virgin ”… she would have been divorced or even stoned to death.
So in verse 28-29 we see that the man “paid the price to father for the bride” … which was in opposite of the dowry paid by the girls father
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 condone rape? - 10/11/2009 11:59:43 AM
|
|
|
GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
|
I am not aware of any term in the original language for "statutory rape." It is just rape, period. She is a virgin and under the care of her father, financially and authoritatively. If she were so young that she would not be in a position to consent even if she were willing to do so. Customs being what they were, her legal standing to independently consent would likely be nil.
(I am not well studied in this passage nor any knowledge of Hebrew but that looks like that's some of the posters are saying here.)
The loss of prestige and finacial return to the father would be significant because now he has no alternative nor any say in even helping set her up for a better partner. The major violator is the rapist since he has more financial power than the girl. Someone who has not reached the age of consent would not be considered.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 condone rape? - 10/11/2009 3:58:19 PM
|
|
|
LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2231
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
(I am not well studied in this passage nor any knowledge of Hebrew but that looks like that's some of the posters are saying here.)
Actually a clearer definition in principal can be seen here
Da 9:27 - Show Context
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation , and ...that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The determination in verse 28-29 of Deut 28 was based on the consummation... as was the marriage contract in the OT.
Think of the consummation in the aspect of a seal, or something being sealed, so as to enacts a point of judgment, in marriage it seals the marriage and in prophecy is seals the end.
….So the above in Daniel would best be understood by saying ... that as the one that is being spoken of as the one who shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and = (in addition to that)...for the …overspreading of abominations = (or by result thereof by causing the sacrifice and the oblation to cease) ...
.....he shall make… it ... (= the covenant) ...desolate.
So in like manner the consummation is that seal that determines when that judgment for doing so will be poured upon the desolate
So the violation in Deut 28 is a violation of a seal of marriage which is determined by the consummation of the marriage that occurred beforehand.
Therefore in like manner… the law reflected that violation by the end note… and therefore the man was married to her
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 condone rape? - 10/11/2009 5:12:55 PM
|
|
|
GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
(I am not well studied in this passage nor any knowledge of Hebrew but that looks like that's some of the posters are saying here.)
Actually a clearer definition in principal can be seen here
Sorry. I thought you did better in your earlier post (#16). That one, I thought made sense. I have no idea what you are getting from this.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 condone rape? - 10/11/2009 9:42:28 PM
|
|
|
benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
I am not aware of any term in the original language for "statutory rape." It is just rape, period.
There is no Hebrew word for rape at all, and there are two different verbs in this passage that are translated 'rape' in some (but not all) translations. The one in this verse like does imply what we today would call "statutory rape" i.e. a rape where a young woman consented but legally had no right to consent. It is important to look at the language of each scenario described and the punishment for each case in context.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 condone rape? - 10/12/2009 3:43:50 PM
|
|
|
LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2231
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
(I am not well studied in this passage nor any knowledge of Hebrew but that looks like that's some of the posters are saying here.)
Actually a clearer definition in principal can be seen here
Sorry. I thought you did better in your earlier post (#16). That one, I thought made sense. I have no idea what you are getting from this.
Greetings
quote:
Actually a clearer definition in principal can be seen here
Just helping ya look at the Hebrew... without all the mess...
Although Daniel is a bit off Hebrew...There is a contrast in the judgments in Daniel 9 and Deut 28
Gotta remember the passage is describing a virgin who was not betrothed ... =not a harlot,
Da 9:27 - Show Context
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation , and ...that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The determination (the judgment) in verse 28-29 of Deut 28 and was based on the consummation that occurred beforehand... that sealed to 2 in marriage
The consummation in Daniel 9:27 occurred after the (marriage) covenant (betrothal )... was broken.... and the world “followed in like manner” that forced the overspreading of that abomination, and that judgment continued ....even (UP) to... the consummation = where it was sealed ...afterwards ... in a state of a broken covenant = a death sentence
John 5:43
I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.
quote:
I have no idea what you are getting from this.
If the virgin was raped in the sense of being forced in Deut 28 then the judgment would have followed in the likeness of Daniel 9 ... and would have caused an overspreading of that abomination among the Children of Israel....there is no evidence that Moses considered that rape; mentioned in some translations; as being forced, otherwise.... he would have made a very different determination
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 condone rape? - 10/12/2009 4:24:24 PM
|
|
|
GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
|
Gypsy,
The scripture in Daniel is not about marriage. So, I don't know how you relate "context" of the two passages.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 condone rape? - 10/12/2009 4:34:39 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 2927
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sonrise
There is no option, read it again: Deuteronomy 22:28-29
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver.
It doesn't say, "The man can, if he feels like it, pay 50 shekels and take her as his wife." It is a commandment. Also, there is nothing in this verse anywhere that mentions an option for the woman.
Of course the "rapist" has no option, if he is found guilty. The prohibition of divorce makes that clear. However, if we look at the words it is not absolutely clear whether this commandment overrides the commandment regarding parental authority with regard to consent. Maybe the lingists can clarify this.
(22:29) "Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days."
Bold designates specific words translated.
quote:
As for your last paragraph, I have to be honest and admit that I really don't understand a word of it. Again, as a Christian, I and I would imagine, all believers would be appalled if a judge ordered a rapist to marry his victim; there would be protest marches and a call for his impeachment; but you're telling me that God use to order it? I'm not buying it.
Last time I checked Adonai was not subject to a christian initiative process. In fact, we have a few examples of what happened when we tried to do that.
Now to the issue. Imagine you are not living in a society that takes from those who work and gives to those who don't. Rather, you live in a society where everyone lives by the sweat of his brow and a subsistance living is provided only based on the willingness of people to follow Adonai's commandments regarding giving to the poor. In this society, is it better to leave the woman to fend for herself, require the father to continue to take care of her and possibly her child, or require the "rapist" to provide for her for the rest of her life?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/12/2009 4:44:29 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 condone rape? - 10/12/2009 7:40:47 PM
|
|
|
LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2231
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Gypsy,
The scripture in Daniel is not about marriage.
So, I don't know how you relate "context" of the two passages.
quote:
So, I don't know how you relate "context" of the two passages.
By covenant
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 condone rape? - 10/12/2009 7:53:25 PM
|
|
|
GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Gypsy,
The scripture in Daniel is not about marriage.
So, I don't know how you relate "context" of the two passages.
quote:
So, I don't know how you relate "context" of the two passages.
By covenant
Okay, but you are comparing apples to oranges by virtue of semantics.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
