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Is it ethical? - 10/6/2009 2:35:14 AM
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PitaKat
Posts: 133
Joined: 7/23/2009
From: Eastern WA
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Just wondering if you all thought it ethical or not to breed dogs for a profit. I know many christians who do this, dog people use the term backyard breeder, but I got my dog from the pound and there are a lot of dogs there that do not have homes. Its sad to look at all the homeless pooches and know that people are purposely breeding more. At this point I think it's un-ethical to breed cats when there are so many who get put down because there's no homes for them, and I'm starting to think the same for dogs... What do you think?
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RE: Is it ethical? - 10/6/2009 2:43:22 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 360
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I agree--though I suppose if (IF) we ever got to where no one was breeding actual breed dogs (and I understand the appeal), we might want to reassess. In the meantime the good news for breed lovers is that there are rescue shelters that specialize in particular breeds.
btw, this is my website. I'm a dog-lover!
www.nutz.ca/luckydog/
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RE: Is it ethical? - 10/6/2009 8:06:24 AM
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Kerrlaw
Posts: 6681
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From: Big Orange Country
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I pray every day for the rescue of stray cats and dogs. My four cats were all from the shelter or the street, but I have owned purebred cats.
Bubba, pictured at left, was the best animal who ever lived, and was a purebred Maine Coon and was worth 10,000 times what I paid for him.
While I hope that all pet owners would find it in their heart to adopt and, please, spay and neuter, I see nothing unethical in raising animals for sale.
_____________________________
That which does not kill us makes us fatter. ~ crankius
Coffee sinners lovers click here.
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RE: Is it ethical? - 10/6/2009 9:56:03 AM
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mvic
Posts: 1888
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Let's consider what is the problem here. Breeding per se? People breed many animals: dogs, cats, horses (for racing), cattle, various birds, rabbits, fish etc ... etc ... All for sale for profit of course.
Is the problem the breeding itself, or the continuous quest for perfection and pedigree?
Of course there are many non-pedigree stray dogs and cats and we should in preference adopt one of these as a pet instead of a pedigree in-bred animal. But, (speaking for the UK only), my experience is that it is very very difficult to adopt a pet from these animal shelters.
Most insist on a home visit to see where/how you live. Others insist that you go to them for a period of weeks to take dogs for a walk and then they (not you) decide which dog is suitable for you; and indeed whether they will give you a dog in the first place. After a number of visits they may decide you're not fit to have a dog at all. Other shelters insist that after they've given you a dog they have the right to visit you un-announced at their choice and intervals thereafter to check the dog/cat is doing OK. Whilst other shelters will give you a dog if you wave a cheque book at them.
The result being that these shelters have several dogs/cats seeking a home; yet they remain there waiting for an adoptive owner to jump through the many hoops put in their way before getting a dog.
In fairness, the shelters (which rely on charitable donations to exist, and are staffed by unpaid volunteers) are doing their best to protect the animals in their care from thoughtless owners who would not look after them properly. But where is the dividing line between too many checks of potential owners or giving the pet in exchange for a generous financial donation?
Hence the moral/ethical dilemma. Too many strays. The alternative to shelters is leaving them all to roam the streets - which is impracticable in many respects. In the meantime, we continue to breed pedigree dogs/cats etc ... for profit.
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RE: Is it ethical? - 10/6/2009 10:12:32 AM
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moon_mouse
Posts: 435
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The only option for getting a dog that I believe to be totally unethical is purchasing from a pet store. Almost all pet stores get their animals from large scale puppy mills who treat breeding dogs as puppy factories and their offspring as nothing more than objects, of which a certain amount of "spoilage" (death) is acceptable.
Purchasing from a breeder is a gray area. There are good breeders who socialize their animals well and take care not to carelessly pass on undesirable genetic traits. However, most "average joe" family/hobby breeders don't have the expertise to do this well. Many breeders will tell you that they don't make most of their income from their dogs. Properly breeding and raising dogs isn't a high margin business. That said, there can be some good reasons to buy from a breeder. Some potential owners have allergy issues or need a dog of a very specific size or temperament, and a good breeder breeder can provide more of a guarantee of that than a shelter.
However, IMO the first option of any potential pet owner should be adoption from a shelter or rescue. You can get purebred dogs from rescues. With rescues that keep animals in foster homes, you get the benefit of the animal having been in a home environment, and its behavior being observed, so you know a little more about what you are getting into. Many rescues (including the one I adopted my sweet little Katie from) provide a lot of support after the adoption for training. Unfortunately, many pet adopters want a "perfect" pet immediately. They don't want to take the time to work on training and behavior issues. Which is a shame, because there are few things as rewarding as helping an animal get a second chance.
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RE: Is it ethical? - 10/6/2009 10:22:55 AM
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moon_mouse
Posts: 435
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
The result being that these shelters have several dogs/cats seeking a home; yet they remain there waiting for an adoptive owner to jump through the many hoops put in their way before getting a dog.
In fairness, the shelters (which rely on charitable donations to exist, and are staffed by unpaid volunteers) are doing their best to protect the animals in their care from thoughtless owners who would not look after them properly. But where is the dividing line between too many checks of potential owners or giving the pet in exchange for a generous financial donation?
I've heard this criticism a number of times, that shelters do too many checks for "just an animal". However, since adopting from a small dog rescue and joining their Yahoo group, I now understand it a little better.
The primary reasons dogs come into our group are issues that result from failure to train or improper training: house training issues, nipping, jumping, barking. Every time an animal is surrendered it becomes that much more difficult for it to find a forever home. So, the rescue has to be certain that the potential owner is prepared to do the work to teach the animal how to live with a human family.
We also run into the problem of people wanting the wrong dog for the wrong reasons. People want "teacup" yorkies, without realizing the medical issues and fragility of these dogs who have been bred down far too small. People think a cute little dog would be nice for their cute little kid, without thinking about the fact that small children can easily hurt the dog, or frighten it, resulting in a defensive fear bite.
There are some rescues that anthropomorphize their dogs and go overboard, but it's fairly easy to recognize those by the language of their websites or talking to their workers. But, in my experience, most people just simply don't understand why these checks are necessary. If they heard some of the stories I've heard in my 2 years of being associated with this group, they'd have a little more patience. After all, what's a 2 or 3 week adoption process for an animal you may have 10 years?
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RE: Is it ethical? - 10/6/2009 10:43:28 AM
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sharonjef2007
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I look at it this way......if you are looking for a dog as a show dog or that kind of thing, pedigree is going to be important. In most cases, you are not going to find a winner at the pound. Also, in many other kinds of licensed competitions such as flyball and such, where the dog can't be altered or fixed.
If you adopt a dog, it is already altered or you have to agree to fix them. So, if you are not looking to do what is listed above, there is no reason to buy from a breeder. But, we do need to be very careful in adopting dogs as well. We need to know more about the dogs we adopt. We need to be prepared to care for dogs with issues in many cases.
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RE: Is it ethical? - 10/6/2009 4:22:32 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6377
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From: Dothan, AL
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I currently have two dogs. I paid for one, a purebred Labrador Retriever, I chose her for the breed's size and temperament. I got the second from an animal shelter and she is half Lab. Both were spayed while still young.
The purebred, while she will bark at strangers, has never attacked another animal. The part Lab has killed two cats, one belonged to a neighbor and the other to my wife, as well as, numerous squirrels and at least two snakes.
With the purebred, I was reasonably sure of the kind of dog I'd get. I took a chance with the mixed breed and, while I love her as much as the other one, I got a little more than I expected.
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RE: Is it ethical? - 10/6/2009 5:06:01 PM
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bondserv65
Posts: 317
Joined: 5/1/2009
From: Chicago
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PitaKat
Just wondering if you all thought it ethical or not to breed dogs for a profit. I know many christians who do this, dog people use the term backyard breeder, but I got my dog from the pound and there are a lot of dogs there that do not have homes. Its sad to look at all the homeless pooches and know that people are purposely breeding more. At this point I think it's un-ethical to breed cats when there are so many who get put down because there's no homes for them, and I'm starting to think the same for dogs... What do you think?
All 4 of our kitties are rescues but i really do NOT think it is unethical for people to make their living however they can...within the limits of the law of course. Those of us who prefer to rescue pets do not HAVE to give them our money. Those who insist upon paying someone who makes a profit from selling pets should be giving their money to your christian brothers and sisters shouldn't they?
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RE: Is it ethical? - 10/6/2009 5:16:50 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6377
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Harvie
Our local shelter puts down 200 cats and kittens a day during the summer. The numbers for dogs and puppies is just as sad and shocking. I could not, in good conscience, breed cats or dogs knowing that I may be contributing to those unconscionable euthanasia rates.
If I buy a purebred dog that I want, one that I will love and care for, how will that diminish a single cat or dog death in a shelter? That reminds me of my mom telling me that I should eat everything on my plate because there were children in India going to bed hungry. I sincerely don't see the correlation.
BTW, by "animal shelter", I meant our local Humane Society that rescues as many dogs and cats as possible from the city Animal Control department before they are euthanized.
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RE: Is it ethical? - 10/6/2009 5:33:24 PM
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Mollymouser
Posts: 3951
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: california, land of the happy cows
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: Harvie
Our local shelter puts down 200 cats and kittens a day during the summer. The numbers for dogs and puppies is just as sad and shocking. I could not, in good conscience, breed cats or dogs knowing that I may be contributing to those unconscionable euthanasia rates.
If I buy a purebred dog that I want, one that I will love and care for, how will that diminish a single cat or dog death in a shelter? That reminds me of my mom telling me that I should eat everything on my plate because there were children in India going to bed hungry. I sincerely don't see the correlation.
BTW, by "animal shelter", I meant our local Humane Society that rescues as many dogs and cats as possible from the city Animal Control department before they are euthanized.
Euty, I understand that many people want purebred dogs -- and buying one for a reputable breeder is the best way to obtain one. But for every reputable breeder out there, there are dozens of "backyard breeders" who breed indiscriminately (often more puppies than there are buyers) ... and these puppies then get dumped, unaltered ... and the cycle of irresponsible breeding continues.
Why could it be considered, from an animal rescue perspective, not ideal to buy a dog from a breeder?
Because if you buy a dog, you didn't rescue one in a shelter. And dogs that don't get adopted from our local SPCA within a few days get killed ... to make room for the dozens of other dogs that need homes.
Because animal shelters are already filled with purebred dogs, needing homes... no need to buy one from a breeder. And there are even breed specific rescues! (I foster dogs for the lab rescue and the golden retriever rescue, for example.) www.petfinder.com is a great website which lets people search for specific dog breeds in rescues and in shelters....
Because animal shelters, by law (in my state) can only adopt out dogs that are spayed and neutered. No such requirement exists for breeders -- so people buy dogs and some of them (the less than responsible ones) let them breed indescriminately ... once again filling up shelters.
It's all connected ... and it's all a direct result of people failing to spay and neuter their animals before allowing them to make baby animals.
Don't get me wrong ... there ARE responsible breeders. And there ARE responsible people who buy dogs from breeders. But here, in central California, we have some of the highest animal euthanasia rates in the US ... and it's clear that the irresponsible breeders and irresponsible pet owners are in the overwhelming majority.
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RE: Is it ethical? - 10/6/2009 5:44:11 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6377
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Harvie
Euty, I understand that many people want purebred dogs -- and buying one for a reputable breeder is the best way to obtain one. But for every reputable breeder out there, there are dozens of "backyard breeders" who breed indiscriminately (often more puppies than there are buyers) ... and these puppies then get dumped, unaltered ... and the cycle of irresponsible breeding continues.
I agree with what you are saying, but I not only took a great deal of time in deciding on the type dog I wanted, I had known the breeder for about 15 years and looked around their facilities to make sure how they kept them. I also have AKC papers with my dog, couldn't get that with an abandoned dog.
quote:
Because animal shelters are already filled with purebred dogs, needing homes... no need to buy one from a breeder. And there are even breed specific rescues! (I foster dogs for the lab rescue and the golden retriever rescue, for example.) www.petfinder.com is a great website which lets people search for specific dog breeds in rescues and in shelters....
But I wanted to raise the Lab from a pup and not deal with abuse that might never be overcome. I also wanted to know the breeder and the pups environs. The Labs I saw at our Humane Society were very mature and I was advised not to buy the best looking of the bunch because he was anti-social with other dogs.
quote:
Because animal shelters, by law (in my state) can only adopt out dogs that are spayed and neutered. No such requirement exists for breeders -- so people buy dogs and some of them (the less than responsible ones) let them breed indescriminately ... once again filling up shelters.
I'm very peculiar about such things. I wanted to make the decision as to whether I wanted to spay my Lab. That decision would have been denied me by getting one from the Humane Society. I chose to have her spayed, but it was entirely my choice.
quote:
Don't get me wrong ... there ARE responsible breeders. And there ARE responsible people who buy dogs from breeders. But here, in central California, we have some of the highest animal euthanasia rates in the US ... and it's clear that the irresponsible breeders and irresponsible pet owners are in the overwhelming majority.
I live in Alabama.
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Is it ethical? - 10/6/2009 6:23:03 PM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 4194
Joined: 12/30/2007
From: Inside my head
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kerrlaw
I pray every day for the rescue of stray cats and dogs. My four cats were all from the shelter or the street, but I have owned purebred cats.
Bubba, pictured at left, was the best animal who ever lived, and was a purebred Maine Coon and was worth 10,000 times what I paid for him.
While I hope that all pet owners would find it in their heart to adopt and, please, spay and neuter, I see nothing unethical in raising animals for sale.
I agree with this. Also with much of what mvic, moon-mouse, harvie & euty posted.
Puppymills and petshops are, imo, the worst offenders. Backyard breeders can do much damage, as well. Reputable breeders generally have their puppies placed before they are even born.
I rarely see pure-bred dogs in humane societies. Not to say they aren't there because I once adopted a Great Dane from one. But they are by far the exception and not the rule. And I've volunteered at the humane societies in 2 counties over the years.
Buying a pure-bred dog gives one a far better understanding of what one is getting. Different breeds have been bred for different things and that plays a very big part in behavior. You may not know that the cute puppy at the humane society is part Terrier and be furious when he digs up your yard going after moles and chipmunks. That is one of the biggest factors in pets needing to be re-homed. That the pet does something that one of it's progenitors was bred purposely to do and that behavior is unacceptable to someone.
Breed also has a great deal to do with temperament. A Lab has a VERY different temperament from a Giant Schnauzer. That plays itself out in mixed breed dogs, too, as pointed out by Euty and his half-Lab.
Unfortunately all we say here is preaching to the choir. Most people are simply uneducated. There are STILL many, many people who believe that a dog shouldn't be spayed until after her first litter or that letting their dog breed and have puppies will be fun and teach their children something. It's a heartbreaking situation but pure-bred dog breeders are not at fault for it.
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RE: Is it ethical? - 10/7/2009 1:01:45 PM
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Kerrlaw
Posts: 6681
Joined: 5/24/2006
From: Big Orange Country
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quote:
Buying a pure-bred dog gives one a far better understanding of what one is getting. Different breeds have been bred for different things and that plays a very big part in behavior.
Very good point Lion.
Some people still use dogs for work. Farmers, the blind, hunters, the police, and many others. Knowing what the characteristics of the breed are, and that they will be consistent, is very important.
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That which does not kill us makes us fatter. ~ crankius
Coffee sinners lovers click here.
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